Mass Net Immigration.....Again.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

For heavens sake!

Britain is not sinking under the weight of refugees.

That's just complete nonsense.

I'd link to some facts but you'd just rubbish them if I did so get clicking, actually check out some real, reliable accurate data somewhere of your own choosing, then come back and we'll talk.

Yada yada yada....

I didn't say Britain. I said Europe.

I notice you ducked my two questions and went after my 'summery'. You aren't dealing in facts - which is why you don't link to them - you're dealing in your own beliefs, which are wrong and bound by your socialist ideals.

Not that I'm a great fan, but let's go to the BBC

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

BBC wrote:

"Last month, EU member states agreed to take in 32,000 asylum seekers arriving in Italy and Greece over the next two years - fewer than the 40,000 target".

"In the past week alone, 21,000 migrants have arrived in Greece, according to the UN".

Bit of a disparity there....

...and that's just part of the story. It is a humanitarian crisis of probably unseen magnitude.

And this is just the beginning...

Wake up and smell the coffee, SFD!

Crisis? What Crisis?

The idea that anyone comes to this country to live on benefits is bollocks. People come to the UK (legally or illegally) to work because our economy is one of the strongest in the world. Obviously, most of those that work illegally don't pay tax, but its nothing compared to the losses at the other end of the tax system.

The government (red and blue) have been desperate to attract overseas students for years. Not only is the visa system a cash cow (despite being an area of abuse), the boost to the University's and related economies has been massive. It will only get bigger.

As SFD says, the world is such an open place that the notion of "borders" seems incredibly archaic. In Africa they still don't understand our concept of borders that are nice and straight - they much prefer the traditional life that has served them peacefully for centuries.

The question I always ask people who like to complain about all these "immigrants" coming to the UK is "how many times have you been negatively effected by them - you know, like real shit happening to you - not stuff you have read in the Daily Mail?" And then compare that to all the great stuff that we benefit from by having migration.

Dick Trickle wrote:

I politely suggest that it shouldn't secure its borders. These people are fleeing terror we would have no concept of. We should take our fair share. It is morally right to do so.

Absolutely right.

There are 4.1 million refugees fleeing Syria in fear for their lives.

The UK has accepted 216, less than a plane full.

Shameful.

The old Tories are having a bit of a diilemma here, on one hand they want to keep the low wage economy they have created (come on down all manual workers from eastern EU) on the other they don't want to pay out out dividends or profits via the welfare state. What are they gonna do?
My youngest applied for two pretty decent jobs recently and has been offered both of them, his wages after three years training should rise to £40-£50k company car, bonus ect, ect, yesterday he recieved a reply from Morrisons saying they weren't able to offer him a job (which he applied for in May lol) because the intake of applicants this year has been of an unusually high standard. It's harder to get a crap job than a decent one it seems. Feck all to do with immigration though is it?
That's my dilemma with the immigration problem the two tier society that it creates, I suppose one answer to would to have a stronger caste system so that we protect our decent standard of living and have all the smelly jobs done for us by the Gujarati.
As for pulling down the borders (maybe a bridge from Calais?) how many people would choose Britain as their country of choice? About another fifty million would be my guess. There is a massive exodus in Africa, last time I was travelling there you notice the steady trickle of humanity moving north, do we have room for them all? Not without doubling the size of every town and city in the country.
I'm more charitable than your average man but practically I don't think we have the resources or room for every person that wants to live here, as for weeding out the economic from the refugees, not easy if not impossible.
As for the people saying that they don't know any migrants on benefits go and visit my mate who owns two houses full of them down near the Hoe, he quite often gets them back after they have failed the process to stay using a different name, from a different country to boot.
Immigration is a problem and it will get bigger.

We seem happy enough to accept foreign students.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

70 people in a truck that size, images of 17th/18th cetury slave ships spring to mind, packed in like sardines in a tin, what a horrific way to die.

Three Hungarians have been arrested for dumping the lorry.

