Do not forget

IsThatHHP? wrote:

Point well made Knecht, agree 100%. Maybe some of us (well definetely me) need to calm down although as i've said before i detest bullies but yes it's time for composure and a look at the cold, hard facts of the situation we find ourselves in. Time is running out for objections to be sent to the relevant authorities and yes i accept that petty interweb squabbles do not help.

Thanks. I almost didn't say anything .... I'm cold & tired & pissed off with it all and it's late ...... so I may have been wrong to point it out. Sorry. It may look different in the morning.

Having seen how the Cherry Tree meeting has 'evolved' in the telling, the whole thing sticks in the throat. For the first time in over 50 years I am fast going off my club. I went off football on two occasions some years ago having been caught up in ridiculously dangerous violence - once involving someone being stabbed in Wolverhampton v Man U and a few years later involving Leeds supporters removing heavy wooden seats and chucking them into the crowd at Highfield Road - but I never stopped following Argyle. Now the actions of our present custodian and Mr Newell is putting me off more & more in a way that the other experiences hadn't. That's sad.

Right. I'm off back to bed to sleep, perchance to dream.

knecht wrote:

IsThatHHP? wrote:

Point well made Knecht, agree 100%. Maybe some of us (well definetely me) need to calm down although as i've said before i detest bullies but yes it's time for composure and a look at the cold, hard facts of the situation we find ourselves in. Time is running out for objections to be sent to the relevant authorities and yes i accept that petty interweb squabbles do not help.

Thanks. I almost didn't say anything .... I'm cold & tired & pissed off with it all and it's late ...... so I may have been wrong to point it out. Sorry. It may look different in the morning.

Having seen how the Cherry Tree meeting has 'evolved' :roll:in the telling, the whole thing sticks in the throat. For the first time in over 50 years I am fast going off my club. I went off football on two occasions some years ago having been caught up in ridiculously dangerous violence - once involving someone being stabbed in Wolverhampton v Man U and a few years later involving Leeds supporters removing heavy wooden seats and chucking them into the crowd at Highfield Road - but I never stopped following Argyle. Now the actions of our present custodian and Mr Newell is putting me off more & more in a way that the other experiences hadn't. That's sad.

Right. I'm off back to bed to sleep, perchance to dream.

22 pages across two sites and not one mention of the actual meeting issues.

Don't take him on at his own game. 

#educatedwankers

this is how all developments go, the attack is two pronged.

the decision makers (council) & opposition (FOCP) are hit on two fronts.

 the main players involve themselves with the decision makers to ensure they will get what they need.

 the opponents are marginalised & 'plants' are used to cause disruption to the opposition.

in this case the deal is already done.

For those with the ability to see the bigger picture, there is indeed a sense of inevitability about the whole situation.

The reluctant bidder and the council, seem to have been working on this for years.

The lust for power amongst some vociferous, devious and controlling fans has been used to further advantage. Once they had been given a sniff of position, they were putty in the developer's hands.The fact that to a man, they all preach that Plymouth cannot support top flight football and that we should settle for boxed in mediocrity, further strengthens his position to build for himself and not the future of the football club or the park and the city.

As others have said, the likely result if this goes ahead is many long time fans turning their backs on the club until the small minded, visionless control freaks have either left or been ousted.
Make no mistake. They and their sponsors will end up running the club where deviousness, bullying and dimwitted jannery will be the order of the day.

No class. No vision. No hope.

green_genie wrote:

..........
22 pages across two sites and not one mention of the actual meeting issues.

Don't take him on at his own game. 

#educatedwankers

You're absolutely right. Nil illegitimi carborundum.

Now is the time to be focussed.

And, Tring, you need to change the stuck record and put on one that actually is focussed on the immediate task - amending the awful proposals - not fighting the old war again and again.

knecht wrote:

And, Tring, you need to change the stuck record and put on one that actually is focussed on the immediate task - amending the awful proposals - not fighting the old war again and again.

 I have appealed to the Trust to provide leadership and guidance of how best we can amend the proposed development. What more can I do from my lofty perch in the land of Arabs with socks ffs ?

Anyway, it's got feck all to do with you what I write. It's a pity you didn't listen to me and a few other visionaries years ago, instead of 'enjoying the ride' with nool and the gang. 

