Nelson Mandela has died

As an aside Ghandi also started his working life in South Africa, it was here he started on his political campaign to end discrimination with non violent means he was twice jailed in SA before returning to India.

Iggy wrote:

The justification of violence is another debate really Sam, I am glad now though that Mandelas life is being viewed in the right context, I am firmly of the belief that a lot of people are happy to airbrush out the violence from Mandelas past because of his later life. I have already stated that I found and still find Mandela an inspirational figure, for me the amount and level of violence used by the ANC and various groups are hard (if not impossible) to justify although you could argue that Mandela wasn't wholly responsible for all the violence but at no time in his life did he condem any of it. I think that a role model for all the world to follow should not have been party to terrorism or should at least publicly put it behind him and renounce the use of it. As an example would you say that as the police in this country use guns then it would be ok for political activists in this country to use guns? Hard line to draw that one is.

But in this country we have democracy and we have equal civil rights and the ability to change our leaders if we want to. The black people in South Africa did not have anything resembling that. They had no platform, they had no rights, they had no voice, they were treated as less than human. When they tried non-violent protest and civil action, violence was used against them by the government. They had no voice in the media to make these protests heard.

Angry, my point about pacifism was not meant as an insult or name calling but to pithily demonstrate the point that some wars are justifiable. I think the war from the ANC on the white supremacist government was a justifiable war for the following reasons: it was in retaliation to government force, it was for an undeniably just cause, it was only done after all possible alternatives had been taken away from them.

When the British government were faced with a similar situation in WW2 we decided to go to war and yeah, innocent people were killed as a result of us standing up to Hitler. But that was Hitler's fault for being what he was, not the fault of the people who waged a justifiable war against such an evil force. I see the ANC civil war on their government as being analogous in that respect.

You say it's nearly impossible to justify deaths from ANC offensives. No-one's denying how horrific it was but some wars have no alternative but to be fought. The alternative was continued subjugation and a life not worth living for many, many years to come. Imo, the only justification for arguing against the ANC civil war is if you're a full-on pacifist and if you believe that no cause is worth fighting a war over. If any cause is worth a war and if any cause showed greater evidence of having previously exhausted all alternatives then surely this is the one.

GreenSam wrote:

When the British government were faced with a similar situation in WW2 we decided to go to war

This pretty much sums up that entire post, the drivel that passes for educated or informed opinion is a self perpetuating testimony to the abject inadequacies of the educational system, now hugely compounded by free access to th'interwe. Back in the day some prof of History could have sorted it out with a "one for the ink" out of twenty, now it is here for all to see for all time, festering in its own wrongness and irrelevance, gawd help us all.

Lord Tisdale wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

When the British government were faced with a similar situation in WW2 we decided to go to war

This pretty much sums up that entire post, the drivel that passes for educated or informed opinion is a self perpetuating testimony to the abject inadequacies of the educational system, now hugely compounded by free access to th'interwe. Back in the day some prof of History could have sorted it out with a "one for the ink" out of twenty, now it is here for all to see for all time, festering in its own wrongness and irrelevance, gawd help us all.

Please enlighten us mere mortals who can only wait on the pearls of wisdom to fall from the divine omniscient mouth.

Both Gandhi and Mandella could be classed as failures as the country's they "liberated" have descended into chaos.

If you class a huge industrial power like India as chaos then I guess you are right Pete?

Iggy wrote:

If you class a huge industrial power like India as chaos then I guess you are right Pete?

Thinking of the thousands who died in the split with Pakistan and the continuing situation in Kashmir

Ghandi was actually assassinated over the partitioning of India and Pakistan by a Hindu who said that he had let them down, Ghandi was always against the partitioning but did a u turn at the last minute because he feared massive bloodshed if it didn't happen. I don't think it's fair to blame Ghandi for a Hindu Muslim split, he tried and got shot for his troubles. I would have to agree that the partition was a complete debacle but it doesn't have a lot in common with most of India.

At least something funny has come out of all this, anybody else see the signer for the deaf at the memorial? Funny as fook!

pepsipete wrote:

Iggy wrote:

If you class a huge industrial power like India as chaos then I guess you are right Pete?

