Nelson Mandela has died

hairy j wrote:

Rickler wrote:

Diddums.

I was merely pointing out Hairy doesn't know his history.

You shouldn't confuse  the displaying of two contrasting viewpoints within the same family as being the same as your vulgar 'Westboro" trolling on my Birthday thread last week.

He did commit acts of violence prior to being sent to prison however, when he became truly influential, post release, he led a peaceful campaign to end apartheid. It would have been an easy option to resent the white race and to begin a violent coup. Mandela therefore didn't resort to violence. That's why I compared him to Gandhi.
It would be nice if you could read a thread rather than look on the left hand side of the screen at the names of posters.

Mock beat you to the punch.

I have obviously read the thread, as I pointed out the contrast between you and your old man, and bantered with Mock about the very point you make.

Clueless as usual.

Tenpole on twitter

@CouncillorTudor: I've asked for a book of condolence to be opened today at @plymouthcc. Details of where and when will follow in due course.

Unbelievable.

his timing was poor, they cancelled question time!!!!!!!!!!!

Great man assuredly, much respect to the man for retaining his dignity for 27 years in prison yet to compare him to Ghandi? I know they lived in different countries in different times but the ANC were brutal and although Willie was his ex I can never forget images of young blck kids wearing the Mandela necklace (a car tyre placed around the neck and set fire to). I think if you are a bit older you remember the bad things that went along with Mandela not just the post penal idolatry. Funny that some people think that somehow Luke Mcormick should be made to suffer for the rest of his life yet Mandela should be canonised because he stopped being the terrorist that he was. The treatment that the blacks recieved because of apartheid was wrong but there was terrible brutality on both sides, Ghandi for me was a true icon for the world and if you are looking for a figurehead for the future then Mandela doesn't come close to him. Non violence innit.

I wonder if Gandhi or Nelson could have sorted out the war between Hairy/Sensi and Rickler/Punchie/SS68?

You're being stupid now GS, I have been on the phone to Cofi Annan and he said were on our own.  

Iggy wrote:

Great man assuredly, much respect to the man for retaining his dignity for 27 years in prison yet to compare him to Ghandi? I know they lived in different countries in different times but the ANC were brutal and although Willie was his ex I can never forget images of young blck kids wearing the Mandela necklace (a car tyre placed around the neck and set fire to). I think if you are a bit older you remember the bad things that went along with Mandela not just the post penal idolatry. Funny that some people think that somehow Luke Mcormick should be made to suffer for the rest of his life yet Mandela should be canonised because he stopped being the terrorist that he was. The treatment that the blacks recieved because of apartheid was wrong but there was terrible brutality on both sides, Ghandi for me was a true icon for the world and if you are looking for a figurehead for the future then Mandela doesn't come close to him. Non violence innit.

That had nothing to do with Nelson Mandela, who was still in prison, but more the fault of Winnie Mandela who was an evil bitch and she endorsed the "necklacing" and was happy to let the world know that her and her supporters were using this barbaric practice.

From the very start of Nelson Mandela's imprisoning he was exactly the same as he was once he was released. He preached to more radical blacks that there were many whites who supported their cause and were not the enemy and that he wanted a united South Africa and not a blacks state, which is what he implemented when he was released. The Rainbow Nation.

That bitch Thatcher had the opportunity to help their cause but she was vehemently opposed to his release and considered him to be a terrorist and she classed South Africa under apartheid as an ally!

Much like our esteemed leader David Cameron who was a prominent member of a group called the Federation of Conservative Students who produced "Hang Mandela" posters and leaflets in the 80's. He was also involved in a PW Botha sponsored anti sanctions fact finding mission to South Africa which was very much pro-apartheid. David Cameron's reaction to Mandela's death is the biggest piss-take of all, "A great light has gone out in the world," "Mandela was a towering figure in our time, a legend in life and now in death-a true global hero"

Any suggestion that blacks were every bit as brutal towards whites in South Africa is a feckin joke frankly. South Africa was a country in turmoil for one reason only, that was apartheid. It was every bit as bad as the treatment of Jews by Hitler and yet from that Mandela ensured that once it was ended that was history and a new chapter began where everyone was equal, as it should be, the feckin basic principle that should be observed everywhere.

Mandela was a terrorist inspired by Castro and Guevara who came good in the end for peace. Thats pretty it in a nutshell.

Angry wrote:

Mandela was a terrorist inspired by Castro and Guevara who came good in the end for peace. Thats pretty it in a nutshell.

