The EU referendum rolls on and on.

I see Pig Porking Dave has finally come up with his list of demands in a letter to some Pole that nobody has ever heard of, except of course there aren't any specific demands in it, apparently we should just like them to be a bit nicer to us and then Dave and all his little piglets will put their hearts and souls into convincing the British public to vote to stay as just a third of a star on another man's flag.

The EU is good for politicians, bureaucrats, big business and people from piss poor countries that can go to Germany, Holland, Belgium, Sweden and Denmark, or come here, to claim benefits.

For all the talk about how immigration benefits us the facts are that nearly fifty percent of all EU immigrants claim benefits here and that the average paid in in-work benefits is over £5k a year. This year we shall pay pretty close to the £50 million a day that UKIP have been going on about in membership fees, the actual figure being over a billion pounds a month, EU regulations will cost the economy somewhere between £29 billion and £70 billion in lost business depending on who you believe, eminent Prof Minford came out the other day to say that the cost of living would drop by 8% almost immediately if we were able to source food at world market prices rather than abide by CAP, while all the time we run a trade in goods deficit with the EU of getting on for £7 billion a month, when we joined we had a balance of payments surplus with the then Common Market countries.

Pro EUers always bleat on about how the economy would collapse and millions of jobs would go if we voted to Leave but that is just so much scaremongering crap, the EU nations make a fortune selling their manufactured goods to us, the last thing they would want is a trade war, besides which just about the only thing which supercedes the EU is the WTO and their rules specifically forbid any such action.

What concerns me most is the way the EU brain washes people, it spends more of your money on advertising that Coca-forking-Cola, £2.4 billion a year on propaganda designed to keep their gravy train rolling.

Another huge problem is the nature of those leading the charge out, Nigey and a bunch of weirdos like John Redwood along with one or two pretty unsavoury billionaires are putting off more than they are dragging in, we could easily finish up like the Sweaties who were scared out of voting for independence by the establishment only to wake up the week after and realise there wasn't ever anything to be scared of.

I am 100% for Leaving the EU, not because I am against immigration per se, controlled immigration is necessary to keep us ticking along, but I am against uncontrolled immigration from all the EU countries and through that just about every chancer who wants to tun up on a Greek beach and claim refugee status despite having his I phone on contract. I want business to be able to trade with the whole world without the say so of some bureaucrat in Brussels, after Brexit 15 of the world's top 20 economies would be outside of the EU and only 4 of them have free trade agreements with the EU, the EU is interminably slow at trying to negotiate deals because to get 28 countries to agree is like getting cats to walk in a parade. I don't want the EU to be picking fights with Russia in the Ukraine on my behalf, I don't want an EU army, I don't want the EU to take Britain's place on the UN Security Council, I don't want the bulk of the laws which govern my day to day life made by unelected bureaucrats, if I don't like something I want to be able to vote against the feckers who are having me over.

The people who govern you should at the very least be subject to the will of the people, I know our cock eyed voting system means a party can take power based on less than a quarter of the people voting for them, but that isn't the point, if enough people felt strongly enough we could dump the Tories, you can't do that with the EU, they just carry one making up new rules and spending more of your hard earned on dumb ass schemes like the Euro and lending huge amounts to failed states like Greece with no chance of ever getting it back.

That's all I am saying, a fair fight on a level playing field would do me but that ain't happening, the EU will be spending £2.4 billion on propaganda this year and next, much of that will be directed as ensuring the British public is brain washed into believing that it is EU good, Brexit bad, neither staying in nor getting out is a panacea for all that ails us, the truth is probably that either choice would not make a great deal of difference in the long term, but at least the decisions that matter would be being made by people we could actually hold to some degree of account.

The TTIP scares me, which allows the yanks to flog us chicken washed in chlorine and sue any government that tries to stop them and fast track the privatisation of the NHS, (although I suppose that horse has bolted in reality). A trade deal which we get no say in whether it goes through or not.