I (and my wife) have a 4 year temporary residence permit for South Africa. To be granted these we needed to produce medical certificates, including chest x-rays, police clearance certificates from the UK, unabridged birth and marriage certificates and, most importantly both of us had to prove liquid assets of sixty thousand pounds each to support ourselves for the 4 year period. I'm hoping to be granted permanent residency this year but the Dept of Home Affairs has already spent 12 months assessing my application so I'm not holding my breath, which means going through the same process again in 2018 to renew our temporary permits.

My son has just been successful in getting a sponsored job in Oz, likewise a 4 year visa. He had to jump through several hoops and his Australian girlfriend who works in HR was still amazed that he made it.

Immigration may well be a two way street but the conditions attached are not necessarily equal.

I don't think liberal democratic Europe and Britain will be taking any lessons whatsoever out of the "Immigration for Dummies" book of South Africa, the home of apartheid. Risible.

Sir John Hawkins wrote:

Rickler wrote:

The lifeboat that is Europe is in danger of sinking under the weight of refugees.  Britain being an island, should be able to 'secure' its borders more easily, however, I don't think there is the will to do it?

The only lifeboat I've ever known on here is Mastpoint.
Where would the good old US of A be without it's 300 million immigrants.
Would you have been happy if you were not welcomed as an immigrant to the States. In fact, why were you so favourably treated and why wouldn't you afford that chance to anyone else?
That's not an aggressive question Ricks, I like much of your drift, I just don't get this one way migration mind set where one form of mass migration is fine, and one isn't ? What did you have to offer that other Mexican's didn't ?

Rugged good looks and a quick wit..?

I came here whilst working for an American company in England (Farah). One thing led to another and I ended up marrying. Then it was all over...

Planned and controlled immigration is probably necessary to any modern nations economy. The Tsunami of refugees migrating from the world troubled spots is another thing altogether. It could turn into a problem far larger than the blows delivered by some of the worlds largest natural disasters!

Germany is accepting 800,000 for this year!!! 21,000 turned up in Hungary yesterday alone! How
long is that sustainable?

SFD says no problem. Yeah, right...

On a serious note... Big Congratulations on making the Honours List!

Well done!

Thank you Ricks, it's been a long time coming. I owe a few favours because of it, but should now be  able to influence a few tax wheezes and TTIF honey pot NHS contracts for a few friends.


"Planned and controlled immigration is probably necessary to any modern nation's economy"............

Well, if that's your logic, how come you don't think a nation's economy should be planned and controlled as in the old socialist models ? How come the unfettered free market only applies to business, and capital, but not labour ?
Capital flight can cause far more damage than labour and war migration, and we all know how much capital/manufacturing has flown to China/overseas over the last few years. Not a lot of control there, is there ? The left has been complaining about these globalised corporate pirates for years and years.
Capital and labour have had an abusive, but symbiotic relationship up until now, but technology and globalisation is skewing everything.
BRICS have had labour, so capital followed there. The UK still has far too much capital in and around the South East, so it attracts labour. It's egg and chips, they go together. Capital has to be fed, and so does labour. People aren't going to just sit where they are and starve, or be killed by some marauding males..

Rickler wrote:

Sir John Hawkins wrote:

Rickler wrote:

The lifeboat that is Europe is in danger of sinking under the weight of refugees.  Britain being an island, should be able to 'secure' its borders more easily, however, I don't think there is the will to do it?

The only lifeboat I've ever known on here is Mastpoint.
Where would the good old US of A be without it's 300 million immigrants.
Would you have been happy if you were not welcomed as an immigrant to the States. In fact, why were you so favourably treated and why wouldn't you afford that chance to anyone else?
That's not an aggressive question Ricks, I like much of your drift, I just don't get this one way migration mind set where one form of mass migration is fine, and one isn't ? What did you have to offer that other Mexican's didn't ?

Rugged good looks and a quick wit..?

I came here whilst working for an American company in England (Farah).  One thing led to another and I ended up marrying.  Then it was all over...

