The Richard Burton V Richard Blight grudge match showdown originally posted in the wrong forum by spolly

knecht wrote:

X Isle wrote:

......
I believed that once, the gates off the back of the greatest period of sustained upward momentum in our 128 year history demonstrated we don't have nearly the amount of potential I thought we did. Any pragmatist would tell you the same. 19-20K will be sufficient for Argyle's fickle league 2-championship fanbase.

Should the highly unlikely happen and we hit the premiership the unthinkable will follow sure as night follows day, we'd move to a new stadium, one we'd own ourselves. Enough clubs have left their spiritual homes now and got over it. We just need the justification, which we don't have right now, and won't, possibly for decades.

Even if that's right, it's a pity that the proposals will limit us to maybe 17,500 or less.

Sadly, I agree with your last para. Though, to link back to the ongoing issue, we maybe wouldn't have to move if the current proposals were designed for adequate expansion in mind.

If we got in quickly, there's a gert big empty field out at Derriford that could do the job. It would be easier for me to get to as well.

Fair one, my bad. Same thing applies though, we never averaged close to 17,500 in the very best of times.

Czarcasm wrote:

Iggy wrote:

So another cry of bullying comes to nothing.   

It did amuse me when muted that Spolly had 'found his ATD feet'.   

Finding PAFC Forums all of a sudden, and giving forthright views when you have no idea of the Forum history over the road for the last 15 years, and here for the last 3, can make an opinion markedly less than 'considered'.

As for Smiffy, I usually picture a scene of being in a pub with him spouting his usual sanctimonious crap and wondering how many minutes he'd last before being put on his arse. Single figures I recks, foreshore.

Be fair he missed the game but was cheered up by the line up !!!

Reads the forums but aware of 'history' ? Yeah right !

X Isle wrote:

knecht wrote:

X Isle wrote:

......
I believed that once, the gates off the back of the greatest period of sustained upward momentum in our 128 year history demonstrated we don't have nearly the amount of potential I thought we did. Any pragmatist would tell you the same. 19-20K will be sufficient for Argyle's fickle league 2-championship fanbase.

Should the highly unlikely happen and we hit the premiership the unthinkable will follow sure as night follows day, we'd move to a new stadium, one we'd own ourselves. Enough clubs have left their spiritual homes now and got over it. We just need the justification, which we don't have right now, and won't, possibly for decades.

Even if that's right, it's a pity that the proposals will limit us to maybe 17,500 or less.




Sadly, I agree with your last para. Though, to link back to the ongoing issue, we maybe wouldn't have to move if the current proposals were designed for adequate expansion in mind.

If we got in quickly, there's a gert big empty field out at Derriford that could do the job. It would be easier for me to get to as well.

Fair one, my bad. Same thing applies though, we never averaged close to 17,500 in the very best of times.

Brent out x isle !

I will admit here to only reading the last few posts - someone may have covered this thought already.

If we were to reach the Premiership (unthinkable as was said above) we would have to be a steady mid-table plus side to even consider moving to a new stadium.

These things do not happen overnight, I would think that we would have to survive at least into season 3 before a move would be possible given the time required to find a site, draw up plans, raise finance (not so easy as we would be odds on favourites for relegation every season), build the thing and then finally move in.

There would also always be the worry that a club like ours could not sustain a new(ish) 30-35K stadium should we be relegated back out of the Prem. Attendances would drop back making that unsustainable in the long term. I also don't think we would be able to survive in the Prem on 17.5k a week even with the TV money so chances of staying there for long enough to build something would be very small.

I would pity any Chairman trying to balance the risk/reward of a new stadium if we were near the top of the Championship or even promoted to the Prem!

Dougie wrote:

The balloon payment shouldn't be a problem

Quote :

The final or balloon payment is a concern but it's quite possible that a payment or grant is triggered by one or more of the projects in the HHP development being completed and this money used to cover the balloon payment.

Now the above statement might be pure supposition and have no basis in fact but can you imagine public money being used to fund a private debt.  Any socialist worth he salt would be protesting at the doors of the company involved should it happen.

Webb???

Jon L wrote:

I will admit here to only reading the last few posts - someone may have covered this thought already.

If we were to reach the Premiership (unthinkable as was said above) we would have to be a steady mid-table plus side to even consider moving to a new stadium.

These things do not happen overnight, I would think that we would have to survive at least into season 3 before a move would be possible given the time required to find a site, draw up plans, raise finance (not so easy as we would be odds on favourites for relegation every season), build the thing and then finally move in.

There would also always be the worry that a club like ours could not sustain a new(ish) 30-35K stadium should we be relegated back out of the Prem.  Attendances would drop back making that unsustainable in the long term.  I also don't think we would be able to survive in the Prem on 17.5k a week even with the TV money so chances of staying there for long enough to build something would be very small.

