Brexit - Leave or Remain poll

Amsterdamage wrote:

More chance on holding Westminster accountable than Brussels that unelected bunch of crony supported kleptocrats weren't voted for by any of us. Anyway why do you bother demonstrating all the time if you don't achieve feck all?

So, you're not a fan of proportional representation then, Ammy. Can't beat first past the post eh ?
As for demonstrating, have you actually been alive in the last 50 years. The social and economic change has been huge. Not so long ago, even in Blair's time, rape of your spouse was legal. As late as the 80s, you could end up in Dartmoor for having a gay relatonship. The poll tax defeat through demonstration ? Do you really think things such as these would have come about without public pressure, demonstration and lobbying ? Get a life. Oh, and there's an easy way of combating something we disagree with in Europe. Just don't do it. That's what the French do. Works a treat. I don't see the problem.

Talking of the toffs, I was catching some local Beeb spotlight online just now of the Devon County show. I attended for a few years and enjoyed it, although a poor substitute for proper festivals that I no longer attend. Anyhoo, a very funny EU in or out debate, if you can call it that with some Harris character, a ubiquitous Devon Tory MP and the even more established Earl of Dartmouth. Guess who was on what side, and who was the bombastic bully ? Says it all. Enjoy sharing the hustings with the good earl. catch him ranting on the iplayer

Lord Biro wrote:

Amsterdamage wrote:

More chance on holding Westminster accountable than Brussels that unelected bunch of crony supported kleptocrats weren't voted for by any of us. Anyway why do you bother demonstrating all the time if you don't achieve feck all?

So, you're not a fan of proportional representation then, Ammy. Can't beat first past the post eh ?
As for demonstrating, have you actually been alive in the last 50 years. The social and economic change has been huge. Not so long ago, even in Blair's time, rape of your spouse was legal. As late as the 80s, you could end up in Dartmoor for having a gay relatonship. The poll tax defeat through demonstration ? Do you really think things such as these would have come about without public pressure, demonstration and lobbying ? Get a life. Oh, and there's an easy way of combating something we disagree with in Europe. Just don't do it. That's what the French do. Works a treat. I don't see the problem.

Talking of the toffs, I was catching some local Beeb spotlight online just now of the Devon County show. I attended for a few years and enjoyed it, although a poor substitute for proper festivals that I no longer attend. Anyhoo, a very funny EU in or out debate, if you can call it that with some Harris character, a ubiquitous Devon Tory MP and the even more established Earl of Dartmouth. Guess who was on what side, and who was the bombastic bully ? Says it all. Enjoy sharing the hustings with the good earl. catch him ranting on the iplayer

So we agree that Westminster can and is changed by public pressure, (I also demonstrate and was at the poll tax riots/demo) now kindly explain to me how we change Europe? Change can only be made if you have the backing of all the people of all the countries of all the states all demonstrating against their own parliaments.
Your arguments are poor. And stop trying to cement me morally or politically to outers on the telly, they have nothing in common me the same with cam or ossy and you, it would be ridiculous of me to say so.

The Paxman programme on one just now was very good.

Amsterdamage wrote:

So we agree that Westminster can and is changed by public pressure

Of course we can. That's why I get involved in various issues I'm interested in. Some you win, some you lose. The laws that affect peoples' lives are continually changed here by non elected folk, but here's the rub, while slap bang in the middle of  the EU. No problem then.  
I seriously don't get just what EU regulation and protection is so bad that working folk and consumers alike should shiver in fear.
Sadly a few of those regulations have come from corporate interests trying to maintain or increase their market share/profit margins, but that happens in the Westminster world as well.
And in any event, most of the ills of the last 20 years have come from de regulation, and allowing industries to self police.

Let's be honest. The whole debate is about immigration. Nothing to do with democracy and corporate power. That ain't up for grabs.

Lord Biro wrote:

That manner of political change one way or the other, will continue in the EU and the UK, depending on world events, and has little to do with which corporations are in charge.

