Mass Net Immigration.....Again.

I see the Australian PM has caused a stir by suggesting that daesh are worse than the nazis, he has a point I suppose, daesh are just plain evil living in a past tense and trying to conquer the entire planet using inhumane tactics.

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I found this article from The Berkeley Blog, February 2015. Interesting read.

Four paragraphs stick out from the report.

To defeat the Islamic State and contain ISIS fighters, the ground campaign would need to be led by first-tier Western armies, would need to be of a scale equivalent to the invasion of Iraq in 2003, and would need the cooperation of Iraq’s neighbors, so that Iraq’s borders can be closed, otherwise ISIS fighters would escape to other failed states.

This cooperation would need to include not just Western “allies” Kurdistan and Turkey, but at least tacit cooperation from Western “enemies” Syria and Iran. The greater challenge would be to keep Syria and Iran from expanding their presence in Iraq, which is another reason for the West to lead and to commit sufficient capacity to defeat ISIS without dependency on any foreign state. The West could not even rely on Iraq, but would need to plan to reconstitute Iraq’s central government as the representative secular state that the previous coalition failed to leave behind in 2008.

Western intervention of the scale and scope required to defeat ISIS will not happen, given popular aversion to further ground commitments of the type that failed to stabilize Afghanistan and Iraq already, and the elite’s political correctness and complacency about the true risks presented by a caliphate.

Without a Western-led invasion, ISIS will dominate its current territory indefinitely, in yet another lingering civil war, in yet another failed state, with yet more contagion to other states. Consolidating its territory over years if not decades (an average civil war lasts 7 years; some have lasted 30), it would certainly redirect its idle capacity to the homelands of its avowed but indecisive enemies, as Jihadis always promise.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

The Germans are putting us to shame on this one.

I wouldn't believe everything you read.

What is said in public is very different to what is being said in private!!!! I haven't met one German yet who is in favour of the 800,000 figure (one million is now being quoted). 800,000 is around 1% of the population and just a bit smaller than the population of Cologne (c. 1M). There are also concerns about the number coming next year and the following year ............

There is a sympathy for genuine refugees and they will be welcomed.

The vast majority of people I have spoken to are concerned that too many of the people trying to enter Germany are not genuine refugees but only people coming for handouts. Why so many young men? Where are the families? How you sort the genuine from the fake is another matter though.

Also there are big concerns over cultural differences and problems between the various factions/groups being brought to the streets.

Germany is not ready to deal with the influx. There are not enough people to deal with the applications. One local council has decided to erect tents on an island in the Rhine. What they will do in the winter when it's cold and the river rises I don't know. Nobody knows what is actually happening. It's mostly rumours at the moment regarding future numbers etc.

Kids can't do sports at school because the sports hall is being used as accommodation. One centre has been moved due to a petition by nearby residents. A friend of mine bought a house near where another centre will soon open. His property value has plummeted.
A woman I know who lives in a small town is afraid to go out alone at night because of groups of young men on the streets.

I see it myself. There are a lot of new people here. A lot of (not western European) young men on the street (they have even surrounded me and asked for money - I said no!). The betting shops are doing a roaring trade though!!!! A lot of these people are taking the piss!!

There are around another 1,800 people reported to be coming to the area around here. They will all require permanent accommodation at some time. Accommodation is scarce here and people fear that the rents will increase as a result......

It's not all hunky dory here......

Moist_Von_Lipwig wrote:

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

The Germans are putting us to shame on this one.

I wouldn't believe everything you read.

What is said in public is very different to what is being said in private!!!! I haven't met one German yet who is in favour of the 800,000 figure (one million is now being quoted). 800,000 is around 1% of the population and just a bit smaller than the population of Cologne (c. 1M). There are also concerns about the number coming next year and the following year ............

There is a sympathy for genuine refugees and they will be welcomed.

The vast majority of people I have spoken to are concerned that too many of the people trying to enter Germany are not genuine refugees but only people coming for handouts. Why so many young men? Where are the families? How you sort the genuine from the fake is another matter though.

Also there are big concerns over cultural differences and problems between the various factions/groups being brought to the streets.

Germany is not ready to deal with the influx. There are not enough people to deal with the applications. One local council has decided to erect tents on an island in the Rhine. What they will do in the winter when it's cold and the river rises I don't know. Nobody knows what is actually happening. It's mostly rumours at the moment regarding future numbers etc.