Thinking of the thousands who died in the split with Pakistan and the continuing situation in Kashmir

Hardly down to Goosey, he didn't create religious nut baggery.

Not sure India is much of a "huge industrial power", more of a total cluster fook where the ruling classes rip off the Billies even worse than they do in the West. The BRICS, didn't some dick win a Nobel Prize for coining that?

Brazil, should be phenomenally wealthy, massive issues with poverty and violence, proper democracy.
Russia, a few fabulously wealthy users in a corrupt system, millions cold with not enough food slowly drinking themselves to death, fake democracy.
India, a few fabulously wealthy users in a corrupt system, a billion scraping a living in shitholes, another proper democracy.
South Africa, see Brazil.
China, the only economic super power, the US is their bitch, don't even wave at democracy but they do hang the corrupt officials they catch.

Anybody see the running theme there?

Mandela was a duplicitous murdering bastard who morphed into a duplicitous bastard who ignored all the murdering bastards, the media whoreage and re-writers of history who allow this to go unmentioned should be ashamed of themselves, the Danish slag with Bammy and Camoron did us a favour by showing even the dimmest what the eulogisers really thought about the whole thing.

Iggy wrote:

Comedy gold Sam, just pure comedy gold! Sorry didn't get any further with that post.  :lol!

Ok, I get your point- kind of. I'm not saying that Britain is a democratic utopia where all rights are perfectly observed. Far from it. I'm very far to the left myself and I know with stuff like the Cops Off Campus campaigns and the shootings of Mark Duggan and Jean Charles De Menezes that the police are far from perfect angles and innocent people get killed by authorities here. Believe me when I say that I'm no mug on stuff like that.

However, if you are really trying to draw equivalence between that and the persecution that black South Africans faced and use that logic to say that those black South African freedom fighters should be condemned for using violence because we'd condemn it over here then I think you're on another planet. No this country isn't a democratic haven. But it is not a fascist, apartheid, totalitarian state where dissenting blacks are butchered like South Africa was at that time. Look at the Sharpsville Massacre. Do you think that will be happening in London anytime soon? Black South Africans had no platform whatsoever. They had ZERO voice in the media. When they tried a peaceful protest they were met with legalized, state sponsored and unapologetic mass murder for doing nothing bar exercise democracy.

Now if you take that situation and use it to draw equivalence with Britain by saying 'well we'd condemn it over here so why not over there', that's the answer why. Because the total and utter lack of democratic voice that they had was unimaginable. They only had two options left. One was to continue living on their knees in utter subjugation and the other was to go to violent, military war with their government. I think they made the right choice and due to the evils of apartheid there wasn't a better one on the table. And those two options, for all the evils, lies and corruption of the British establishment are by no means the only two options left for British dissidents to take.

Lord Tisdale wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

When the British government were faced with a similar situation in WW2 we decided to go to war

This pretty much sums up that entire post, the drivel that passes for educated or informed opinion is a self perpetuating testimony to the abject inadequacies of the educational system, now hugely compounded by free access to th'interwe. Back in the day some prof of History could have sorted it out with a "one for the ink" out of twenty, now it is here for all to see for all time, festering in its own wrongness and irrelevance, gawd help us all.

Cheers. Why am I wrong though?

GreenSam wrote:

Cheers. Why am I wrong though?

Because your argument was fatuous in the extreme, Mandela was not a democratiser he was a committed Communist whose hero was Fidel Castro with Gaddaffy and Suharto as his role models, the objectives of the ANC and more particularly the his love child the MK were not to free the people from bondage but simply to ensure that he and his friends were the ones with the keys.

The media whores and revisionist historians go on about Sharpeville and how the apartheid regime killed black people yet completely ignore the hundreds of times more black people Mandela's ANC have murdered since, all yer poor Joe 'black' Public in Soweto did was swap a white tyrant for a black one and if we really want to pursue the racist theme a white farmer in Sarf is 1500 times more likely to be murdered than a white farmer in England, them boyz is killing the white folk too.

Mandela's ANC have pursued an aggressive policy of asset stripping the country for the mutual benefit of, yes you've guessed it, the ANC leadership and its cadres, all on Mandela's watch, while the world's leaders, who butchered more black sarfafricans through its sanctions policy than even the ANC has managed to date, sit by giggling like fools while some Danish slag takes a selfie.

