Brexit - Leave or Remain poll

What sort of work though. The unemployment figure is not worth a light any more, especially for youngsters, with so many schemes and zero hours crap giving people "work" and "training" without the pay. There's a lot of hidden poverty out there and a lot of returning to the 1950s with youngsters unable to move on from their parents, or up to their ears with ludicrous rents. A bit like all the crime going on that is not recorded, particularly online fraud/scams and bank steals. I hear the latest little wheeze is to stop student nurse bursaries and replace them with loans.
None of the above is EU related. It's all made in the UK, and they can't wait to have free reign to make it a whole lot worse. The grapes of wrath, coming to a neighbourhood near you soon.
Funny how small people are hamstrung with regulation, yet the Banks and privatised utilities are free to do what they like, despite the headline regulatory bullshit. That will continue, in the EU or outside it. It's a corruption thing that has become a culture.

I would agree with the work comment although luckily both my boys have fallen on their feet, one has a trade and is happy as a pig in shite making good money and youngest is a trainee project manager who is doing an apprenticeship (which should be paid about £5.00/hr) although the firm he works for thinks that is derisory so they pay him almost double that, plus traveling and even whilst he is doing college work. He also gets private health care, decent pension and will get on the bonus scheme next year along with company car. He has other friends who are trainee accountants earning good money with a few moving into the health sector. All are doing real well with rosy futures. The other half are working between pub and cafe jobs, labouring ect and are earning feck all with the prospect of earning feck all for the rest of their lives. The disparity in earnings is ludicrous and has worried me more than anything. There is a proper wage trap and going to uni doesn't help either, most of the kids I know who are doing well have swerved uni and gone straight into their chosen profession, too many bullshit courses, too many degrees which have devalued the whole uni experience. I always said this would happen when the students had to pay for their own education it now doesn't matter what they do as long as they pay their fees and their accomadation then it's working for someone, sadly not them.

Sometimes it's the way things are said/written/posted/portrayed that can be more nauseous than even the content itself. Churning out graphs/charts/quotes to try and hammer home opinions constantly, gets a bit tedious. It's not as if anyone on here is even the slightest bit likely to have a Damascus Moment from reading it all.

Amsterdamage wrote:

Franny you have inferred racism by two quotes by memory, one was "you don't have to be racist to support UKIP but it helps" and more recently something along the lines of "all anti immigration supporters are racist" can't be bothered to scroll back and find them but there they are, like it or not.
As for the generational thing you ignored my assertion that my twenty year old said that he will vote out (remote government making crazy rules for him was the main reason given), migration not mentioned and also most of his friends would vote out also (no reasons given but I could ask if I thought you'd be interested?) His demographic is about fifty/fifty averagely qualified GCSE level school leavers to a level achievers with the odd uni educated one thrown in. Most are working, non are communist or Marxist (as far as I know) but Rollo would call most of them "lefties".

I have not said "all anti immigration supporters are racist". Once again I challenge you to quote it if I have but don't bother looking because I have not.

I have said "all racists will be anti-immigration" which is a very different thing - and surely not contentious in any way?

And that is certainly not me accusing you or anybody else of being racist.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

Amsterdamage wrote:

Franny you have inferred racism by two quotes by memory, one was "you don't have to be racist to support UKIP but it helps" and more recently something along the lines of "all anti immigration supporters are racist" can't be bothered to scroll back and find them but there they are, like it or not.
As for the generational thing you ignored my assertion that my twenty year old said that he will vote out (remote government making crazy rules for him was the main reason given), migration not mentioned and also most of his friends would vote out also (no reasons given but I could ask if I thought you'd be interested?) His demographic is about fifty/fifty averagely qualified GCSE level school leavers to a level achievers with the odd uni educated one thrown in. Most are working, non are communist or Marxist (as far as I know) but Rollo would call most of them "lefties".

I have not said  "all anti immigration supporters are racist". Once again I challenge you to quote it if I have but don't bother looking because I have not.

I have said "all racists will be anti-immigration" which is a very different thing - and surely not contentious in any way?

And that is certainly not me accusing you or anybody else of being racist.

It's the inferring of racism then and maybe I misunderstood you, I think not.

Let's have an answer!

Cut the rope or not, Frannie?

Don't leave us hanging...

Just about all statisticians will tell you there is often a bias of maybe 10% toward the status quo in a two way referendum, simply to avoid the fear of the unknown. It's quite natural and a bit like a lot of people avoid the doctor when suffering classic ill health symptoms, because they don't want to get a cancer diagnosis for instance.
I tend to quite like the idea of change, even if it is purely for the sake of the experience of something different. You only live once. The whole process of the UK trying to divorce the EU would be absolutely fascinating.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

Going over there, taking their jobs, creating pressure on their housing, schools and hospitals, drinking their beer etc

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Typical piece of Franny blocks, show a graphic which shows one thing then imply it means something else.