Well I never...

I always thought it was evil corporations that ruled the world. What they said went?

Lord Biro wrote:

Amsterdamage wrote:

So we agree that Westminster can and is changed by public pressure

Of course we can. That's why I get involved in various issues I'm interested in. Some you win, some you lose. The laws that affect peoples' lives are continually changed here by non elected folk, but here's the rub, while slap bang in the middle of  the EU. No problem then.  
I seriously don't get just what EU regulation and protection is so bad that working folk and consumers alike should shiver in fear.
Sadly a few of those regulations have come from corporate interests trying to maintain or increase their market share/profit margins, but that happens in the Westminster world as well.
And in any event, most of the ills of the last 20 years have come from de regulation, and allowing industries to self police.

Let's be honest. The whole debate is about immigration. Nothing to do with democracy and corporate power. That ain't up for grabs.

There you go again putting words in my mouth. Your whole argument to date (bar the veiled racism barbs) has been that we have no control over WESTMINSTER and Europe protects us from her ravages, as soon as you kindly pointed out that you and I can and have affected change you come back to immigration. I'm my mind immigration is probably 24% of it, not driven by any dislike of any ethnic creed but the more practical concerns about where we are going to house, school and treat said people when sick. 25% of it is the low wage economy that it drives, one of my children has had first hand experience of this and hasn't had a pay rise in five years despite having a trade and being well qualified, my wife hasn't had a pay rise in seven years. I would have said that the over riding hate of Europe in my eyes (and most other outers that I speak to) 51% is the cost of Europe, we get back half of what we put in and the rest goes to running the huge enelected quango that is Brussels. In there somewhere is the lack of sovereignty. Maybe you've always been told what to do and get off on it, I've always walked my own path and am a bit too independant of mind and spirit to put up with that shit.

Rickler wrote:

Lord Biro wrote:

That manner of political change one way or the other, will continue in the EU and the UK, depending on world events, and has little to do with which corporations are in charge.

Well I never...

I always thought it was evil corporations that ruled the world.  What they said went?

I think you've misconstrued my wording. Corporations have huge influence over and above their number. They have an unofficial  "block vote" in many matters. But they are not one huge conglomerate. that really would be conspiracy territory.. My point was Corporations compete with each other. Out of EU would mean US corporations would have much more say here as we become the 51st state. As it stands at present, more European corporations have power. It's all a bit like feuding Barons, or even look back to the English Civil War to see how influence over "elected parliaments" works, and the trouble it causes. This referendum should be seen in a similar vein with most of us the levellers and diggers. Wealth is where it's at, and wealth has it's own divisions, with corporations being the new money. That's where the TTIP thing comes in.

And talking of TTIP,
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Weren't you saying that Europe would protect us from TTIP and WESTMINSTER would sign us up whether we liked it or not?

Amsterdamage wrote:

There you go again putting words in my mouth. Your whole argument to date (bar the veiled racism barbs) has been that we have no control over WESTMINSTER and Europe protects us from her ravages, as soon as you kindly pointed out that you and I can and have affected change you come back to immigration. I'm my mind immigration is probably 24% of it, not driven by any dislike of any ethnic creed but the more practical concerns about where we are going to house, school and treat said people when sick. 25% of it is the low wage economy that it drives, one of my children has had first hand experience of this and hasn't had a pay rise in five years despite having a trade and being well qualified, my wife hasn't had a pay rise in seven years. I would have said that the over riding hate of Europe in my eyes (and most other outers that I speak to) 51% is the cost of Europe, we get back half of what we put in and the rest goes to running the huge enelected quango that is Brussels. In there somewhere is the lack of sovereignty. Maybe you've always been told what to do and get off on it, I've always walked my own path and am a bit too independant of mind and spirit to put up with that shit.