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Cameron is hailing a big agreement with Europe that has achieved the sum of feck all. We can apply benefit break with the agreement of a majority of eu states which isn't going to happen. Can't wait for the red faced wanker trying to defend this in the house.

Amsterdamage wrote:

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Cameron is hailing a big agreement with Europe that has achieved the sum of feck all. We can apply benefit break with the agreement of a majority of eu states which isn't going to happen. Can't wait for the red faced wanker trying to defend this in the house.

Yep, in order to be able to apply the "emergncy brake" you will have to stop and wait for 14 other nations to agree with you, as there are only 7 other countires which actually have to stump up serious money to be in the club the chances of 14 out of 27 agreeing with us saving some money is pretty bleddy remote.

Lord Tisdale wrote:

The EU is good for politicians, bureaucrats, and big business

No different than Westminster then.
Cameron is just trying to hoover up the racist vote from UKIP, and getting on the press sponsored undeserving poor routine. It worked in the general election and will probably work again in taking UKIP support.

I'm ambivalent to the whole thing, given both camps are sponsored and owned by big business. I slightly lean to Europe in it's desire for human rights, some form of workers' protection, as opposed to the let 'em starve/go to jail without representation bunch that run this country. And there is the no small feat of peace in Europe for 70 years. In short, I'm mildy Scottish.
Come the referendum, we'll be treated like the Scots were. Threatened, lied to, promised the world, and then they'll go back on it whatever happens.
A lose lose situation for me.

Lord Biro wrote:

Lord Tisdale wrote:

The EU is good for politicians, bureaucrats, and big business

No different than Westminster then.
Cameron is just trying to hoover up the racist vote from UKIP, and getting on the press sponsored undeserving poor routine. It worked in the general election and will probably work again in taking UKIP support.

I'm ambivalent to the whole thing, given both camps are sponsored and owned by big business. I slightly lean to Europe in it's desire for human rights, some form of workers' protection, as opposed to the let 'em starve/go to jail without representation bunch that run this country. And there is the no small feat of peace in Europe for 70 years. In short, I'm mildy Scottish.
Come the referendum, we'll be treated like the Scots were. Threatened, lied to, promised the world, and then they'll go back on it whatever happens.
A lose lose situation for me.

I'm sure you over estimate the amount of racists that are opposed to being I Europe the majority of people I know who oppose Europe aren't racist and I'm not myself, I object to the simple cost of it and the extra layer of beaurocracy, again which costs a fortune. I think it's all too imperial, why should somebody who doesn't even live in my country decide what I do? Pretty much agree with everything else you say but until the British relearn how to fight for our rights as workers and citizens then Europe or no Europe and they will all be steadily eroded.

Amsterdamage wrote:

I'm sure you over estimate the amount of racists that are opposed to being I Europe the majority of people I know who oppose Europe aren't racist and I'm not myself, I object to the simple cost of it and the extra layer of beaurocracy, again which costs a fortune. I think it's all too imperial, why should somebody who doesn't even live in my country decide what I do? Pretty much agree with everything else you say but until the British relearn how to fight for our rights as workers and citizens then Europe or no Europe and they will all be steadily eroded.

The emboldened bit is very true, but they've really been nobbled in the head. It'll take a fair bit of abuse for resistance in the workplace to return. It's a climatic thing.
There's a EU gravy train, no doubt about it, and no empire has avoided corruption, but then it's a handy steam release for all the individual nationalities to have a pop at without seeing the real enemy at home.
I used to  be pro Europe, but the way the Germans rode rough shod over the Greeks woke me up to what could be going on. Frankfurt is no better than London, of course, and it does appear to be coming a bit of a Central/Eastern European/German empire with the age old split with the Western Atlantic and Med countries, quaintly called the PIGS plus GB, and the cold independents. We have the USA bond to keep us warm. Eire and Scotland have the dislike of us for very good reason, so the EU is a no brainer for them. It's almost tribal like it always was

As usual, this referendum/election will have no option that I can fully back, so best I get on with my politics in my own way.