The vast majority of UK ex pats are either retired or working in high paid jobs, they add massively to the economies of their host nations, 420,000 EU nationals applied for NI Nos in the UK in 2014 alone, and that was down over 50k from 2013, half of them come from pith poor East European countries and are paid benefits here.

The vast majority are white and follow Christian religions, wanting to stem the flow hardly makes white, Christian, Brits racist does it?

England is the most densely populated major country in Europe, we pay out more in benefits to non nationals than the whole of the rest of the EU put together, excluding Germany, I 4-1 feel that enough is enough.

Hugh Midde wrote:

Frank Bullitt wrote:

Zyph, Turkey will never be in the EU. They know they won't ever join and think it's laughable we are even considering it.

It will. Amid mounting criticism of her stance on migration into Germany, Merkel has offered to speed up Turkey's application for EU membership      in return for cutting the flow of refugees across its borders.

Do you really believe everything a politician says?

Lord Tisdale wrote:

You're such a div Ludwig.

The £11 billion is our net contribution.

Yes you are about right..

"The UK net contribution to the EU budget is less than 0.5 per cent of British GDP".

"Well, the Confederation of British Industry - hardly a fluffy bunch of Bruges graduates - suggests the direct net economic benefits of membership to the UK are between £62bn and £78bn every year".

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The UK manufacturing sector is the fastest growing of the major EU economies.

That's good isn't it? And it's happening whilst we are in the EU.

The issue is about three years from now when the rapefugees have EU citizenship, then they will be on their way like rats up an aqueduct.

More scaremongering by you....

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Neither the German nor any other parliament will get a vote on TTIP.
What about TTIP? We stay in the EU it's a given.

Again, more waffle....

Ratification[edit]
The 28 governments will then have to approve or reject the negotiated agreement in the EU Council of Ministers, at which point the European Parliament will also be asked for its endorsement. The EU Parliament is empowered to approve or reject the agreement. Individual countries have different rules on approving and ratifying the document. For example, Article 53 of the French Constitution states, "trade treaties can only be ratified by a law" passed by the French Parliament. In the United States, both houses of the Congress would have to pass the agreement.[63]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Coastal sea angling is a huge industry which the EU is about to kill off costing thousands of jobs.

Is this about the sea bass stocks? If so, I couldn't agree with it more (and yes I'm an angler). There are plenty of other tasty species out there.


Why do you Pro EUSSR muppets never come up with one decent verifiable and quantifiable reason to stay in, all you ever talk about is the huge problems of leaving then you can never be specific about what they might be or how much they might cost, always just scaredy cat nonsense. I heard some stupid woman on the radio today saying EU countries would no longer supply us with info on suspected terrorists, what utter sh1t, does the mad cow think that currently the EU countries do not share terrorist info with the US, Australia, the African countries, India, South America or the rest of the world which does not pay £11 billion a year for a membership card to the EUSSR?

The scaredy cat play is all they have got and I think they have been sussed, what happened with the Sweaties will have wised up an awful lot of people.

When you can back up your arguments, I might be prepared to listen more.

Notice I haven't insulted you......

My responses are in green. Please take time to read the relevant links. Maybe you can provide counter arguments?

Moist_Von_Lipwig wrote:

LOL You just can't help it can you.

Nope, I can't help being right while muppets like you are consistently wrong about everything.

You pro EUSSR shills just parrot out the same old bollox but can never refute any of the basic facts, just tell me one good thing being in does for the average working Joe in this country?

Lord Tisdale wrote:

Moist_Von_Lipwig wrote:

LOL You just can't help it can you.

Nope, I can't help being right while muppets like you are consistently wrong about everything.

You pro EUSSR shills just parrot out the same old bollox but can never refute any of the basic facts, just tell me one good thing being in does for the average working Joe in this country?

How about the working time directive.

I'd like to see some actual "facts" which prove that we would be better off rather than just " we will save some money". Who would pocket the money saved?  How would the "average working Joe" be better off?

I'll respond to your other points when I have a bit more time.

Lord Tisdale wrote:

Moist_Von_Lipwig wrote:

LOL You just can't help it can you.

Nope, I can't help being right while muppets like you are consistently wrong about everything.

You pro EUSSR shills just parrot out the same old bollox but can never refute any of the basic facts, just tell me one good thing being in does for the average working Joe in this country?