I would pity any Chairman trying to balance the risk/reward of a new stadium if we were near the top of the Championship or even promoted to the Prem!

 

Absolutely This!

Just like we will expand the ground when the time is right, there will never be a right time if the feckin ground is full should we be in or prem bound, duh.

Tack onto this those who say we are building for next years run at the play-offs or promotion, ..... .......poppycock.... We will prolly be starting from scratch with another motley crew of leftovers that no other club wants.
It don't work like that in this Brent fantasyland created by the pisspoti mafia, beware the ides of Northampton.

Argyle will never reach the top flight

I always thought I would see Argyle playing in the top-flight in my lifetime. Sadly, I do not any more.

I have consigned myself to the fact that we are now a mere shadow of what I perceived and always dreamed, to be a budding 'potential' top tier team in the making due to a few simple reasons.

The first being an either extremely naive or extremely ill informed or extremely cunning, money making snake as an owner of PAFC.

Couple that with the now perennial struggling, and very ordinary and average at best, lower league team who has a run-of-the-mill manager - all confirms, sadly that I'm going to my grave supporting (ish) this shower as league 2ers.

Of course - super-fans who have gotten far too cozy, given an exclusive funny hat to wear, loved in, sucked-in and involved in the day-today running of a professional (and I use 'professional' in the loosest of terms) football club, has frankly and sadly all but finished off my interest and love for my team.

All a recipe for disaster? Well, look at the last 5 years.

X Isle wrote:

Fair one, my bad. Same thing applies though, we never averaged close to 17,500 in the very best of times.

You are on a wind-up here, aren't you?

"We only need 17500 capacity because we only averaged 17500". Have I got that right?

You are aware that an average is a measure of central tendency and as such there is a higher figure around half of the time (depending on type of avergae used)?

And that a ceiling of 20000 means that the highest crowd recorded isn't actually representative of the number of people who wanted to go.

And that most of the empty seats were in the away end and used as a segregation area.

Because those factual certainties insist that your hypothesis must be rejected.

If the board had hung onto Ollie, SEB, Norris, Buzacky, Noone, Barnes, and Mackie, (just to name a few) then our ground would have sold out for every game. Imagine hanging onto them and adding someone like Adams to the mix? Crowds dropped off because the popular manager left with most of the team that were able to play football. I have seen sellout crowds at HP withing the last fifteen years, QPR being a notable one. Why is it that some people want to pretend that 17500 is our maximum POSSIBLE crowd, very strange. A 25k stadium would be filled every game if we were winning games and progressing up the leagues. A top CCC side would easy sell 25k seats. 25k fans would also give you a massive advantage over other teams that only attracted say 17500.
Ps I mentioned that Brent would strangle HP so that he could move us to a brand new stadium and I was laughed off the farm!

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

X Isle wrote:

Fair one, my bad. Same thing applies though, we never averaged close to 17,500 in the very best of times.

You are on a wind-up here, aren't you?

"We only need 17500 capacity because we only averaged 17500". Have I got that right?

You are aware that an average is a measure of central tendency and as such there is a higher figure around half of the time (depending on type of avergae used)?

And that a ceiling of 20000 means that the highest crowd recorded isn't actually representative of the number of people who wanted to go.

And that most of the empty seats were in the away end and used as a segregation area.

Because those factual certainties insist that your hypothesis must be rejected.

I couldn't be bothered Sir Frank. The issues around average gates have been gone over so often it just seemed a waste of energy to go over them again (even without your mathematical genius   ). I guess every time the mantra of 'look at what we averaged last time' is trotted out it does need challenging otherwise it becomes 'fact' but it does get tedious.

knecht wrote:

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

X Isle wrote:

Fair one, my bad. Same thing applies though, we never averaged close to 17,500 in the very best of times.

You are on a wind-up here, aren't you?

"We only need 17500 capacity because we only averaged 17500". Have I got that right?

You are aware that an average is a measure of central tendency and as such there is a higher figure around half of the time (depending on type of avergae used)?

And that a ceiling of 20000 means that the highest crowd recorded isn't actually representative of the number of people who wanted to go.

And that most of the empty seats were in the away end and used as a segregation area.

Because those factual certainties insist that your hypothesis must be rejected.

I couldn't be bothered Sir Frank. The issues around average gates have been gone over so often it just seemed a waste of energy to go over them again (even without your mathematical genius   ). I guess every time the mantra of 'look at what we averaged last time' is trotted out it does need challenging otherwise it becomes 'fact' but it does get tedious.

There's also the argument regarding our c. 2000 person core average support growth from the last time we were in our current position.

And Jon L neatly puts how it's not just as simple as moving into a new stadium when demand arrives. The only way I can see it working is for the next however many years Argyle to stabilise financially and flitter around League One and the Championship. Then (when comfortable in League One) draw up real plans to move into a new stadium and sell Home Park to ASDA - similarly to what Bristol Rovers are doing (although they're striving for Championship from League Two).