Kids can't do sports at school because the sports hall is being used as accommodation. One centre has been moved due to a petition by nearby residents. A friend of mine bought a house near where another centre will soon open. His property value has plummeted.
A woman I know who lives in a small town is afraid to go out alone at night because of groups of young men on the streets.

I see it myself. There are a lot of new people here. A lot of (not western European) young men on the street (they have even surrounded me and asked for money - I said no!). The betting shops are doing a roaring trade though!!!! A lot of these people are taking the piss!!

There are around another 1,800 people reported to be coming to the area around here. They will all require permanent accommodation at some time. Accommodation is scarce here and people fear that the rents will increase as a result......

It's not all hunky dory here......

Eh, Franny'll have none of that thank you, he'll not hear a bad word said about those lovely people, the guardian say they're all genuine so they must be, we are totally responsible for this mess and should all be self flagellating

I have just seen local Tory MP, Johnny Mercer, on the itv westcountry news and he was saying that military action is an option that is being explored, he went on to suggest that the UK can do more other than bombing alone. A hint perhaps ?.

Moist_Von_Lipwig wrote:

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

The Germans are putting us to shame on this one.

I wouldn't believe everything you read.

What is said in public is very different to what is being said in private!!!! I haven't met one German yet who is in favour of the 800,000 figure (one million is now being quoted). 800,000 is around 1% of the population and just a bit smaller than the population of Cologne (c. 1M). There are also concerns about the number coming next year and the following year ............

There is a sympathy for genuine refugees and they will be welcomed.

The vast majority of people I have spoken to are concerned that too many of the people trying to enter Germany are not genuine refugees but only people coming for handouts. Why so many young men? Where are the families? How you sort the genuine from the fake is another matter though.

Also there are big concerns over cultural differences and problems between the various factions/groups being brought to the streets.

Germany is not ready to deal with the influx. There are not enough people to deal with the applications. One local council has decided to erect tents on an island in the Rhine. What they will do in the winter when it's cold and the river rises I don't know. Nobody knows what is actually happening. It's mostly rumours at the moment regarding future numbers etc.

Kids can't do sports at school because the sports hall is being used as accommodation. One centre has been moved due to a petition by nearby residents. A friend of mine bought a house near where another centre will soon open. His property value has plummeted.
A woman I know who lives in a small town is afraid to go out alone at night because of groups of young men on the streets.

I see it myself. There are a lot of new people here. A lot of (not western European) young men on the street (they have even surrounded me and asked for money - I said no!). The betting shops are doing a roaring trade though!!!! A lot of these people are taking the piss!!

There are around another 1,800 people reported to be coming to the area around here. They will all require permanent accommodation at some time. Accommodation is scarce here and people fear that the rents will increase as a result......

It's not all hunky dory here......

And the rumours still persist that a number of those young men are daesh fighters that want to cause harm to European cities. What an ideal way to start that by pretending to be a refugee or persecuted migrant and gain admission to whatever European country.

An extremely frightening thought, if those rumours are true.

VillageGreen wrote:

And the rumours still persist that a number of those young men are daesh fighters that want to cause harm to European cities. What an ideal way to start that by pretending to be a refugee or persecuted migrant and gain admission to whatever European country.

An extremely frightening thought, if those rumours are true.

I'd say it's an aboslute certainty that 100s if not 1000s of islamic state fighters have arrived as 'refugees' from Syria and Libya and have already been given free passage to move around europe.  It's not a case of if major terrorist attrocities will happen but when.

Freathy wrote:

VillageGreen wrote:

And the rumours still persist that a number of those young men are daesh fighters that want to cause harm to European cities. What an ideal way to start that by pretending to be a refugee or persecuted migrant and gain admission to whatever European country.

An extremely frightening thought, if those rumours are true.

I'd say it's an aboslute certainty that 100s if not 1000s of islamic state fighters have arrived as 'refugees' from Syria and Libya and have already been given free passage to move around europe.  It's not a case of if major terrorist attrocities will happen but when.

i agree. islamic state arent stupid and will have had members smuggled into these countries hiding amongst the genuine refugees.

Angry wrote:

Freathy wrote:

VillageGreen wrote:

And the rumours still persist that a number of those young men are daesh fighters that want to cause harm to European cities. What an ideal way to start that by pretending to be a refugee or persecuted migrant and gain admission to whatever European country.

An extremely frightening thought, if those rumours are true.