I trust Europe to protect basic rights (human and workers) than I do any Tory Government.

Dick Trickle wrote:

I trust Europe to protect basic rights (human and workers) than I do any Tory Government.

Doesn't that go to the heart of the matter though, Dick. It's relatively easy to change our national government but it seems nigh on impossible to change the direction of pan European travel.

Charlie Wood wrote:

Dick Trickle wrote:

I trust Europe to protect basic rights (human and workers) than I do any Tory Government.

Doesn't that go to the heart of the matter though, Dick. It's relatively easy to change our national government but it seems nigh on impossible to change the direction of pan European travel.

I can't see our national government (or the tone of it) changing much over the coming years. Boundary alterations and the changes to the electoral register where 800,000, mainly young people, have disappeared make a Tory government more likely. In addition it seems that we have a naturally right wing electorate where the only chance of Labour success is to move to the right, which personally is depressing, but that's democracy.

I like the fact that Europe to some extent controls the natural behaviour of our government.

Dick Trickle wrote:

Charlie Wood wrote:

Dick Trickle wrote:

I trust Europe to protect basic rights (human and workers) than I do any Tory Government.

Doesn't that go to the heart of the matter though, Dick. It's relatively easy to change our national government but it seems nigh on impossible to change the direction of pan European travel.

I can't see our national government (or the tone of it) changing much over the coming years. Boundary alterations and the changes to the electoral register where 800,000, mainly young people, have disappeared make a Tory government more likely. In addition it seems that we have a naturally right wing electorate where the only chance of Labour success is to move to the right, which personally is depressing, but that's democracy.

I like the fact that Europe to some extent controls the natural behaviour of our government.

would you say the same thing if Europe veered to the right(a distinct possibility if the migration crisis continues unabated) and by some miraculous happenchance we found ourselves with a far left Corbyn government?

[quote="Dick Trickle"]

Charlie Wood wrote:

Dick Trickle wrote:

I trust Europe to protect basic rights (human and workers) than I do any Tory Government.

Doesn't that go to the heart of the matter though, Dick. It's relatively easy to change our national government but it seems nigh on impossible to change the direction of pan European travel.

I can't see our national government (or the tone of it) changing much over the coming years. Boundary alterations and the changes to the electoral register where 800,000, mainly young people, have disappeared make a Tory government more likely. In addition it seems that we have a naturally right wing electorate where the only chance of Labour success is to move to the right, which personally is depressing, but that's democracy.

I like the fact that Europe to some extent controls the natural behaviour of our government.

How does that work then Dick? You could argue it the other way around, I have met hundreds of people in the past in Spain and Portugal who used to sign on over here by post then have their dole payment sent abroad. There was feckin hell on and it was stopped, now the taxi drivers in Tavvy are nearly all Romanian with the odd Hungarian thrown in, working self employed they earn feck all but then send the working families tax credits back home to wife and kids. They are all without exception working for a year to save enough money to build a house but then they will return to said family. Don't get me wrong I don't blame them for abusing the system but I don't know why it isn't stopped? It doesn't benefit us at all, it keeps the low wage economy going because of low wages they don't pay any tax to speak of over here but send unheard amounts of money (at home) back home.
As for our government being controlled, don't make me laugh, how many disabled and less abled people have been put in poverty by the axe swinging on their benefits not to mention the bedroom tax. And our government could be controlled if it weren't for the pathetic "at least we don't live in Russia" apologencia.

Les Miserable wrote:

Dick Trickle wrote:

Charlie Wood wrote:

Dick Trickle wrote:

I trust Europe to protect basic rights (human and workers) than I do any Tory Government.

Doesn't that go to the heart of the matter though, Dick. It's relatively easy to change our national government but it seems nigh on impossible to change the direction of pan European travel.

I can't see our national government (or the tone of it) changing much over the coming years. Boundary alterations and the changes to the electoral register where 800,000, mainly young people, have disappeared make a Tory government more likely. In addition it seems that we have a naturally right wing electorate where the only chance of Labour success is to move to the right, which personally is depressing, but that's democracy.

I like the fact that Europe to some extent controls the natural behaviour of our government.

  would you say the same thing if Europe veered to the right(a distinct possibility if the migration crisis continues unabated) and by some miraculous happenchance we found ourselves with a far left Corbyn government?

The fact that Corbyn is now seen as far left (which he isn't), shows exactly how far the political centre ground has been skewed by self interested media.

I said far left Corbyn government, what about his oppo with the little red book.

Eamonn Andrews?

