Brexit - Leave or Remain poll

I know and understand the arguments for wanting to leave. I think they are wrong, and they don't hold up to scrutiny.

I know and understand the arguments for wanting to stay. They make much more sense to me, and economically at least, can be backed by forecasting models which have some basis in reality

As I said I worked for the EC and understand their aims and objectives. They are not a bunch of power crazed individuals wanting to control Europe. They do not want to strip the UK of it's right to govern. Some of the leave arguments are complete nonsense. The 'power without accountability' mantra is just totally untrue. The beaurocrats, civil servants, whatever you want to call them, quite simply do not have that power - that lies with individual nations and always will.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

Why do I need to watch a propaganda film?

I can't think of anyone who posts more propaganda, pie charts, ideological links, 'hilarious' political gifs and so on than you...

...you really couldn't make it up

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

Why do I need to watch a propaganda film?

In the same way that I read the Gaurdian the other day so that I am informed about both sides of the debate, I expect you already know it all somehow. I rest my case and refuse to debate with a closed mind, having a closed mind is worse than trying to debate with a stupid person they can't think, you refuse to. Bye.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

Amsterdamage wrote:

I read your favourite rag in the coffee shop the other day Franny (the one telling you how to think about the immigrant queue poster) no wonder you are so obsessed with immigration as it seems the main tactic in the Gaurdian remain campaign, immigration, immigration, immigration. Some of the most heavily bisaed stuff I've read anywhere. Trade, reply immigration, economy, reply immigration ect, ect. It's not all about immigration.

PP and Franny need to watch the movie,
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I'm taking no further part in this debate until you do.

Did you see the Peston programme that was on ITV this morning?

In it Allegra Stratton had a tracker showing how important each headline issue was to voters since the campaign began (I think).

The categories were Immigration, Economy, NHS, Democracy and a couple of others. The category that was judged to be most important was Immigration.

Every political programme has been screaming about immigration for months.

The front pages of our national newspapers have been yelling at us for months.

On Thursday the Daily Mail printed this front page:

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On Friday the printed this correction (on an inside pag):

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IT'S NOT ME WHO BANGS ON ABOUT IMMIGRATION ALL THE TIME.

IT WAS YOU WHO MORE OR LESS COMPELLED ME TO POST THIS RESPONSE.

Back on famililiar ground eh Frank? The three Is.

PlymptonPilgrim wrote:

I know and understand the arguments for wanting to leave. I think they are wrong, and they don't hold up to scrutiny.

I know and understand the arguments for wanting to stay. They make much more sense to me, and economically at least, can be backed by forecasting models which have some basis in reality

As I said I worked for the EC and understand their aims and objectives. They are not a bunch of power crazed individuals wanting to control Europe. They do not want to strip the UK of it's right to govern. Some of the leave arguments are complete nonsense. The 'power without accountability' mantra is just totally untrue. The beaurocrats, civil servants, whatever you want to call them, quite simply do not have that power - that lies with individual nations and always will.

Just spend an hour and watch the movie.

Pretty much what PP has just said... I'm aware of the pro-Brexit arguments. I disagree with them.

Why would I want to waste an hour watching a film that says all the things I have already heard being said?

You think there's too many immigrants: I don't.

You think they're feckin up the economy: I don't.

You think immigrants come over here to claim benefits: I don't.

You think they some how dilute what it is to be British: I don't.

You think they are a nett drain on the economy: I don't.

You think we'll save money by not being in the EU: I don't.

You think the money saved (see above) will be spent on the NHS: I don't.

You think we have millions of laws imposed on us about which we have no say: I don't.

You think leaving the EU will make everything better: I don't.

You think leaving EU will have no adverse affect on our trading: I don't.

You think leaving EU will mean we can "take control of ur borders": I don't.

I think the free trade within the EU is a huge boost to this country: you don't.

I think the freedom of people to move across borders is a great thing: you don't.

I think being at the heart of Europe's decision making is a good thing: you don't.

I think the EU is largely responsible for the longest period of peacetime Europe has ever seen: you don't.

I think cutting all the EU red tape will impoverish Britain's workers and hasten the Bangladeshification of Britain: you don't.

I think voting to leave EU will lead to the break up of the UK: you don't.

I wouldn't trust Farage, Johnson, Gove or any of the rest of them as far as I could spit: you would.

I can be Plymothian, Devonian, English, British and European all at the same time with none of them being any weaker because of any of the others: you can't.

I don't need to watch a poxy propaganda film to know any of this.

George Osborne wrote:

"...one of the strange things about this campaign is the idea of let's not listen to experts, let's listen to people who are not".

Just imagine if that was appied to everything.




<picture goes all wibbly wobbly signifying transition into imagined scenario>






(*Wakes up one day with toothache*): Wifey, darling I have awful toothache. I think I'll go and see my mate, Nige. He's a plumber. He'll know what to do.

Wife: Mightn't a dentist make more sense?

Me: Dentists schmentists! What do so-called "experts" know about anything?

(*Later*) Nige: Nothing else for it. We'll have to chop your leg off.

Me: Righty-oh!

(*Later*) Me: Wifey darling my toothache is no better...

Wife: You'll have to hop off to the dentist, won't you!

Moist_Von_Lipwig wrote:

Les Miserable wrote:

Lip, have you watched the Brexit Movie posted by Mage yet?

I'll put it on now......

Well, for the sake of debate I've just watched it.