Out for me. The sooner the better.

i'll be voting no as it stands

I'm voting no as with any luck it will destroy the Conservatives, the TTIP which is as good a reason to get out of it alone and the idea of mediocre bureaucrats like Juncker have anything to do with us.
The downside is the likes of Norway and Switzerland still have to cough up without any say in its running but if we exit, hopefully others like the Dutch and the Danes will also agitate for a plebiscite and the whole thing will topple.

Hugh Watt wrote:

I'm voting no as with any luck it will destroy the Conservatives, the TTIP which is as good a reason to get out of it alone and the idea of mediocre bureaucrats like Juncker have anything to do with us.
The downside is the likes of Norway and Switzerland still have to cough up without any say in its running but if we exit, hopefully others like the Dutch and the Danes will also agitate for a plebiscite and the whole thing will topple.

You are such a **** Huge, Switzerland and Norway have to cough because they need to sell to the EU, we are are a massive net importer of goods from EU countries, they desperately need our business.

Why is it so many people simply don't understand the fundamentals?

So we should leave the EU because we have a trade deficiit which is now a national embarrassment?

Our exports to the EU were around 45% of total exports, hows that for fundametals? Not hard is it?

You really are a complete Cock, Turds.

Stay in. Sign up to Schengen and relax border control.

Inevitably Cameron is portraying his "concessions" as a triumph,equally inevitably the Tory Toady section [Soames,Hampson and the rest of them]are now licking their obsequious lips in support.Cameron is very arrogant and patronising on the issue,admitting that no work had been done in planning the future should the vote be No-i do hope he gets a kick up the arse from the British people in the referendum.I just can't forget the way that the current status quo came about and how people were conned by Wilson,Heath and all the others who insisted that the intention was for free trade rather than any deeper political outcome-Common market-EEC-EC-EU introduced by stealth and totally contrary to democratic principles as i understood them.If people had been told the truth in 1975,then there is no way that the vote would have been Yes and they knew it-integration by deceit on one of the biggest issues in the history of Britain.Total nonsense to say that Britain would be unable to cope adequately outside the EU-plenty of other countries with far less resources than GB seem to do OK,also very dubious to give credit to EFTA/EU for keeping the peace for 70 years-more like the huge allied presence in Germany and nuclear weapons,morally repugnant though they are.Out every time for me and weirdly enough in spite of all polls to the contrary,approximately 80% of people that i've spoken to on the matter think the same.

The polls do appear to be wildly wrong(again), most people I've spoken to on the subject want out.

Hugh Watt wrote:

So we should leave the EU because we have a trade deficiit which is now a national embarrassment?

Our exports to the EU were around 45% of total exports, hows that for fundametals? Not hard is it?

You really are a complete Cock, Turds.

Such a pill.

UK exports to to EU in 2000 were 55% of the total, now they are just 45%, a figure which is inflated by the Rotterdam Effect, summat you wont have heard of.

The point turd breath being that the importance of the EU as a market is declining at an ever increasing rate, in itself not the best reason for baling but most certainly not a major incentive to go on coughing up an ever increasing net contribution, maybe as much as £13 billion this year alone.

We should leave because betting our future on the EU which is in terminal decline is not a bright thing to do, I doubt you can recognise bright having never suffered with it yourself. We get nothing for our £13 billion, there really are no tangible economic advantages to being in the EU, they have done one free trade agreement with a major trading nation in 60 years, surely even the Tories could better that. Every time the EU negotiates it is subject to veto by any one of it's 28 member nations, what are the chances that the interests of an economy like ours might coincide with say Latvia or Bulgaria?

Our annual sales to EU nations amount to less than £200 billion and are falling, sales to non EU nations are over £250 billion and rising despite our being unable to close any deal without EU agreement. After Brexit any loss in sales to the EU, which would most probably be marginal, would be more than offset by an increase in sales to the rest of the world.