Amsterdamage wrote:

Dick Trickle wrote:

Charlie Wood wrote:

Dick Trickle wrote:

I trust Europe to protect basic rights (human and workers) than I do any Tory Government.

Doesn't that go to the heart of the matter though, Dick. It's relatively easy to change our national government but it seems nigh on impossible to change the direction of pan European travel.

I can't see our national government (or the tone of it) changing much over the coming years. Boundary alterations and the changes to the electoral register where 800,000, mainly young people, have disappeared make a Tory government more likely. In addition it seems that we have a naturally right wing electorate where the only chance of Labour success is to move to the right, which personally is depressing, but that's democracy.

I like the fact that Europe to some extent controls the natural behaviour of our government.

How does that work then Dick? You could argue it the other way around, I have met hundreds of people in the past in Spain and Portugal who used to sign on over here by post then have their dole payment sent abroad. There was feckin hell on and it was stopped, now the taxi drivers in Tavvy are nearly all Romanian with the odd Hungarian thrown in, working self employed they earn feck all but then send the working families tax credits back home to wife and kids. They are all without exception working for a year to save enough money to build a house but then they will return to said family. Don't get me wrong I don't blame them for abusing the system but I don't know why it isn't stopped? It doesn't benefit us at all, it keeps the low wage economy going because of low wages they don't pay any tax to speak of over here but send unheard amounts of money (at home) back home.
As for our government being controlled, don't make me laugh, how many disabled and less abled people have been put in poverty by the axe swinging on their benefits not to mention the bedroom tax. And our government could be controlled if it weren't for the pathetic "at least we don't live in Russia" apologencia.

I don't know enough about the taxi drivers in Tavvy and their financial affairs to comment but I have no problem with people working in a country for a period of time, paying their taxes when appropriate and benefiting from the local systems in place in that country. Thousands of UK citizens are doing that and sending their money home. Of course if there was a genuine minimum living wage then there would be no need for working tax credits but that is another discussion.

It is clear that if people have a strong opinion on this subject either way it is unlikely that any argument put forward by the other side will sway their opinion and I guess that includes me.

Anyway how's Brent voting.......I trust him.

Dick Trickle wrote:

it is unlikely that any argument put forward by the other side will sway their opinion and I guess that includes me.

Not so, I'm still open to persuasion and in search of cold, hard facts from both sides of the debate(good luck with that). A closed mind is an empty vessel.

Moist_Von_Lipwig wrote:

Hugh Midde wrote:

Frank Bullitt wrote:

Zyph, Turkey will never be in the EU. They know they won't ever join and think it's laughable we are even considering it.

It will. Amid mounting criticism of her stance on migration into Germany, Merkel has offered to speed up Turkey's application for EU membership      in return for cutting the flow of refugees across its borders.

Do you really believe everything a politician says?

I'm sure General Rose doesn't.

As for myself, the answer is no, especially since that misleading barista Wilson. Cameron is the latest shifty turd. After all he's said and done, could you imagine him leading an out vote.

Haven't the Germans always blackballed every attempt by Turkey to join the EU? This time I feel they'll stand aside.

Les Miserable wrote:

Dick Trickle wrote:

it is unlikely that any argument put forward by the other side will sway their opinion and I guess that includes me.

Not so, I'm still open to persuasion and in search of cold, hard facts from both sides of the debate(good luck with that). A closed mind is an empty vessel.

You've part quoted me. I was referring to those people who already have strong opinions one way or another.

It is clear from the opinion on this thread that where people have strong opinions they are unlikely to change their mind as there is so much information and mis-information surrounding the debate. Crikey even the Justice Secretary and the PM can't agree on the legal basis of Cameron's proposals so what hope is there for the rest of us.

Dick Trickle wrote:

Charlie Wood wrote:

Dick Trickle wrote:

I trust Europe to protect basic rights (human and workers) than I do any Tory Government.

Doesn't that go to the heart of the matter though, Dick. It's relatively easy to change our national government but it seems nigh on impossible to change the direction of pan European travel.

Boundary alterations and the changes to the electoral register where 800,000, mainly young people, have disappeared make a Tory government more likely. In addition it seems that we have a naturally right wing electorate where the only chance of Labour success is to move to the right, which personally is depressing, but that's democracy.

Turn and turn about isn't it. The 2005 general election saw Tony Blair's Labour win 35.2 per cent of the popular vote, compared to 32.4 per cent for the Tories.

Despite the fact that the differences between the total votes cast for both parties were very small, Labour ended up with 355 seats while the Conservatives got just 198. That's 55 per cent compared to 30 per cent.

Being happy or aggrieved rather depends on who you voted for.