Nelson Mandela has died

downthetrack wrote:

hairy j wrote:

A bacon of hope. Let him rest in peas.

Jock hasn't flounced - he's just angered by the utter twats.

500K Rapes a year Child  & baby rape highest in the world.
50 murders a day
6mill have HIV in pop of 53 mill,not a shithole then ?
A very civilized country then.

I'm sure it was all Mandela's fault.

Tringreen wrote:

IMO he was a freedom fighter. An inhuman regime would simply not negotiate and his people were suffering unbelievable abuse. When it eventually did , the man showed not only his immense vision but also his eternal status as one of the truly great human beings.

Placed in the same situation, I for one, would have fought with everything I had against the abhorrent apartheid regime. Not so sure I could have been so forgiving and for me, that is the measure of the man.

This.

Spot on, Tringy, spot on.

Would any of us been able to forgive as he did?

I'd like to think that I could. But could I? Probably not.

knecht wrote:

It is violent now and was previously violent. My suspicion (based on prejudice) is that there was less noise about it before as most of the violence was in the non-white communities.
 
There have been large improvements in education, housing & infrastructure. One reason that there has been more of a struggle for improvements has been the number of white South Africans who left the country (my relatives among them) - fearing a bloodbath &/or wholesale loss of position which hasn't materialised. AIDS is certainly a big problem contributed to by Zuma refusing to acknowledge reality.
 
Perhaps Charlie could drop by and give us up to date, on the ground information about his experiences there.

 
 
 
 
It's a very strange and emotional time down here, Ian. No real sense of mourning, much more of a thanksgiving for his, pretty much singular effecting of a peaceful transition to democracy, life. The trouble now is that there is nobody anywhere near the calibre required to continue his vision. The ANC still use cadre deployment to appoint Ministers and all other senior public appointments and the corruption and feathering of own nests is astounding. I have to switch the television off when some speeches are being made they are so embarrassing. The poor are incredibly patient in waiting for their lives to materially improve, the economy needs to grow to make a difference to them and it's being so mismanaged that GDP fell to 0.7% in the last quarter. There are now young firebrands like Julius Malema stirring the pot. There was even a new political party launched last week, the Patriotic Alliance, all ex cons and Cape Town gang bosses, pledged to stamp out corruption!!

All that said, maybe it's the sunshine, the people are pretty much universally cheerful, helpful and pleasant. I love being here and although we're back on Wednesday next week I can't wait until we get back at the end of January.

Good to hear from you again Charlie. Watch out for them elephants...  

     

Charlie Wood wrote:

 
 
It's a very strange and emotional time down here, Ian. No real sense of mourning, much more of a thanksgiving for his, pretty much singular effecting of a peaceful transition to democracy, life. The trouble now is that there is nobody anywhere near the calibre required to continue his vision. The ANC still use cadre deployment to appoint Ministers and all other senior public appointments and the corruption and feathering of own nests is astounding. I have to switch the television off when some speeches are being made they are so embarrassing. The poor are incredibly patient in waiting for their lives to materially improve, the economy needs to grow to make a difference to them and it's being so mismanaged that GDP fell to 0.7% in the last quarter. There are now young firebrands like Julius Malema stirring the pot. There was even a new political party launched last week, the Patriotic Alliance, all ex cons and Cape Town gang bosses, pledged to stamp out corruption!!

The corruption, of course, left behind by Mandela, perhaps the most telling example of the state of Sarf is the fact that the Eulogy was delivered by Jacob Zuma, the whole PC world has run PR for Mandela for decades, another classic example of a politician who talked, smiled and waved the talk but never came close to walking the walk with which he has been credited .

Mock Cuncher wrote:

I think the whole point of Mandela is that he went from a chap who was a pretty violent type to basically an utter saint - when no-one would have blamed him for becoming 10x more extreme after 27 years rotting in prison.

Without him = South Africa would have become like Zimbabwe on crack.

With him = it is not now a perfect country fore shore, but mantras like 'forgiveness', 'unity' and 'harmony' emerged as key from the background of an uprising in one of the most oppressive states in the 20th century. That is the legacy people celebrate with Mandela and the reason he became iconic for billions.

Could you qualify what you mean by Mandela bring a pretty violent type?