Re immigration, I'm not talking about what's in your head 'Amster, I'm talking about what is fueling the debate and disquiet nationwide. And it is why Farage is trying to steer the debate back to his original immigration touch paper, and away from the economy thing.
I agree living standards are dropping like a stone for millions of people. Ever since the crash, even the wealthy admit they've never had so much wealth redistributed their way. THIS Westminster government is deregulating as a religion. The academies are now advertising for unqualified teachers, the privatising NHS are asking nurses and auxiliaries to take doctos' roles, the police have undertrained community officers, minimum wage care workers are taking over from social worker duties, I could go on and on. And the latest wheeze was being battled over yesterday with the RMT rail strike. That's where the real CUTS in wages are coming from. DE-REGULATION.
What we probably need is MORE regulation, to stop the corporations chasing ever more profit by drifting away from skilled posts to casual menial work. Management is disappearing quicker than a quick thing, with semantic technology doing away with many of the better paid working class jobs, just as it did with the shop floor. It's a world wide systemic issue, not one of Brussels or Westminster. If only it were that simple.
As for us getting back less than we put in. Of course that's true. That's because we're far richer than many parts of Europe, and the idea is classic redistribution to the poorer areas. It's classic redistribution that in the long term should actually help reduce the need for working migration into these small islands. If corruption gets in the way of that ideal, just as it always has in the UK, then that's another matter.
I thought you believed in redistribution and a more egalitarian society, Ammy, or does that stop at the Channel, sorry, the Ocean, to quote Iddesleigh

And by the way, when I say more regulation is needed, I don't mean the corrupt hoops and rules put in place by the corporate lobbies of the EU or Westminster to increase their market share and take away work from the small people. That's just corruption masquerading as care for the consumer. The food prep and building industries are classic examples of regulations meant to make only the big players viable.

Re corruption that's another matter and another one that's worse across the channel than it is here. Funnily enough I'm reading a book on the subject right now, it's actually about how worldwide corruption is fuelling extremism written by a Yank Sarah Chayes, mainly about Afghanistan, Nigeria, the Magrheb ect. but the parallels with our society and more importantly Europe are quite staggering. One of the issues she raises is that most foreign aid and said redistribution of wealth very rarely gets to the people it's aimed at and is in fact fuelling corruption, widening the poverty gap and causing a feeling of unrest from the have nots. You've said yourself that war is coming if it is I'd rather be a tiny island nation than a super group of nations with an idea of being a global force. I'm just an old hippy who would help anybody out within my means however I don't share your wish or see your need to shovel money to countries like Turkey who if the position was reversed would happily let us all starve. I think maybe you should do as I've done and travel a bit more mate it's a bit of an eye opener. The Asians think the welfare state is laughable, they just don't get it, it's a cruel world.

Amsterdamage wrote:

Re corruption that's another matter and another one that's worse across the channel than it is here. Funnily enough I'm reading a book on the subject right now, it's actually about how worldwide corruption is fuelling extremism written by a Yank Sarah Chayes, mainly about Afghanistan, Nigeria, the Magrheb ect. but the parallels with our society and more importantly Europe are quite staggering. One of the issues she raises is that most foreign aid and said redistribution of wealth very rarely gets to the people it's aimed at and is in fact fuelling corruption, widening the poverty gap and causing a feeling of unrest from the have nots. You've said yourself that war is coming if it is I'd rather be a tiny island nation than a super group of nations with an idea of being a global force. I'm just an old hippy who would help anybody out within my means however I don't share your wish or see your need to shovel money to countries like Turkey who if the position was reversed would happily let us all starve. I think maybe you should do as I've done and travel a bit more mate it's a bit of an eye opener. The Asians think the welfare state is laughable, they just don't get it, it's a cruel world.