Mandela did not come off the US terrorist watch list until he was 88 years old so somebody over there still thought he was worth keeping an eye on, not that they did anything to stop him from instituting one of the more regressive one party state systems on the continent of Africa, the fact that he was able to do it in the guise of a democracy says a lot for the man's abilities, there were and still are many saints involved in the struggle for the heart and soul of South Africa, Nelson Mandela was not one of them.

That's not to say of course that any one else could have done much better, Sarf is riven with tribal issues which might well be unsolvable. A relation of mine has been a senior exec with the Sarf Blood Service for some decades, as an aside I wouldn't recommend a transfusion if you get bit by a lion out there, you'd have a better long term future sticking with the lion, some years ago while he was starting out he had two guys doing a job for him, one a Xhosa and the other a Zulu, a promotion came available so he gave the job to the Xhosa who worked hard and was always on time rather than the Zulu who was a lazy useless feck, the following day the Xhosa's body was found in a dumpster and the Zulu just disappeared, plod did what they did for half an hour and then just chalked it up.

With that kind of attitude pretty much pervasive it might seem a little unkind to slate Mandela for not waving a magic wand, but the fact remains that despite all the talk neither he nor those that have followed him have made any real effort to improve the lot of the majority of Sarfs who live in abject poverty, that doesn't in my somewhat jaundiced view make him much worse than most political leaders of many of the more challenged countries of the world, but it don't make him no saint either.

Now where is Hairy to tell me the result of the Boer War?

knecht wrote:

Angry wrote:

If you read the stuff below that video on Youtube you will read that the poster also wanted to clearly indicate that the white guy standing next to Mandela was a Jew!   Take a look at the rest of his posts. Also the voice-over is clearly a white South African - or thereabouts - maybe I'm wrong to put two and two together..... Maybe there are actual facts there but he clearly has an agenda to pursue. One wonders about the accuracy of his translation: anyone here speak Xhosa?

I've now managed to find out about this song. The translation is actually "Kill the BOERS". That's certainly still a message of violence but, given the history, it's an understandable message. It was the ANC anthem. It can't be an accident that the translator of this video mis-translated it as "kill the white man". That carries many more unacceptable connotations. Methinks the poster of this song on youtube was intentionally creating misinformation on the assumption that the vast majority of viewers would not speak Xhosa or take the effort to find a translation. Funny old thing politics and race hate .....

knecht wrote:

knecht wrote:

Angry wrote:

If you read the stuff below that video on Youtube you will read that the poster also wanted to clearly indicate that the white guy standing next to Mandela was a Jew!   Take a look at the rest of his posts. Also the voice-over is clearly a white South African - or thereabouts - maybe I'm wrong to put two and two together..... Maybe there are actual facts there but he clearly has an agenda to pursue. One wonders about the accuracy of his translation: anyone here speak Xhosa?

I've now managed to find out about this song. The translation is actually "Kill the BOERS". That's certainly still a message of violence but, given the history, it's an understandable message. It was the ANC anthem. It can't be an accident that the translator of this video mis-translated it as "kill the white man". That carries many more unacceptable connotations. Methinks the poster of this song on youtube was intentionally creating misinformation on the assumption that the vast majority of viewers would not speak Xhosa or take the effort to find a translation. Funny old thing politics and race hate .....

boers are white farmers

keep digging

Angry wrote:

......
boers are white farmers

keep digging

Now tell me something I and most of the population don't know   . They became synonymous with oppression of black South Africa and thus were arguably worthy of songs of violence. The song wasn't about "whites" - it was about "Boers".

knecht wrote:

Angry wrote:

......
boers are white farmers

keep digging

Now tell me something I and most of the population don't know   . They became synonymous with oppression of black South Africa and thus were arguably worthy of songs of violence. The song wasn't about "whites" - it was about "Boers".

That has to be the lamest attempt to justify the singing of a song (written by mandela and elders of mk) vowing to kill whites because they happen to be boers even though they are the same lol.
I wonder if this tactic would have worked for Aung San Suu Kyi kill all the government's Army but not the karen rebels even though 80% of them where at some point in the burman army.