Planned and controlled immigration is probably necessary to any modern nations economy.  The Tsunami of refugees migrating from the world troubled spots is another thing altogether.  It could turn into a problem far larger than the blows delivered by some of the worlds largest natural disasters!

Germany is accepting 800,000 for this year!!!  21,000 turned up in Hungary yesterday alone!  How
long is that sustainable?

SFD says no problem.  Yeah, right...

On a serious note...  Big Congratulations on making the Honours List!

Well done!

There's nowhere that you'll find me saying that I don't think there is a problem

As for the "Tsunami of refugees" I can't help but wonder what you would do if you were them? Just stay put, hunker down and hope the ammunition, tinned food and bottled water outlasts the problems, I suppose. I suspect that similar decisions have been made by many but many have decided that the game is up and it is time to clear off and I don't blame them one bit.

Do they create a problem? Of course they damned well do but they don't create it here. Where do they go? Once they can get past Greece and Itay, where most of them seem to be arriving, they're off mostly to Germany and Sweden. Not here.

Do I know the scale of the problem? Yes. Here's the most reliable figures I can find.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Is it a huge problem for the UK? No. As shown by the figures above.

Can you imagine seeing this in an English football stadium?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

The Germans are putting us to shame on this one.

As are the Swedes.

And just about every other European nation.

Proud to be British? No. Not when we behave as we have on this issue.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

Can you imagine seeing this in an English football stadium?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

The Germans are putting us to shame on this one.

As are the Swedes.

And just about every other European nation.

Proud to be British? No. Not when we behave as we have on this issue.

Mmmmmm, not sure that the old Chermans are united behind that cause Franny. The whole European response is a feckin joke in as much as there is no response. The biggest gripe that I have is that the people who caused most of this shite by bombing Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan are still defending their actions and even talking about going in against is on the ground.
Anyway whilst I have every sympathy with the migrants just where are we going to house and school all these people? Still not heard an answer to that one.

'Tis a problem to be sure but as I have said before why not aim any opprobrium caused by lack of infra-structure at governments who have simply not provided enough of it over the last few decades?

There's two sides to supply and demand problems, you know, but you only seem to identify one.

If there was the political will to sort it out then it would be sorted pronto but there isn't because it suits them to have people like you doing their work for them.

This is all a direct result of the thinking that insists that infra-structure systems have no slack, that efficiency is king and that we need to do more with less. There's nothing wrong with a little inefficiency; it provides flexibility when needed.

FFS.

This isn't about benefits, borders, housing,schools or anything else like it. It is about being a decent, compassionate, caring human being. People are fleeing awful situations in awful countries caused in no small part in many cases by ourselves as a nation.

Except they aren't just fleeing. They are often being trafficked in horrendous conditions that sees them exploited, beaten and terrorised in various ways as they go. They are drowning in their thousands as they attempt to cross the Mediterranean and being suffocated in lorries once they arrive.

There's many levels to this but right now, right here it is a humanitarian disaster caused by the biggest exodus of people since WW2.

We have a duty as a country under international law to house refugees, there is a duty under maritime law (or maybe just the unwritten "code of the sea") that every effort possible is made so that vessels in distress are rescued. We have a legal and moral duty to do something. There's not even a case to argue here. It is black and white.

This isn't about where they might live or go to school, for starters at least, but whether they live or not at all. Being worried about where they might live misses the point so heroically, so badly, so callously that I can't even begin to find the words to describe my horror at the sentiment.

How many more children need to be drowned before you'll change your opinion on this? Isn't one one too many?

Here's a link to a petition.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Be warned that the link contains an image of a drowned kid that will never pose a problem regarding his housing or schooling.

The only "British value" we are currently showing on this issue is Nelson's telescope-to-the-blind-eye one.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

FFS.

This isn't about benefits, borders, housing,schools or anything else like it. It is about being a decent, compassionate, caring human being. People are fleeing awful situations in awful countries caused in no small part in many cases by ourselves as a nation.

Except they aren't just fleeing. They are often being trafficked in horrendous conditions that sees them exploited, beaten and terrorised in various ways as they go. They are drowning in their thousands as they attempt to cross the Mediterranean and being suffocated in lorries once they arrive.