I'd say it's an aboslute certainty that 100s if not 1000s of islamic state fighters have arrived as 'refugees' from Syria and Libya and have already been given free passage to move around europe.  It's not a case of if major terrorist attrocities will happen but when.

i agree. islamic state arent stupid and will have had members smuggled into these countries hiding amongst the genuine refugees.

Disagree. ISIS and ISIL need all the fighters they can out in the Middle East, hence the need to recruit Westerners.They are not sending experienced fighters to act as sleepers in Europe and replacing them with naive kids from Bradford.

Frank Bullitt wrote:

Angry wrote:

Freathy wrote:

VillageGreen wrote:

And the rumours still persist that a number of those young men are daesh fighters that want to cause harm to European cities. What an ideal way to start that by pretending to be a refugee or persecuted migrant and gain admission to whatever European country.

An extremely frightening thought, if those rumours are true.

I'd say it's an aboslute certainty that 100s if not 1000s of islamic state fighters have arrived as 'refugees' from Syria and Libya and have already been given free passage to move around europe.  It's not a case of if major terrorist attrocities will happen but when.

i agree. islamic state arent stupid and will have had members smuggled into these countries hiding amongst the genuine refugees.

Disagree. ISIS and ISIL need all the fighters they can out in the Middle East, hence the need to recruit Westerners.They are not sending experienced fighters to act as sleepers in Europe and replacing them with naive kids from Bradford.

Would any individual or group need to be experienced fighters in order to carry out a successful terrorist attack?

Greenskin wrote:

Frank Bullitt wrote:

Angry wrote:

Freathy wrote:

VillageGreen wrote:

And the rumours still persist that a number of those young men are daesh fighters that want to cause harm to European cities. What an ideal way to start that by pretending to be a refugee or persecuted migrant and gain admission to whatever European country.

An extremely frightening thought, if those rumours are true.

I'd say it's an aboslute certainty that 100s if not 1000s of islamic state fighters have arrived as 'refugees' from Syria and Libya and have already been given free passage to move around europe.  It's not a case of if major terrorist attrocities will happen but when.

i agree. islamic state arent stupid and will have had members smuggled into these countries hiding amongst the genuine refugees.

Disagree. ISIS and ISIL need all the fighters they can out in the Middle East, hence the need to recruit Westerners.They are not sending experienced fighters to act as sleepers in Europe and replacing them with naive kids from Bradford.

Would any individual or group need to be experienced fighters in order to carry out a successful terrorist attack?

Well I don't imagine that there are many experienced suicide bombers.

Greenskin wrote:

Frank Bullitt wrote:

Angry wrote:

Freathy wrote:

VillageGreen wrote:

And the rumours still persist that a number of those young men are daesh fighters that want to cause harm to European cities. What an ideal way to start that by pretending to be a refugee or persecuted migrant and gain admission to whatever European country.

An extremely frightening thought, if those rumours are true.

I'd say it's an aboslute certainty that 100s if not 1000s of islamic state fighters have arrived as 'refugees' from Syria and Libya and have already been given free passage to move around europe.  It's not a case of if major terrorist attrocities will happen but when.

i agree. islamic state arent stupid and will have had members smuggled into these countries hiding amongst the genuine refugees.

Disagree. ISIS and ISIL need all the fighters they can out in the Middle East, hence the need to recruit Westerners.They are not sending experienced fighters to act as sleepers in Europe and replacing them with naive kids from Bradford.

Would any individual or group need to be experienced fighters in order to carry out a successful terrorist attack?

was going to say pretty much the same thing..

So who are they sending then? Victory for ISIS and ISIL is far from guaranteed and they are desperate for fighters. They don't have hundreds or thousands of fighters (experienced or not), to send to Europe.

Surely they have enough radicalised European extremists already?

Frank Bullitt wrote:

Greenskin wrote:

Frank Bullitt wrote:

Angry wrote:

Freathy wrote:

VillageGreen wrote:

And the rumours still persist that a number of those young men are daesh fighters that want to cause harm to European cities. What an ideal way to start that by pretending to be a refugee or persecuted migrant and gain admission to whatever European country.

An extremely frightening thought, if those rumours are true.

I'd say it's an aboslute certainty that 100s if not 1000s of islamic state fighters have arrived as 'refugees' from Syria and Libya and have already been given free passage to move around europe.  It's not a case of if major terrorist attrocities will happen but when.

i agree. islamic state arent stupid and will have had members smuggled into these countries hiding amongst the genuine refugees.