Happy to be a stuck record, a one trick pony. We can turn our backs on the club together, my dear old thing.

Tringreen wrote:

knecht wrote:

And, Tring, you need to change the stuck record and put on one that actually is focussed on the immediate task - amending the awful proposals - not fighting the old war again and again.

 I have appealed to the Trust to provide leadership and guidance of how best we can amend the proposed development. What more can I do from my lofty perch in the land of Arabs with socks ffs ?

Anyway, it's got feck all to do with you what I write. It's a pity you didn't listen to me and a few other visionaries years ago, instead of 'enjoying the ride' with nool and the gang. 

Happy to be a stuck record, a one trick pony. We can turn our backs on the club together, my dear old thing.

You have every right to object to these plans Tringy based upon your obvious emotional attachment to the club and city.

I think most people on this site and a few on the others agree with you to varying degrees. Are you looking for validation you've "won" or trying to improve things for the future..?

Tringreen wrote:

knecht wrote:

And, Tring, you need to change the stuck record and put on one that actually is focussed on the immediate task - amending the awful proposals - not fighting the old war again and again.

 I have appealed to the Trust to provide leadership and guidance of how best we can amend the proposed development. What more can I do from my lofty perch in the land of Arabs with socks ffs ?

Anyway, it's got feck all to do with you what I write. It's a pity you didn't listen to me and a few other visionaries years ago, instead of 'enjoying the ride' with nool and the gang. 

Happy to be a stuck record, a one trick pony. We can turn our backs on the club together, my dear old thing.

You're like a first world war general still trying to fight the war again and again, moving soldiers around on the table, bringing up the rear. What did you do in the war? You're ATD's version of pasoti's irritating mantra, old man.

Visionary? Maybe but only if you're looking backwards.

Get on and look at the plans and share your wisdom with us about them. Now is not the time for reminiscing.

point taken.

I think gg is right here. Maybe Newell is the sacrificial pig sent to distract and disrupt attention away from actually doing something to highlight the stupidity of Brent's plans. If he is.....its working.

Frank Bullitt wrote:

I think gg is right here. Maybe Newell is the sacrificial pig sent to distract and disrupt attention away from actually doing something to highlight the stupidity of Brent's plans. If he is.....its working.

An act of desperation, im thinking the development isn't as safe as some might think.

punchdrunk wrote:

Frank Bullitt wrote:

I think gg is right here. Maybe Newell is the sacrificial pig sent to distract and disrupt attention away from actually doing something to highlight the stupidity of Brent's plans. If he is.....its working.

An act of desperation, im thinking the development isn't as safe as some might think.

It cant be that safe if Brent does not have the money to take the capacity to 20k. 

Of course we all know that every construction project comes in on budget every time so I am sure every penny is accounted for.

Far from working together,  I thought that the Friends of CP were vehemently against the trust's plans to build on Cottage Field, which was used as a plus point in Akkeron opposing them.

That is spot on and there was never going to be any agreement there - hell would freeze over first.

Frank Bullitt wrote:

I think gg is right here. Maybe Newell is the sacrificial pig sent to distract and disrupt attention away from actually doing something to highlight the stupidity of Brent's plans. If he is.....its working.

Absolutely right Frank, even supposedly likeminded thinking people on this forum are starting to bicker amongst themselves. This is what the pro Brenties want and it would be a massive own goal if we fell into that trap, now is the time for unity. In my opinion the development is definetely going ahead but i think sensibly focused opposition could result in some amendments and hopefully one of them will be the ministand. Together we are stronger, keep the faith.


LIFELONG ARGYLE SUPPORTERS HAVE GREEN BLOOD NO MATTER WHO OWNS, RUNS OR TRIES TO HIJACK OUR CLUB.
DO NOT LET THESE PEOPLE DRIVE YOU AWAY FROM WHAT YOU LOVE.
THERE ARE WAYS OF STILL SUPPORTING THE CLUB/TEAM WITHOUT LINING THEIR POCKETS.

knecht wrote:

Tringreen wrote:

knecht wrote:

And, Tring, you need to change the stuck record and put on one that actually is focussed on the immediate task - amending the awful proposals - not fighting the old war again and again.