Your nuts must be very small.

knecht wrote:

Angry wrote:

Mandela was a terrorist inspired by Castro and Guevara who came good in the end for peace. Thats pretty it in a nutshell.

Your nuts must be very small.

go read up and check for yourself if you want to deny it.

Angry wrote:

If you read the stuff below that video on Youtube you will read that the poster also wanted to clearly indicate that the white guy standing next to Mandela was a Jew!   Take a look at the rest of his posts. Also the voice-over is clearly a white South African - or thereabouts - maybe I'm wrong to put two and two together..... Maybe there are actual facts there but he clearly has an agenda to pursue. One wonders about the accuracy of his translation: anyone here speak Xhosa?

I have read Long Walk to Freedom. I haven't read any other biographies. I have read around the subject. I have been interested since the 60's as I had South African relatives. I also met a particularly twisted South African when I was travelling in 1971 - that's stayed with me ever since.

The consensus is that his methods were civil disobedience, legal challenges, strikes and non-cooperation. There was a group of the ANC who wanted more direct & violent action. It is claimed he worked to dilute their methods. I am sure that there were occasions that he turned a blind eye to their actions for reasons of political expediency and compromise in order to maintain control. Who knows?

What would you have done in his situation?

knecht wrote:

Angry wrote:

If you read the stuff below that video on Youtube you will read that the poster also wanted to clearly indicate that the white guy standing next to Mandela was a Jew!   Take a look at the rest of his posts. Also the voice-over is clearly a white South African - or thereabouts - maybe I'm wrong to put two and two together..... Maybe there are actual facts there but he clearly has an agenda to pursue. One wonders about the accuracy of his translation: anyone here speak Xhosa?

you can try and deny it all you wish knecht the fact is if you go and check you wont find one xhosa speaker that will tell you he isnt singing kill the whites at all.

Worth pointing out he was a founding member of the MK and this was their oath.

knecht wrote:

I have read Long Walk to Freedom. I haven't read any other biographies. I have read around the subject. I have been interested since the 60's as I had South African relatives. I also met a particularly twisted South African when I was travelling in 1971 - that's stayed with me ever since.

The consensus is that his methods were civil disobedience, legal challenges, strikes and non-cooperation. There was a group of the ANC who wanted more direct & violent action. It is claimed he worked to dilute their methods. I am sure that there were occasions that he turned a blind eye to their actions for reasons of political expediency and compromise in order to maintain control. Who knows?

What would you have done in his situation?

Apartheid was very wrong as it was very wrong for the usa and uk to back it, if it wasnt him someone else would have taken up the fight im sure. Doesnt mean we have to resort to terrorism to get our way should we all hail gerry adams for resorting to terrorism in northern ireland to ger sinn fein in power there?

I dont dislike mandela he did do alot of good but i just want accept people portraying him as a saint when he wasnt.

The anticipated Mandela love in from the likes of Hairy and others, I read this more balanced response earlier.


"With the death of Nelson Mandela and the rather predictable international response, one is again reminded of the difficulty the human race has with objectivity and consistency.

Mandela, having before freely admitted his guilt, seems to have successfully erased the significance of his unsavoury past actions from history. To the world media and well supported by the ignorance of the many the ‘hero’ is all that remains. In effect he has managed to ‘un-kill’ all those whose deaths he was responsible for through the iconic transformation that has graced his life since that time. Perhaps, also significant in this re-birth is the absence of regret and continued justification of his part in the violence of his youth.  One also has to wonder whether or not he actually achieved anything other than his own deification or was the demise of Apartheid and the development of South Africa more of an international effort and due in far greater part to the involvement of others than it was to the gentle old man with the bloodied hands.

There is a striking comparison between Mandela on the one hand and Bin Laden on the other. Both were terrorists to the world and freedom fighters to their own supporters. It’s not clear as to which of them caused the deaths of the most innocent people but it is, perhaps, a moot point.  

One was lawfully imprisoned by a ‘hated regime’, treated humanely and released unharmed to become president of South Africa whilst the other was denied a trial, or indeed any due process and was summarily executes unlawfully, in a foreign state, by the self proclaimed bastion of freedom, democracy and law. Far from being the rescue of civilisation Bin Laden’s murder amplifies the willingness of the human condition to easily rationalise even the most blatant inconsistencies in law and morality.

However, we do not see a clamouring for the impeachment of Obama for murder despite it being in full view and we hear nothing of the atrocities Mandela committed, not only for his cause but also for the furtherance of his own influence and power. It’s a neat trick by both of them but how does one pull it off?