I wouldn't say that it was a total waste of my time but close to it.

Lots of statements being made but no real examples or explanations.

For example, the bit about the number of EU laws on toothpaste and shampoo. Yes, it seems a lot but the video makers failed to explain that the vast majority (if not all of them) are designed to inform you and protect both you and the environment.

That northeast fisherman's voice went really high pitched at the end. Was he lying or was he not sure about what he had just said was factual?

All one sided and no right of reply by the remain side.

Also, most importantly, no details of "how" things will be done post Brexit!! No manifesto or plans. Just statements of how great we will be.
Aren't we already great?

And the guy who siad that if it meant that he was stewing grass for his family in five years time after Brexit, he would still vote to leave!!!!!

They stated that the EU wise elite are deciding everything for the plebs. I saw exactly the same thing in the video. A few wise elite were telling the plebs what they should do. There were no plebs putting their ideas across in the video.

Mentioning people like Drake as fine examples of what we should be like..... In the 21st century?? Really??

I'm sorry but that video hasn't convinced me one bit.

We know that the EU needs reform (as do many other EU citizens). Better to stay in and fight for reform with other like minded EU citizens than run away!!!!!!!

Moist_Von_Lipwig wrote:

Moist_Von_Lipwig wrote:

Les Miserable wrote:

Lip, have you watched the Brexit Movie posted by Mage yet?

I'll put it on now......

Well, for the sake of debate I've just watched it.

I wouldn't say that it was a total waste of my time but close to it.

Lots of statements being made but no real examples or explanations.

For example, the bit about the number of EU laws on toothpaste and shampoo. Yes, it seems a lot but the video makers failed to explain that the vast majority (if not all of them) are designed to inform you and protect both you and the environment.

That northeast fisherman's voice went really high pitched at the end. Was he lying or was he not sure about what he had just said was factual?

All one sided and no right of reply by the remain side.

Also, most importantly, no details of "how" things will be done post Brexit!! No manifesto or plans. Just statements of how great we will be.
Aren't we already great?

And the guy who siad that if it meant that he was stewing grass for his family in five years time after Brexit, he would still vote to leave!!!!!

They stated that the EU wise elite are deciding everything for the plebs. I saw exactly the same thing in the video. A few wise elite were telling the plebs what they should do. There were no plebs putting their ideas across in the video.

Mentioning people like Drake as fine examples of what we should be like..... In the 21st century?? Really??

I'm sorry but that video hasn't convinced me one bit.

We know that the EU needs reform (as do many other EU citizens). Better to stay in and fight for reform with other like minded EU citizens than run away!!!!!!!

Can't disagree with that

Thanks for your time and synopsis.

Chris Grayling wrote:

I think the poster's wrong, and it's the wrong argument" for the EU referendum

Looks like Farage really is out on his own even amongst his cohort on this one.

Nazi imagery proving, understandably, to be a tad too far for some.

Unlike you the movie doesn't mention immigration, for that read the Gaurdian, you have a closed mind what's left to debate? Bye bye.

The only thing I'd add is that you are a typical teacher.

Camerin did himself and the remain campaign yet more harm on QT last night. Never has a 'man' looked so unconvinced by his own lies.

It's becoming more obvious as time goes on that the remain forecasts of doom are the absolute very worst case scenario. If you looked at the benefits of leaving with the rose tinted glasses on it would be guaranteed Nirhvana. The Tory stooges in the audience clapping like trained seals every time their master spoke was amusing.

Mood swinging toward remain, as it usually does in the latter stages when people start to realise the risks.

Bookies [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Love, an untypical teacher.

Tringreen wrote:

Mood swinging toward remain, as it usually does in the latter stages when people start to realise the risks.

Bookies [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Love, an untypical teacher.

...left leaning, early retired, pensioned to the hilt.....yeah, totally untypical . Enyoy the ride bhey.

Les Miserable wrote:

Tringreen wrote:

Mood swinging toward remain, as it usually does in the latter stages when people start to realise the risks.

Bookies [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Love, an untypical teacher.

...left leaning, early retired, pensioned to the hilt.....yeah, totally untypical . Enyoy the ride bhey.

Socialism got me where I am today, dear boy

Has someone served Abul Franza a gagging order for spreading his message of hate?

Amsterdamage wrote:

I read your favourite rag in the coffee shop the other day Franny (the one telling you how to think about the immigrant queue poster) no wonder you are so obsessed with immigration as it seems the main tactic in the Gaurdian remain campaign, immigration, immigration, immigration. Some of the most heavily bisaed stuff I've read anywhere. Trade, reply immigration, economy, reply immigration ect, ect. It's not all about immigration.

PP and Franny need to watch the movie,
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I'm taking no further part in this debate until you do.

I didn't watch the video because I thought it would be filled with misleading propaganda bullshit. Seems like it is.

Here's John Oliver on last night's Today Show. He's seen it.

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It's very funny and much shorter than Brexit The Movie.

Jonathan Pie is very funny too.

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And this is even shorter.

Amsterdamage wrote:

The only thing I'd add is that you are a typical teacher.

a) I am not a teacher.

b) You have no idea what I do for a living.

c) What difference would it make anyway if I was?

d) Play the ball not the man (especialy true when you know next to nothing about him).

Michael Gove has no time for the so-called "experts".

Is this his alternative?

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You look like a teacher, anyway just watch the movie and just maybe you'll be informed enough to join the debate.