Why?

Les Miserable wrote:

The polls do appear to be wildly wrong(again), most people I've spoken to on the subject want out.

What do the polls actually show?

It seems to me that responses were showing a fairly even split when the actual question was asked, the big Remain leads related only to polls where the question was couched relative to Pig Porking Dave getting a good deal, the outcomes also being skewed by the large percentage of don't knows, historically referendums turn late as people either make up their minds on the facts or panic as the Sweaties did.

I too only seem to come across a large majority for Leave, perhaps that is because I tend not to hang with morons or rich people, perhaps the polls which come out after this joke of a renegotiation has been digested by the electorate will show a margin in favour of Leave, the only poll that matters is on the day.

Realise now how great Charles de Gaul was, when he said Non.

In, with even greater integration.

Lord Tisdale wrote:

Hugh Watt wrote:

So we should leave the EU because we have a trade deficiit which is now a national embarrassment?

Our exports to the EU were around 45% of total exports, hows that for fundametals? Not hard is it?

You really are a complete Cock, Turds.

Such a pill.

UK exports to to EU in 2000 were 55% of the total, now they are just 45%, a figure which is inflated by the Rotterdam Effect, summat you wont have heard of.

The point turd breath being that the importance of the EU as a market is declining at an ever increasing rate, in itself not the best reason for baling but most certainly not a major incentive to go on coughing up   an ever increasing net contribution, maybe as much as £13 billion this year alone.

We should leave because betting our future on the EU which is in terminal decline is not a bright thing to do, I doubt you can recognise bright having never suffered with it yourself. We get nothing for our £13 billion, there really are no tangible economic advantages to being in the EU, they have done one free trade agreement with a major trading nation in 60 years, surely even the Tories could better that. Every time the EU negotiates it is subject to veto by any one of it's 28 member nations, what are the chances that the interests of an economy like ours might coincide with say Latvia or Bulgaria?

Our annual sales to EU nations amount to less than £200 billion and are falling, sales to non EU nations are over £250 billion and rising despite our being unable to close any deal without EU agreement. After Brexit any loss in sales to the EU, which would most probably be marginal, would be more than offset by an increase in sales to the rest of the world.

Stupid thing is I don't actually disagree with you, but being a sad bitter and gobby Internet troll you are too pig ignorant to realise it

Les Miserable wrote:

The polls do appear to be wildly wrong(again), most people I've spoken to on the subject want out.

Which Conservative club do you drink in?

Some groups really really want to stay in like the farmers for instance. They export grain and meat to Europe even though the trade in cheap milk from Poland means that our milk producers might as well pour their milk down the drain or stop producing it but then the subsidies would stop then.
A bit of a trend with the subsidies and match funded payments to business from EU (via us cash cows which is the most valuable farming of all) which haven't been curtailed at all even in these austerity hit times. Whilst our local hospital is in meltdown and on special measures every time ten people get the flu my farmer neighbour recieved £1.4m from EU (via us I may add) to play at farming which in effect is a front for a huge shooting and fishing estate. It's even been rumoured that my mp "save the fox" Geoffery Cocks likes the odd day the at the high birds.

Out. Red tape and bureaucracy are the enemies of democracy IMO, shedding several layers of that shite won't do us any harm.

The Mail say this today, couldn't agree more,
"for months we have been bombarded with propaganda from one side: the side that speaks for Brussels". The BBC and the Civil Service are criticised by the Mail for pursuing an agenda that leaving the EU would be "a catastrophe". But the "out" campaigns are also in the paper's sights, ridiculed for being "cranks and nonentities". The "frankly pathetic level of the debate so far is a grotesque offence against British democracy", says the Mail.

It's just too easy for the pm these days with the general population seemingly unable or unwilling to think for themselves and the Beeb firmly in the pocket of the ruling party.