There's many levels to this but right now, right here it is a humanitarian disaster caused by the biggest exodus of people since WW2.

We have a duty as a country under international law to house refugees, there is a duty under maritime law (or maybe just the unwritten "code of the sea") that every effort possible is made so that vessels in distress are rescued. We have a legal and moral duty to do something. There's not even a case to argue here. It is black and white.

This isn't about where they might live or go to school, for starters at least, but whether they live or not at all. Being worried about where they might live misses the point so heroically, so badly, so callously that I can't even begin to find the words to describe my horror at the sentiment.

How many more children need to be drowned before you'll change your opinion on this? Isn't one one too many?

Here's a link to a petition.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Be warned that the link contains an image of a drowned kid that will never pose a problem regarding his housing or schooling.

The only "British value" we are currently showing on this issue is Nelson's telescope-to-the-blind-eye one.

Three cheers for Nelson! Frank, while I admire your apparent compassion and agree with some of what you say I can't help but think you are extremely naive on certain subjects. No, not all want to come here for guaranteed benefits and housing but a sizeable portion do foreshore, and who can blame them, it's human nature to want something for nothing. I could go on with examples of why unfettered immigration will end up causing massive problems in this country but tbh I just can't be bothered, you only ever seem to see anything from your pov, do you ever concede that other people may well be right even if you happen to disagree with them? We are but a small island, there has to be a limit imo.

All it would take to play our part is for every county in the UK to house 10 Syrian families each. It wouldn't even come close the the 800k people that Germany will accept this year but it is a start.

Good to see that the British media are beginning to headline with the refugee crisis. The Evening Standard's front page today tells an horrific story of overcrowding, panic, anger, fury, children hungry & thirsty with no food and limited water, no air-con so it was smelly. Sounds absolutely horrific and frightening......

However this migrant crisis was merely the 13 hour delay of the Eurostar because refugees happened to be risking their lives because walking on a live train line was their least dangerous option.

Similar to the Daily Mail article recently about British holidaymakers having their holiday ruined by refugees who had just braved 100 mile of dangerous waters in a dinghy.

Our press and the panic/fear they sow is shameful.

Les Miserable wrote:

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

FFS.

This isn't about benefits, borders, housing,schools or anything else like it. It is about being a decent, compassionate, caring human being. People are fleeing awful situations in awful countries caused in no small part in many cases by ourselves as a nation.

Except they aren't just fleeing. They are often being trafficked in horrendous conditions that sees them exploited, beaten and terrorised in various ways as they go. They are drowning in their thousands as they attempt to cross the Mediterranean and being suffocated in lorries once they arrive.

There's many levels to this but right now, right here it is a humanitarian disaster caused by the biggest exodus of people since WW2.

We have a duty as a country under international law to house refugees, there is a duty under maritime law (or maybe just the unwritten "code of the sea") that every effort possible is made so that vessels in distress are rescued. We have a legal and moral duty to do something. There's not even a case to argue here. It is black and white.

This isn't about where they might live or go to school, for starters at least, but whether they live or not at all. Being worried about where they might live misses the point so heroically, so badly, so callously that I can't even begin to find the words to describe my horror at the sentiment.

How many more children need to be drowned before you'll change your opinion on this? Isn't one one too many?

Here's a link to a petition.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Be warned that the link contains an image of a drowned kid that will never pose a problem regarding his housing or schooling.

The only "British value" we are currently showing on this issue is Nelson's telescope-to-the-blind-eye one.

Three cheers for Nelson!  Frank, while I admire your apparent compassion and agree with some of what you say I can't help but think you are extremely naive on certain subjects. No, not all want to come here for guaranteed benefits and housing but a sizeable portion do foreshore, and who can blame them, it's human nature to want something for nothing. I could go on with examples of why unfettered immigration will end up causing massive problems in this country but tbh I just can't be bothered, you only ever seem to see anything from your pov, do you ever concede that other people may well be right even if you happen to disagree with them? We are but a small island, there has to be a limit imo.