These instances aren’t unique by any stretch as former Irish terrorists with a similarly whitewashed past now hold governmental positions so there is clearly a way to brush out the unwanted but as in Bin Laden’s case there may not have been time enough or a supported cause sufficiently cohesive to blind the world to his involvement in the murder of innocent people.

Having established that it is clearly possible to get past a ‘past’ the question must remain should it be so? What might the relatives feel about a loved child blown up or an innocent Zulu hacked to death on the orders of Mandela? How can the international community ever come to terms with the blatant breach and disregard of international law by the American state? How much justification does that latter act bestow upon the potential for yet another presidential assassination? If a country can ignore their own laws then perhaps the door is wide open for others to follow suit.

I’m not sure there is a solution or even an answer. We are flawed beings and driven more by emotion than rationality. If the mood is right we can see what we wish to see even if that is glory in terrorism and duty in murder. It is not often alluded to but, perhaps, the greatest act of brutality and eradication of human life at a stroke was also by that same fledgling American state when Trueman gave the order to drop the bomb.

As for Mandela it will be, perhaps, the souls of his innocent victims who may make the final judgement and, who knows, perhaps atonement is possible, but one thing is sure and that is we are not in the best position to judge now."




Mandela was a vicious murdering bastard very much in the mold of McGuiness, Adams, Mugabe, Pinochet and yes Bin Laden, while he was inside, Winnie and his followers maintained a reign of terror which was not even close to entirely political, OK, so he had a go at sewing some seeds of peace when he came out, but that campaign was financed by that nice man Mr. Suharto and his chum Mr. Gadaffy Duck who Mandela refused to criticise and actually helped out on numerous occasions by using his 'sainted' rep to smooth things.

God loves a sinner come to repent and Mandela certainly gave that impression but the level of mawkish, fawnage from so many just makes me want to puke. He is another dead terrorist/freedom fighter who put plenty into the ground before he got there, justifiable cause, probably, justifiable methods, not a prayer.

Greenskin wrote:

I wonder if Gandhi or Nelson could have sorted out the war between Hairy/Sensi and Rickler/Punchie/SS68?

Nelson would have done, he'd have hung the feckers from a yard arm, Mandela would would have delegated it to a bunch of lads with some 145x13s and a can of petrol, Gandhi would have give up and topped himself.

I think if you'd been born under oppression and violence with no rights at all and treated as sub-human, you'd be a little tetchy. Calling Mandela a terrorist depends upon your World view and attitude - one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. The sun never set on the British Empire at one point - that's because we invaded everywhere we could with guns and ships. South Africa itself was taken by the white South Africans as they beat our lot in a war - weren't those white South Africans terrorists too during The Boer War?

I am not going to get into an argument on history with anybody I can't be bothered but Jock you rather made me point by ignoring his questionable activities and pointed out the wrongs against him by everybody else, I admit he is an inspirational figure, my point was Ghandi is more of a hero in my eyes for his total non violent lifestyle.

hairy j wrote:

South Africa itself was taken by the white South Africans as they beat our lot in a war - weren't those white South Africans terrorists too during The Boer War?

Uh durr, seems Mummy's little soldier wasn't paying attention in history classes, we won the Second Boer War, div.

I do wish clueless fuckwits wouldn't try to set themselves up as experts when they clearly know fook all about the issue.

Whatever - the black people were there first and were then ruled by......TERRORISTS! Sorry, in Tis' view, they were there to help the black folk by taking their land and resources and making them'live in towns made of old bits of wood.

My understanding is that the blacks were not there first, the area known as the Cape is seperated from the rest of Africa by mountains and desert, the Dutch were there first. Zulus lived to the east in Natal. Natives either moved or were bought to the Cape to work on the farms. The English pinched the Cape from the Dutch, hence the Boer war.

Just seen a group of dyslexic Africans laying a wreath at the door of Nissan Main Dealers.

SA, a HIV crime infested shithole 17K murders a year.So he achieved what ?

hairy j wrote:

Whatever - the black people were there first and were then ruled by......TERRORISTS! Sorry, in Tis' view, they were there to help the black folk by taking their land and resources and making them'live in towns made of old bits of wood.

For someone who is supposed to have a university degree you are one seriously dumb feck.

Apartheid was an abhorrent regime, but less people used to die every year and had it not been for the PC world's boycott the economy would have been far stronger than it is today, people in general would have had a far higher standard of living, but hey, democracy is such a good thing, just ask the people of Zimbabwe, Iraq or Syria.