Question time from sarf Africa was pretty lively last night, I had to go to bed before the end but it looked like Dimbers was going to have to break out the bullwhips and tazers any minute. It seemed like the people, black and white, had no time for the ANC. They kept saying to the ANC woman that they weren't being listened to and the ANC woman's answer was that it could always be worse! At least you have a vote! (Or club to support). LOL. The people in power are there for the power, under the skin we are all the same.

knecht wrote:

Angry wrote:

......
boers are white farmers

keep digging

Now tell me something I and most of the population don't know   .

Well if you were to take a straw poll I would suggest the vast majority of the population of this country would have no idea who the Boer were.

The ANC regard all whites that are not card carrying members of the Communist party as Boer, your argument is as Angry points out, totally lame, it is a racist song, co written by a racist, being sung by a racist. He would have kissed Francois Pienaar's knob end on screen if he thought that would help the cause of the ANC, not the Sarfrican people, then got one of Winnie's crew to put a bullet in the back of his head if he thought he could get away with it.

You PC boys seem to have less and less a grasp on reality as time goes by.

Lord Tisdale wrote:

......
Well if you were to take a straw poll I would suggest the vast majority of the population of this country would have no idea who the Boer were.

The ANC regard all whites that are not card carrying members of the Communist party as Boer, your argument is as Angry points out, totally lame, it is a racist song, co written by a racist, being sung by a racist. He would have kissed Francois Pienaar's knob end on screen if he thought that would help the cause of the ANC, not the Sarfrican people, then got one of Winnie's crew to put a bullet in the back of his head if he thought he could get away with it.

You PC boys seem to have less and less a grasp on reality as time goes by.

Yes, you might be right about how many people know who the Boers are/were. My hyperbole got the better of me.

"The ANC regard all whites that are not card carrying members of the Communist party as Boer" hmmmm.... maybe you're having similar hyperbole problems.

There is dispute as to the origins of the song so how you can claim it was "co written by a racist" is an interesting one. The consensus is that it emerged in the 1990s. Nowhere have I seen reference to an author let alone a co-author.

The more that you use PC as a meaningless attempt at insult the more I wear that term as a badge of pride.

The system in S Africa was unfair and inhumane.

Although a hell of a long way from being perfect, S Africa is a hell of a lot better now.

Mandela was a brave and good man who believed in justice and equality, no matter what race.

The world is a poorer place without him.


Those 4 things are good enough for me to believe he was special.

I was there in 78, on a boat with 11 white cadets and a lovely Maltese Bruno. He was not even dark, just a Mediterranean tan.
We were told he could not go in the same bars as us. He stayed on board, shamefully we all went ashore on the piss.

Spitting Image had it dead on.

GOB wrote:

The system in S Africa was unfair and inhumane.

Although a hell of a long way from being perfect, S Africa is a hell of a lot better now.

Life expectancy Sarfrica:-

1990 When Mandela made everything all hunky spunky, 63 years and rising, today with all the major improvements per GOB, 48 years and falling.

[quote="knecht"]

Lord Tisdale wrote:

"The ANC regard all whites that are not card carrying members of the Communist party as Boer" hmmmm.... maybe you're having similar hyperbole problems.

There is dispute as to the origins of the song so how you can claim it was "co written by a racist" is an interesting one. The consensus is that it emerged in the 1990s. Nowhere have I seen reference to an author let alone a co-author..

The consensus and hyperbole can do one, they are a bastion of PCism, Mandela helped write the words and he instituted the policy of treating non pinkoes as Boers, he is the main reason why it is 1500 times more likely for a white farmer to be murdered in Sarf than it is in this country and over 4 times more likely for one to be murdered than a Keffer despite the general level of violence in the black community.

Lord Tisdale wrote:

GOB wrote:

The system in S Africa was unfair and inhumane.

Although a hell of a long way from being perfect, S Africa is a hell of a lot better now.

Life expectancy Sarfrica:-

1990 When Mandela made everything all hunky spunky, 63 years and rising, today with all the major improvements per GOB, 48 years and falling.

They must think I make my (FACTS ) UP ?