I disagree with this Les. I think the proportion who come here to claim benefits is minuscule. Only a moron would travel all the way to the UK to claim benefits when the opportunity to work here and earn far more is far greater.

The asylum system in the UK has been abused for decades, but what we are seeing now in Europe is a humanitarian disaster and is nothing compared to what we have seen before.

Unfortunately there is a world of difference between 'doing the right thing' in terms of humanitarianism, and then having to deal with the reality of the tens of millions that currently live in war zones in the Middle East and Africa that would love to move to Britain, given an open door policy.

Frank Bullitt wrote:

Les Miserable wrote:

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

FFS.

This isn't about benefits, borders, housing,schools or anything else like it. It is about being a decent, compassionate, caring human being. People are fleeing awful situations in awful countries caused in no small part in many cases by ourselves as a nation.

Except they aren't just fleeing. They are often being trafficked in horrendous conditions that sees them exploited, beaten and terrorised in various ways as they go. They are drowning in their thousands as they attempt to cross the Mediterranean and being suffocated in lorries once they arrive.

There's many levels to this but right now, right here it is a humanitarian disaster caused by the biggest exodus of people since WW2.

We have a duty as a country under international law to house refugees, there is a duty under maritime law (or maybe just the unwritten "code of the sea") that every effort possible is made so that vessels in distress are rescued. We have a legal and moral duty to do something. There's not even a case to argue here. It is black and white.

This isn't about where they might live or go to school, for starters at least, but whether they live or not at all. Being worried about where they might live misses the point so heroically, so badly, so callously that I can't even begin to find the words to describe my horror at the sentiment.

How many more children need to be drowned before you'll change your opinion on this? Isn't one one too many?

Here's a link to a petition.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Be warned that the link contains an image of a drowned kid that will never pose a problem regarding his housing or schooling.

The only "British value" we are currently showing on this issue is Nelson's telescope-to-the-blind-eye one.

Three cheers for Nelson!  Frank, while I admire your apparent compassion and agree with some of what you say I can't help but think you are extremely naive on certain subjects. No, not all want to come here for guaranteed benefits and housing but a sizeable portion do foreshore, and who can blame them, it's human nature to want something for nothing. I could go on with examples of why unfettered immigration will end up causing massive problems in this country but tbh I just can't be bothered, you only ever seem to see anything from your pov, do you ever concede that other people may well be right even if you happen to disagree with them? We are but a small island, there has to be a limit imo.

I disagree with this Les. I think the proportion who come here to claim benefits is minuscule. Only a moron would travel all the way to the UK to claim benefits when the opportunity to work here and earn far more is far greater.

The asylum system in the UK has been abused for decades, but what we are seeing now in Europe is a humanitarian disaster and is nothing compared to what we have seen before.

No problem with that at all Frank, disagreeing is what it's all about, espousing with such certainty that what you say is absolute fact tends to rile me a touch, I know it shouldn't, I'm working on it!

Yes, well done the modern Germany, but then they are streets ahead of us little Ingerlanders in so many ways. The big worry of course, is the old right wing Nazi thing reappearing, taking over germany, and taking the old Austro/Hungarian eastern Europe with it. We'll be back to the 1930s before we know it. Then who knows, Russia might have an understanding with the Germanic block and history repeats itself. Hungary are today clearly showing their historic solidarity with Germany. It's all going back to the old borders, the old empirical divisions. It's all coming together nicely.

And, of course, mass wall to wall coverage here of the Hungarian train station involving a 1000 refugees, and yet 250,000 ! Peoples' assembly marched through London and demonstratedd at Mid Summer, and not a dicky bird from the bosses' press. They now are on orders not to report this sort of activity, almost treating peaceful demonstration as football violence in the censorship stakes.  