Disagree. ISIS and ISIL need all the fighters they can out in the Middle East, hence the need to recruit Westerners.They are not sending experienced fighters to act as sleepers in Europe and replacing them with naive kids from Bradford.

Would any individual or group need to be experienced fighters in order to carry out a successful terrorist attack?

Well I don't imagine that there are many experienced suicide bombers.

Surely though there would be a difference between people whose skills [for want of a better word] are more suited to planning and executing subversive activities rather than fighting at the front?

Greenskin wrote:

Frank Bullitt wrote:

Greenskin wrote:

Frank Bullitt wrote:

Angry wrote:

Freathy wrote:

VillageGreen wrote:

And the rumours still persist that a number of those young men are daesh fighters that want to cause harm to European cities. What an ideal way to start that by pretending to be a refugee or persecuted migrant and gain admission to whatever European country.

An extremely frightening thought, if those rumours are true.

I'd say it's an aboslute certainty that 100s if not 1000s of islamic state fighters have arrived as 'refugees' from Syria and Libya and have already been given free passage to move around europe.  It's not a case of if major terrorist attrocities will happen but when.

i agree. islamic state arent stupid and will have had members smuggled into these countries hiding amongst the genuine refugees.

Disagree. ISIS and ISIL need all the fighters they can out in the Middle East, hence the need to recruit Westerners.They are not sending experienced fighters to act as sleepers in Europe and replacing them with naive kids from Bradford.

Would any individual or group need to be experienced fighters in order to carry out a successful terrorist attack?

Well I don't imagine that there are many experienced suicide bombers.

Surely though there would be a difference between people whose skills [for want of a better word] are more suited to planning and executing subversive activities rather than fighting at the front?

Quite possibly, but I doubt people with these "skills" would need to disguise their travel movements by hiding among refugees.

Frank Bullitt wrote:

Well I don't imagine that there are many experienced suicide bombers.

Very droll.

Freathy wrote:

VillageGreen wrote:

And the rumours still persist that a number of those young men are daesh fighters that want to cause harm to European cities. What an ideal way to start that by pretending to be a refugee or persecuted migrant and gain admission to whatever European country.

An extremely frightening thought, if those rumours are true.

I'd say it's an aboslute certainty that 100s if not 1000s of islamic state fighters have arrived as 'refugees' from Syria and Libya and have already been given free passage to move around europe.  It's not a case of if major terrorist attrocities will happen but when.

I fear you are correct.
Its a very emotive subject and the numbers linked to refugees or asylum seekers or migrants can be manipulated to back up any press story - whatever story the press want to publish! One thing for certain is that some of the stories from refugees are heart wrenching and sad. Only last week I was in Plymouth recruiting volunteers to help refugees when they arrive in Plymouth. As a dispersal city Plymouth gets a fair number. (Exeter is in line to become a dispersal city in the near future)
I have thought for a while that rather than having refugees, migrants or asylum seekers wandering around UK while their cases are heard why not open up some of the 'mothballed'' military bases where they will have shelter, food, friends and possibly some cash for personal items.

Would we lock them in the "mothballed" military bases or would they be free to come and go?

Frank Bullitt wrote:

Would we lock them in the "mothballed" military bases or would they be free to come and go?

That is an excellent point.

David Cameron rides in on his white horse.

Some interesting snippets below.

Mr Cameron said, the focus should be on bringing "peace and stability" to the war-ravaged parts of the world people were fleeing from, such as Syria.

He said the UK would continue to take in "thousands" of refugees, but he cautioned that this was not the only answer to the crisis, saying a "comprehensive solution" was required.

It is clear that Downing Street has concluded the political pressure does require them to give an additional response.

But David Cameron may look for a way to do that while not conceding his central point that this crisis is sollved by treating the problem at its source and finding long term stability in the region.

Pretty much what Johnny Mercer was talking about earlier today.

Frank Bullitt wrote:

Would we lock them in the "mothballed" military bases or would they be free to come and go?

Havn't thought beyond the idea really but if they had shelter, bed, food, clothes, some leisure activities etc it wouldn't make sense to wander off .. would it?

[quote="Freathy"]

VillageGreen wrote:

And the rumours still persist that a number of those young men are daesh fighters that want to cause harm to European cities. What an ideal way to start that by pretending to be a refugee or persecuted migrant and gain admission to whatever European country.