 I have appealed to the Trust to provide leadership and guidance of how best we can amend the proposed development. What more can I do from my lofty perch in the land of Arabs with socks ffs ?

Anyway, it's got feck all to do with you what I write. It's a pity you didn't listen to me and a few other visionaries years ago, instead of 'enjoying the ride' with nool and the gang. 

Happy to be a stuck record, a one trick pony. We can turn our backs on the club together, my dear old thing.

You're like a first world war general still trying to fight the war again and again, moving soldiers around on the table, bringing up the rear. What did you do in the war? You're ATD's version of pasoti's irritating mantra, old man.

Visionary? Maybe but only if you're looking backwards.

Get on and look at the plans and share your wisdom with us about them. Now is not the time for reminiscing.

I don't have any wisdom to offer concerning the plans, old man. It's not my field and frankly it is a uncoordinated waste of effort as countless threads on here clearly illustrate. The trust's working group are best placed for that, plus a few other prominent fans, including former trust/contingency group members, who would now appear to have seen through nool and the gang. It is they who should be leading and coordinating the opposition. Someone 'respected' like Graham Clark, who nool seems terrified of upsetting, needs to come out and say what he thinks of the plans rather than report facts, if there is to be a groundswell of opinion to at least get the plans amended.
The trust opposes the plans as they stand , so why are they not coordinating the opposition ?

I make no apologies or excuses for my 'irritating mantra'. At least now, an ever increasing number of people can see what nool and co. have been up to for literally years and years. The question is, will leadership be shown by those best placed to do so ?

Maybe you yourself, would like to spell out how best to oppose the plans in an effective and structured manner ?

In the meantime and until the club's fate is sealed, I'll continue with my irritating and now vindicated mantra.

On a more serious note ther are plenty of "it's awsum inniti" posts going on there.

PCC Planning email 12_06

Last two pages cover FoCP letter and reply from Cllr Sam Davey. Whilst disappointing that it is rather emotive and doesn't use enough FACTS there are a couple of good points. First one being about noise and light pollution from the hotel and access road. Second one is really interesting

" Restrictive covenants on the Home Park football stadium leasehold land will require amendment if the 
Higher Home Park development is to go ahead.  The development extends beyond the Higher Home Park 
land for which the council has already agreed amendments to the covenants on 18th October 2011.  
 
The planned hotel stretches to the edge of the 'red line' boundary of the leasehold land.  This land has 
covenants on it restricting development to uses that are integral to the football club.  This leasehold land 
covers the whole of the football stadium.  If the covenants were to be amended to allow the hotel to be built, 
it could put the future of the football stadium at risk if Plymouth Argyle were to run into financial difficulties again.  Furthermore, the hotel could, under new planning laws, be easily converted to living accommodation, setting a precedent that could see the whole of that leasehold land (and possibly the training pitches as well) developed for housing. "
 
Somebody asked back along (here or on dark side) why you would build a hotel without a restaurant for breakfast at least, and it was implied that guests would be forced to use ministand facilities or the (not fast) food outlets in the mall.

120 rooms next to a Studio School. Could we possibly be looking at beer cans stacked in the windows overlooking the park?

development land is always worth far more than amenity land, maybe thats the whole crux of hhp, development into housing in the (near) future, with a massive payout to the developer.

speculate to accumulate, banker

whilst argyle relocate, of course!

Mapperley, darling wrote:

whilst argyle relocate, of course!

I've been saying that is the plan from the start, that is why we will get absolutely no compromise here from Brent. Does anybody else remember the fuss when it was said Heaney was going to put student accommodation at HP? I am not sure of the difference planning wise of an Hotel or student accommodation? But I wouldn't have thought it easy to change once built?

green_genie wrote:

On a more serious note ther are plenty of "it's awsum inniti" posts going on there.

PCC Planning email 12_06

Last two pages cover FoCP letter and reply from Cllr Sam Davey. Whilst disappointing that it is rather emotive and doesn't use enough FACTS there are a couple of good points. First one being about noise and light pollution from the hotel and access road. Second one is really interesting

" Restrictive covenants on the Home Park football stadium leasehold land will require amendment if the 
Higher Home Park development is to go ahead.  The development extends beyond the Higher Home Park 
land for which the council has already agreed amendments to the covenants on 18th October 2011.  
 