Anyhoooo, another example of bad "migration" that is causing this country problems. That Dyson guy, you know Mr England, and at first, what was to dislike about the quintessential quirky English boffin who kicked Hoover into touch. He got rid of the bags, but charged an absolute fortune for his machines, that aren't even near a Henry. And when push came to shove, and globalised corporate piracy became the rage, he upped sticks and migrated all his capital and jobs to China or wherever. Thanks a bunch, great.  Of course, no one from the right is moaning about how many jobs that little wheeze cost "us". And yet, when asked about why he left, he had the cheek to say he left because the English taxpayer wouldn't subsidise him anymore through local government giveaways of millions ! Do all these so called efficient industrialists need subsidising by the taxpayer ?. These Western global pirates need to be brought to order, it can't keep going on like it is. It's like the wild west with no planned economy. Looks like people are beginning to wake up to the great Capital swindle now, and over the pond as well with Berni Saunders about to turf out the Blairite Clinton.

I can see you are a polar opposite to myself Les, but that's life and at least it's a pleasure to talk politely and calmly about the issue rather than the foul mouthed nasty crap from a few I could mention.

Still,  that was a long one, and my last. Now I am a Knightly gentleman, I am moving tomorrow into my new estate that HRH kindly sequestrated for all my efforts on the high seas, and all the dosh I put into her (cough) (cough). Trouble is there's no proper broadband where I'm headed, so I'm back to ye olde mobile. Conversing on ATD on a mobile is frustrating to say the least. Spelling and grammar, quotes and mute points go out the window. I just couldn't compete.  So perhaps I'll do the one word/one line thing from now on, you know, what moderators do.  Sort of fits my new status.

Sir John Hawkins wrote:

Yes, well done the modern Germany, but then they are streets ahead of us little Ingerlanders in so many ways. The big worry of course, is the old right wing Nazi thing reappearing, taking over germany, and taking the old Austro/Hungarian eastern Europe with it. We'll be back to the 1930s before we know it. Then who knows, Russia might have an understanding with the Germanic block and history repeats itself. Hungary are today clearly showing their historic solidarity with Germany. It's all going back to the old borders, the old empirical divisions. It's all coming together nicely.

And, of course, mass wall to wall coverage here of the Hungarian train station involving a 1000 refugees, and yet 250,000 ! Peoples' assembly marched through London and demonstratedd at Mid Summer, and not a dicky bird from the bosses' press. They now are on orders not to report this sort of activity, almost treating peaceful demonstration as football violence in the censorship stakes.  

Anyhoooo, another example of bad "migration" that is causing this country problems. That Dyson guy, you know Mr England, and at first, what was to dislike about the quintessential quirky English boffin who kicked Hoover into touch. He got rid of the bags, but charged an absolute fortune for his machines, that aren't even near a Henry. And when push came to shove, and globalised corporate piracy became the rage, he upped sticks and migrated all his capital and jobs to China or wherever. Thanks a bunch, great.  Of course, no one from the right is moaning about how many jobs that little wheeze cost "us". And yet, when asked about why he left, he had the cheek to say he left because the English taxpayer wouldn't subsidise him anymore through local government giveaways of millions ! Do all these so called efficient industrialists need subsidising by the taxpayer ?. These Western global pirates need to be brought to order, it can't keep going on like it is. It's like the wild west with no planned economy. Looks like people are beginning to wake up to the great Capital swindle now, and over the pond as well with Berni Saunders about to turf out the Blairite Clinton.

I can see you are a polar opposite to myself Les, but that's life and at least it's a pleasure to talk politely and calmly about the issue rather than the foul mouthed nasty crap from a few I could mention.

Still,  that was a long one, and my last. Now I am a Knightly gentleman, I am moving tomorrow into my new estate that HRH kindly sequestrated for all my efforts on the high seas, and all the dosh I put into her (cough) (cough). Trouble is there's no proper broadband where I'm headed, so I'm back to ye olde mobile. Conversing on ATD on a mobile is frustrating to say the least. Spelling and grammar, quotes and mute points go out the window. I just couldn't compete.  So perhaps I'll do the one word/one line thing from now on, you know, what moderators do.  Sort of fits my new status.

Hope you have a smooth move and a speedy return to ATD.