Angry wrote:

knecht wrote:

I have read Long Walk to Freedom. I haven't read any other biographies. I have read around the subject. I have been interested since the 60's as I had South African relatives. I also met a particularly twisted South African when I was travelling in 1971 - that's stayed with me ever since.

The consensus is that his methods were civil disobedience, legal challenges, strikes and non-cooperation. There was a group of the ANC who wanted more direct & violent action. It is claimed he worked to dilute their methods. I am sure that there were occasions that he turned a blind eye to their actions for reasons of political expediency and compromise in order to maintain control. Who knows?

What would you have done in his situation?

Apartheid was very wrong as it was very wrong for the usa and uk to back it, if it wasnt him someone else would have taken up the fight im sure. Doesnt mean we have to resort to terrorism to get our way should we all hail gerry adams for resorting to terrorism in northern ireland to ger sinn fein in power there?

I dont dislike mandela he did do alot of good but i just want accept people portraying him as a saint when he wasnt.

He was a truly brilliant man and brilliant political leader.

Saint is linked with religion. He wasn't a saint. He wasn't MLK, he didn't quote biblical overtones from the pulpit, which crossed over into race rallies.

He was his own man. He was involved in every aspect of the struggle of his people too. He was the leader of a racial, philosophical and political movement.

It is also worth pointing out that Gandhi and MLK weren't political leaders. And they never assumed political office. An extremely crucial difference in comparing the three men and their legacies.

The only reason that Ghandi was mentioned- by me- was because Jock said he thought Mandela was THE icon for humanity to follow in the future, I said that I preferred Ghandi as an example to mankind because he was completely non violent, I also think that somebody who changed the direction of a whole country must have been a political figure in some respect?
As for Mandela being a terrorist, in 1961 Mandela was the founder of Umkhonto we Siswe (”Spear of the People”), ANC’s terrorist arm, and never during all the time he was in prison did he condemn that organization’s acts of indiscriminate terrorism against civilians. He was a Stalinist in principle which is why the leaders of the west always had a problem with him. I cant say that that really bothered me other than Stalin killed millions of his own people and any regime that finds it necessary to kill many of its own people are in my mind less than good material as a role model. I can get that people are saying that he forgave crimes against him but at no time in his life did he renounce the violence, maybe it was the only way and I wouldn't presume to judge him having not lived in his shoes, but for me the violence is being airbrushed out of history.
I took time to remember the man for what he was, a truly inspirational figure, but history is written by the victors as they say, I bear that in mind whatever I am told to think or do by anybody.

Apparently there's a few confused South Africans visiting the Nissan Main Dealer:) 

Nelson Mandela has left this world......but what is left behind.

African National Congress the party he was part of.....is one of the most currupt organizations in the world.

The Mandela family have been at war over where he should be buried....and that is when he was still alive......it's all to do with power and money,money,money,money.......etc.

I think that as an individual and taking into consideration his background and life experiences, he was magnificent in how he behaved during and after release from prison. The fact that others can't or won't come close to building on his example is very sad but expected.
He was a one off, inspirational leader.

ejh wrote:

Angry wrote:

knecht wrote:

I have read Long Walk to Freedom. I haven't read any other biographies. I have read around the subject. I have been interested since the 60's as I had South African relatives. I also met a particularly twisted South African when I was travelling in 1971 - that's stayed with me ever since.

The consensus is that his methods were civil disobedience, legal challenges, strikes and non-cooperation. There was a group of the ANC who wanted more direct & violent action. It is claimed he worked to dilute their methods. I am sure that there were occasions that he turned a blind eye to their actions for reasons of political expediency and compromise in order to maintain control. Who knows?

What would you have done in his situation?

Apartheid was very wrong as it was very wrong for the usa and uk to back it, if it wasnt him someone else would have taken up the fight im sure. Doesnt mean we have to resort to terrorism to get our way should we all hail gerry adams for resorting to terrorism in northern ireland to ger sinn fein in power there?

I dont dislike mandela he did do alot of good but i just want accept people portraying him as a saint when he wasnt.

He was a truly brilliant man and brilliant political leader.

Saint is linked with religion. He wasn't a saint. He wasn't MLK, he didn't quote biblical overtones from the pulpit, which crossed over into race rallies.

He was his own man. He was involved in every aspect of the struggle of his people too. He was the leader of a racial, philosophical and political movement.