That's why they all want to live 'ere, so they can get it

Les Miserable wrote:

Amsterdamage wrote:

Re corruption that's another matter and another one that's worse across the channel than it is here. Funnily enough I'm reading a book on the subject right now, it's actually about how worldwide corruption is fuelling extremism written by a Yank Sarah Chayes, mainly about Afghanistan, Nigeria, the Magrheb ect. but the parallels with our society and more importantly Europe are quite staggering. One of the issues she raises is that most foreign aid and said redistribution of wealth very rarely gets to the people it's aimed at and is in fact fuelling corruption, widening the poverty gap and causing a feeling of unrest from the have nots. You've said yourself that war is coming if it is I'd rather be a tiny island nation than a super group of nations with an idea of being a global force. I'm just an old hippy who would help anybody out within my means however I don't share your wish or see your need to shovel money to countries like Turkey who if the position was reversed would happily let us all starve. I think maybe you should do as I've done and travel a bit more mate it's a bit of an eye opener. The Asians think the welfare state is laughable, they just don't get it, it's a cruel world.

That's why they all want to live 'ere, so they can get it

Quite possibly, we could learn a lot from the Asians in terms of how to look after ourselves at a family level. We are much much independant in thought and deed, without the welfare state the extended family network becomes much more important and when living amoung us quickly overtake us in business and overall wealth because father lends to son, daughter, uncle to niece and nephew ect. and they are just hungrier and more driven than the majority of British people. They are also much more able than us to walk past some poor orphan with one leg begging in the street and will write it off as Karma something I find hard to do. Asia is very prone to opening the mind but often you wish it hadn't.

I wasn't talking about overseas aid amster, I was talking of EU regional investment such as SRB money, some of which does get to the grass roots, admittedly with lots of snouts in it on the way down. We all know much of the UK overseas aid budget is a slush fund to grease palms for contracts for their mates. That, and a free for all for the Foreign Office and embassy staff to park their expenses in. And of course, to put the odd bit of defence spending in. Why do you think the aid budget was protected from the austerity ?

If you think this country isn't every bit as corrupt as many of these places, you need to take an early bath. They just tell us we're not. I've worked in the voluntary sector overseas and have had many dealings with American Aid etc. It's all a sham, with a lot of low level business and intelligence gathering.
While we're on foreign affairs, as for Lizzy saying the Chinese officials are rude, that's a bit rich coming from a woman with a husband like Phillip. And just what on earth was Boris up to with his wiff waff piss taking at the Bejing olympics. When it comes to rudeness, and corruption, we're right up there with the elite.

Of course the English monarch doesn't get involved in politics. Funny how things keep leaking followed by a swft bland statement of nothing. It's all games and so very English.

I'm not denying we're a corrupt country but we are at no ten on the list this year whilst Afghanistan is about 150th second from bottom, different league altogether. You're wrong about EU aid it was specifically mentioned in the section on Afghanistan and the misappropriation of aid.

Ps. You seem to have missed the TTIP point I made.

Amsterdamage wrote:

And talking of TTIP,
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Weren't you saying that Europe would protect us from TTIP and WESTMINSTER would sign us up whether we liked it or not?  

Yes, and I firmly believe that to be the case, whatever Cameron might say. He's a privatiser, he's pro the big American corporations, the UK Virgin Care and the rest. He WILL sign away the right for the state to reject their contract proposals. It's what he's all about.
I actually have more faith in the French resisting these corporations more than the UK parliament doing so. Their state still controls their energy and railways ffs. They've still got a functioning big left of centre movement. They want TTIP less than we do. Once you understand that, the rest is electioneering and hot air. Believe me, if I thought Westminster would keep a nationalised NHS for ever, while the EU would privatise it, that would make me vote to leave. But I don't. Every political instinct I have says quite the opposite. That BBC article and Cameron's comments are just more of the same crap, and very similar to the Scotland referendum. Cameron will promise anything, and then go back on it. That's how these people work when push comes to shove. And what's to stop a new Tory leader ripping up Cameron's thoughts ? Nothing.
Sorry amster, but you're beginning to sound like a proper Kipper. That's a shame. Not interested.