An extremely frightening thought, if those rumours are true.[/quot

I'd say it's an aboslute certainty that 100s if not 1000s of islamic state fighters have arrived as 'refugees' from Syria and Libya and have already been given free passage to move around europe.  It's not a case of if major terrorist attrocities will happen but when.

All they need is seven machine guns one man for each exit......something to think about on your next visit to the mall.

How long before armed response arrive ? 20,30,40 mins ?

VillageGreen wrote:

David Cameron rides in on his white horse.

Some interesting snippets below.

Mr Cameron said, the focus should be on bringing "peace and stability" to the war-ravaged parts of the world people were fleeing from, such as Syria.

He said the UK would continue to take in "thousands" of refugees, but he cautioned that this was not the only answer to the crisis, saying a "comprehensive solution" was required.

It is clear that Downing Street has concluded the political pressure does require them to give an additional response.

But David Cameron may look for a way to do that while not conceding his central point that this crisis is sollved by treating the problem at its source and finding long term stability in the region.

Pretty much what Johnny Mercer was talking about earlier today.

Like I said earlier our government is "completely, demonstrably and undeniably on the wrong side of this one" but they're savvy enough to know it and they have been dragged towards a "compromise" despite every sinew in their psyche pulling against it. Then again that was always going to happen. To pretend it wasn't, in the first instance, was grandstanding to the likes of those on this thread who would seemingly not lift a finger to help prevent people drown - which, of course, until recently was the explicitly stated government policy on this matter.

Our government disgusts me but at least I can sleep at night knowing I didn't vote for the callous, inept, self-serving bastards.

Elias wrote:

Freathy wrote:

VillageGreen wrote:

And the rumours still persist that a number of those young men are daesh fighters that want to cause harm to European cities. What an ideal way to start that by pretending to be a refugee or persecuted migrant and gain admission to whatever European country.

An extremely frightening thought, if those rumours are true.[/quot

I'd say it's an aboslute certainty that 100s if not 1000s of islamic state fighters have arrived as 'refugees' from Syria and Libya and have already been given free passage to move around europe.  It's not a case of if major terrorist attrocities will happen but when.

All they need is seven machine guns one man for each exit......something to think about on your next visit to the mall.

How long before armed response arrive ? 20,30,40 mins ?

If it happened in Tavvy it could be days, the other day I found a wallet by the side of the road, no cash but Amex, driving licence ect, couldn't raise the owner by any means myself so handed the wallet into ob. Went to the new Tavvy police st. to find a notice outside saying its appointment only. Went to front door, locked, picked up the phone by front door which was answered by Middlemoor in Exeter! They rang the Tavvy police station for me and sent someone (a lady) down to deal with me. I asked if they built the nice big shiny station just for her? (this station is literally six times the size of the old one).
Anyway dash, is, so called is, bla de bla de bla won't get defeated by stronging up the borders, who do you stop coming in? All Arabs? All Muslims? All the Arab Muslims that look dodgy? As already said there could be thousands already here. The only way this and any other dispute, war ect ends is by dialogue. We shot, hanged and beat the IRA and the Irish in general for 800 years or so but didn't end the conflict until we sat down and agreed a deal.

At last we agree on something!

Daesh as an army could easily enough be obliterated if the will was there to obliterate it. So could Assad. So could any faction once any of USA/Russia/China decided to do obliterate it. They'd be gone in no time.

But would that work? An army can be crushed but an idea? No. Impossible. Just look at how hard we tried to destroy the IRA or Indian independence, how hard South Africa fought for apartheid, the levels of despotism in the Soviet Block... They all fell.

God knows how to reason with nutters like Daesh though. I wonder how many of them are real psychoes and how many are simply tagging along because if they don't then they're done for?

I think we agree on a lot of things Franny, my one and only problem is where are we going to house, school and give medical treatment to the refugees, asylum seekers, migrants if you how open the borders? Bear in mind that Sherford and the new one at Exeter are miles behind what we already need in affordable housing (if that's what they are FFS!) and they took what twenty years of planning and Sherford is just poised to start now, that's 4000 odd houses that we badly need ourselves. If we aren't careful we have sangat style camps here whilst we scratch our heads and wonder what to do these people. Should we put them at the head of the council lists, ahead of some of our homeless people? Its not that I don't care, I do more than most but you have to be practical.