It is also worth pointing out that Gandhi and MLK weren't political leaders. And they never assumed political office. An extremely crucial difference in comparing the three men and their legacies.

Was MK ejh he founded the group lol

Martin
Luther
King   

Jack Sheppard wrote:

Martin
Luther
King     

got ya lol never seem him referenced like that before lol

Just seen Cameron walking into the Mandela memorial trying not to look like a cnut, couldn't pull it off though.   

Iggy wrote:

Just seen Cameron walking into the Mandela memorial trying not to look like a cnut, couldn't pull it off though.   

Like.

Iggy wrote:

Just seen Cameron walking into the Mandela memorial trying not to look like a cnut, couldn't pull it off though.   

John Major has admitted Britain was on the wrong side of history.

Can Cameron admit his activities as a young Tory?

worth a watch

Angry, how do you propose the oppressed black South Africans dealt with white supremacy?

Stern words, a few pamphlets and sit down protests perhaps? All non-violent protests they tried were met with violence. There were no other options left to them. It's so easy to preach simple, non-violent solutions to incredibly difficult problems when you have hindsight.

GreenSam wrote:

Angry, how do you propose the oppressed black South Africans dealt with white supremacy?

Stern words, a few pamphlets and sit down protests perhaps? All non-violent protests they tried were met with violence. There were no other options left to them. It's so easy to preach simple, non-violent solutions to incredibly difficult problems when you have hindsight.

Like.

GreenSam wrote:

Angry, how do you propose the oppressed black South Africans dealt with white supremacy?

Stern words, a few pamphlets and sit down protests perhaps? All non-violent protests they tried were met with violence. There were no other options left to them. It's so easy to preach simple, non-violent solutions to incredibly difficult problems when you have hindsight.

not with terrorism.

Angry wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

Angry, how do you propose the oppressed black South Africans dealt with white supremacy?

Stern words, a few pamphlets and sit down protests perhaps? All non-violent protests they tried were met with violence. There were no other options left to them. It's so easy to preach simple, non-violent solutions to incredibly difficult problems when you have hindsight.

not with terrorism.

Right, so I take it you equally oppose the British use of violence against the Nazis in World War Two given your obvious pacifist views then? There's no such thing as a just war when it's the only alternative and all peaceful methods have been explored right?

GreenSam wrote:

Angry wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

Angry, how do you propose the oppressed black South Africans dealt with white supremacy?

Stern words, a few pamphlets and sit down protests perhaps? All non-violent protests they tried were met with violence. There were no other options left to them. It's so easy to preach simple, non-violent solutions to incredibly difficult problems when you have hindsight.

not with terrorism.

Right, so I take it you equally oppose the British use of violence against the Nazis in World War Two given your obvious pacifist views then? There's no such thing as a just war when it's the only alternative and all peaceful methods have been explored right?

I'm not a pacifist Sam but enough of the childish pasoti like name calling it ruins the debate and you are better than that. But do actually Watch the video, research its points if you wish and then come back and say if anything said is wrong if you like.

Mandela may have been a reformed character which i accept he was who died a man of peace, a figure head for South Africa and many presidents like obama around the world and fought against a deplorable system in south africa that was backed by the usa and uk that should never have been allowed.

but with all that said that doesnt mean that his past activities which normally would be deplored by all regardless of what he was fighting should be forgotten or glossed over because it doesnt portray the image of a civil rights hero. Hhe didn't go to prison for not paying his council tax did he?
His stubborn nature and refusal to denounce violence and terrorism caused more harm than any song the specials could sing and prolonged both apartheid and his sentence because being a martyr to socialists was more important than peace in South Africa.

That's my issue with the Mandela love in. Respect the man but don't change history to do it.

The justification of violence is another debate really Sam, I am glad now though that Mandelas life is being viewed in the right context, I am firmly of the belief that a lot of people are happy to airbrush out the violence from Mandelas past because of his later life. I have already stated that I found and still find Mandela an inspirational figure, for me the amount and level of violence used by the ANC and various groups are hard (if not impossible) to justify although you could argue that Mandela wasn't wholly responsible for all the violence but at no time in his life did he condem any of it. I think that a role model for all the world to follow should not have been party to terrorism or should at least publicly put it behind him and renounce the use of it. As an example would you say that as the police in this country use guns then it would be ok for political activists in this country to use guns? Hard line to draw that one is.