The planned hotel stretches to the edge of the 'red line' boundary of the leasehold land.  This land has 
covenants on it restricting development to uses that are integral to the football club.  This leasehold land 
covers the whole of the football stadium.  If the covenants were to be amended to allow the hotel to be built, 
it could put the future of the football stadium at risk if Plymouth Argyle were to run into financial difficulties again.  Furthermore, the hotel could, under new planning laws, be easily converted to living accommodation, setting a precedent that could see the whole of that leasehold land (and possibly the training pitches as well) developed for housing. "
 
Somebody asked back along (here or on dark side) why you would build a hotel without a restaurant for breakfast at least, and it was implied that guests would be forced to use ministand facilities or the (not fast) food outlets in the mall.

120 rooms next to a Studio School. Could we possibly be looking at beer cans stacked in the windows overlooking the park?

This makes more sense to me than building a hotel there. Rather worrying but is the fact that Argyle getting into financial trouble in the future a serious planning objection?

Mapperley, darling wrote:

whilst argyle relocate, of course!

I wouldn't be totally against that.

There aren't enough letters of objection on there, I am not too worried about that, I haven't lodged mine yet, the reason being that I still have time to formulate a decent objection and with facts dripping all the time the situation is changing almost day to day. It's much easier to just say "it's brillyant innit" as support does not need reasons as an objector does. I am learning a lot by reading all the planning letters on the council site, make time to do that everybody.
Once the planning objections are in we need to start on the home secretary? Does anybody know the deadline for this?

IsThatHHP? wrote:

Frank Bullitt wrote:

I think gg is right here. Maybe Newell is the sacrificial pig sent to distract and disrupt attention away from actually doing something to highlight the stupidity of Brent's plans. If he is.....its working.

Absolutely right Frank, even supposedly likeminded thinking people on this forum are starting to bicker amongst themselves. This is what the pro Brenties want and it would be a massive own goal if we fell into that trap, now is the time for unity. In my opinion the development is definetely going ahead but i think sensibly focused opposition could result in some amendments and hopefully one of them will be the ministand. Together we are stronger, keep the faith.


LIFELONG ARGYLE SUPPORTERS HAVE GREEN BLOOD NO MATTER WHO OWNS, RUNS OR TRIES TO HIJACK OUR CLUB.
DO NOT LET THESE PEOPLE DRIVE YOU AWAY FROM WHAT YOU LOVE.
THERE ARE WAYS OF STILL SUPPORTING THE CLUB/TEAM WITHOUT LINING THEIR POCKETS.

Without appearing to be all "dogs of war" about this it is clear that a great deal of people object to parts, or all of this scheme, but as has been documented here the hot air seems to be directed at the usual suspects, plus the Herald. This is all well and good if balanced with the same enthusiasm to complain formally and sensibly following GG's guidelines to the relevant authorities, rather than people throw their hands up in the air and moan about it being a done deal. It will be a done deal if we don't do anything about it.

Remember - if we and others can convince the relevant people that the scheme as it stands does not work and needs amending that will be a victory for sense and also test JB's quivering lip. The secondary bonus is the fit that Newell and his toadies will go into. It could be a good day to buy popcorn shares

I'm not for one moment trying to tell people what to do or how to do it (that's not how this site works) but how about we all take action this weekend so that we can sleep soundly that we did all we possibly can for the good of the park, the city and the football club. All too soon the planning process will be over and given that not many people here communicate with each other in the real world it could pan out that everyone did nothing.

What about (if you haven't already) allocating an hour of your time this weekend to contact all the relevant authorities (see stickied thread) and raising your concerns in a unique and sensible manner? There are a whole host of groups that GG has highlighted, including reasons why that particular department may be interested in the outcome of the development. They include:

Planning Inspectorate
Highways Agency
National Planning Casework Unit
Tudor Evans
PCC Online Website Comments
Herald
Individual PCC Officers
Councillors

Instead of a last minute panic, or even worse a complete lack of action, do something worthwhile this weekend and spend an hour communicating with the people who hold the power in this application.