Lord Biro wrote:

Amsterdamage wrote:

And talking of TTIP,
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Weren't you saying that Europe would protect us from TTIP and WESTMINSTER would sign us up whether we liked it or not?  

Yes, and I firmly believe that to be the case, whatever Cameron might say. He's a privatiser, he's pro the big American corporations, the UK Virgin Care and the rest. He WILL sign away the right for the state to reject their contract proposals. It's what he's all about.
I actually have more faith in the French resisting these corporations more than the UK parliament doing so. Their state still controls their energy and railways ffs. They've still got a functioning big left of centre movement. They want TTIP less than we do. Once you understand that, the rest is electioneering and hot air. Believe me, if I thought Westminster would keep a nationalised NHS for ever, while the EU would privatise it, that would make me vote to leave. But I don't. Every political instinct I have says quite the opposite. That BBC article and Cameron's comments are just more of the same crap, and very similar to the Scotland referendum. Cameron will promise anything, and then go back on it. That's how these people work when push comes to shove. And what's to stop a new Tory leader ripping up Cameron's thoughts ? Nothing.
Sorry amster, but you're beginning to sound like a proper Kipper. That's a shame. Not interested.

Ooh he's on the ropes, sounding like a snarling Tory with the insults now, Cameron is a privateer and not a friend of mine but he was stopped by a revolt of his own party allied by Corby, who despite what he says has always been a sceptic. Yet more proof that we are more likely to stop this shit with our own home action rather than hoping the unelelected unanswerable Europeans would.
And stop with the boxes, racist, kipper, Tory, capitalist so many to choose from and hardly anybody fits in just one.

I didn't realise calling someone a UKIP supporter was an insult, just a statement . You can call me a green if you like. I assure you I won't be offended.

I don't get party politics more of an independant myself.

Lord Biro wrote:

I didn't realise calling someone a UKIP supporter was an insult, just a statement . You can call me a green if you like. I assure you I won't be offended.

You're a bhey you are.

A little while back I called Saint Francis a Marxist, which he is, and you accused me of using insulting language!

I'm fed up reading your continuous tirade against corporate/capitalist/whatever crap.

I agree with much of what you say but it's never ending.

No matter what the thread you'll find a way to politicise it, just like your previous Sir John Hawkins.

I've noticed that there's quite a few regular posters who seem to have gone quiet these last months.

I'm joining them.

Noted.

Rollo Tomasi wrote:

I agree with much of what you say but it's never ending.

I very much doubt that.  Naughty Rollo

Anyway, on the issue of this unashamed political thread, I am exasperated, and I think Osborne may have just shifted my view on leaving.  I'm now more neutral than ever. The clown is saying leaving the EU would be a disaster as house prices would drop like a stone, some 18% , on a Brexit.  I now know this world is barmy as the UK head economics man thinks the cost of buying a house going up is actually a good thing. Tell that to the huge proportion of the population who don't own one. If one statement in this whole debate shows where the mindset is of these people, then that's it. They're all bonkers. Fancy cheering on the increase in the price of anything ?
Maybe the Chancellor is a secret Brexit plant in the Remain lobby group. He's certainly doing the Brexit campaign no harm at all.

If you don't like house prices you need to move to France and quick about it, you may not be able to post June 23rd.

Rollo Tomasi wrote:

Lord Biro wrote:

I didn't realise calling someone a UKIP supporter was an insult, just a statement . You can call me a green if you like. I assure you I won't be offended.

You're a bhey you are.

A little while back I called Saint Francis a Marxist, which he is, and you accused me of using insulting language!

I'm fed up reading your continuous tirade against corporate/capitalist/whatever crap.

I agree with much of what you say but it's never ending.

No matter what the thread you'll find a way to politicise it, just like your previous Sir John Hawkins.

I've noticed that there's quite a few regular posters who seem to have gone quiet these last months.

I'm joining them.

Is that a promise? A cross-your-heart-and-hope-to-die promise?