However, if, say in 10 years time, we were to move into a fancy new stadia that can meet Argyle's needs and offer the fan base some true ambition, then isn't the £10m spent on the new stand going a bit to waste?

You can't sell Home Park to Asda. Not even Brent's legal team can convince anyone that a supermarket is a leisure activity.....mind you at least Supermarket Sweep made people burn more energy than sitting watching a film so maybe anything's possible.

I hate out of town football grounds, detest them.

I guess the majority do hate out of town grounds but in this day and age I doubt there are any towns in the country with 'unused' space for a football ground close to the centre.

knecht wrote:

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

X Isle wrote:

Fair one, my bad. Same thing applies though, we never averaged close to 17,500 in the very best of times.

You are on a wind-up here, aren't you?

"We only need 17500 capacity because we only averaged 17500". Have I got that right?

You are aware that an average is a measure of central tendency and as such there is a higher figure around half of the time (depending on type of avergae used)?

And that a ceiling of 20000 means that the highest crowd recorded isn't actually representative of the number of people who wanted to go.

And that most of the empty seats were in the away end and used as a segregation area.

Because those factual certainties insist that your hypothesis must be rejected.

I couldn't be bothered Sir Frank. The issues around average gates have been gone over so often it just seemed a waste of energy to go over them again (even without your mathematical genius   ). I guess every time the mantra of 'look at what we averaged last time' is trotted out it does need challenging otherwise it becomes 'fact' but it does get tedious.

I'm sorry i couldn't help myself. It's errant nonsense and has to be challenged.

Just think if we'd had 17500 capacity last time we'd've averaged 15000. You could use that figure to sell a corner of the ground if we had any left to sell off. Then capacity of 15000 would only see an average of 12500 so we could close a bit more, couldn't we!

In fact why let anybody in at all? Just sell it all off.

It'll be "Darlington yadda yadda yadda" next.

And that's just as flawed and irrelevant.

Home Park is probably unique in its wonderful location. It should never be boxed in, as one day the now comatosed giant will be awakened. A developed stadium along the lines of Southampton, Swansea, Reading, Hull and Brighton, to name but a few, would provide the all important belief factor and allied to truly ambitious [for the football club] owners, would double the attendance figures even in the lower leagues.

The current set up reeks of small minded janner. Only the terminally addicted will be interested.

And it isn't so much the 17500 that is a problem, although it is, it's the extremely remote likelihood that it could ever be enlarged that is the problem.

That and roads, trees, access, traffic, safety and the fact that it doesn't even fit into land that is owned by Brent or Argyle. Oh! and the lack of funding.

How's the school application going? Did it get submitted in time this time?

How's the car park contract going?

Does the Odeon still want an Imax now there's going to be one in Bretonside?

It's bad for Argyle, bad for the park and bad for the city. The only party to benefit from it will be Brent/Akkeron if it ever goes ahead but I don't think it will because there is so, so much so very and fundamentally wrong with Brent's HHP plan that it was always likely to collapse due to its own inherent crapness and, I think, it already has and that once Brent develops a face-saving exit strategy we'll all know it for sure.

And then we need to start working on a viable, sensible plan good for the club, the park and the city because the one we have is selling us down the river..

That's the moment the educated w@nkers must step forward to stop the local yeomanry from continuing their small minded Avivafest. They don't possess the style or the imagination to be anything other than bucket rattling footsoldiers, with a penchant for undeserved power and position.

This situation has been building for many years and the reluctant one was quick to recognise their usefulness to him and his plans. It will take owners of some class, vision and desire, to sideline these basically well intentioned but parochial, devious and self promoting brethren. The club will not attract the latent fanbase to HP with these people holding sway and branding everyone else as plaaaaaaaaaastics.

Agreed Tring, being hostile and unwelcoming to the 1-5 a season segment of the fanbase, then blaming them when 'only' 6.5 k attend is not only harmful to pafc, but incredibly small minded and ignorant. All visitors to Home Park should be made welcome. If not to encourage them to come again, but basic human decency.

I am unsure if this swivel eyed suspiciousness of 'outsiders' is confined to the very hardcore of PAFC superfans, or a regional trait. I have rarely if ever encountered this mindset to this degree elsewhere.

We all follow Argyle to varying degrees of fanaticism, where Argyle figures in an individuals life and to what level of importance is completely their perogative.

X Isle wrote:

Fair one, my bad. Same thing applies though, we never averaged close to 17,500 in the very best of times.

What is it with you that can't understand the difference between average attendances and individual games that make up those averages.
Argyle have just doubled their season's average for a local derby on a miserable Tuesday evening when still not in contention in League 2.

One thing a lot of people seem not to think about. IF Argyle ever got lucky and got near the premiership, and wanted to extend the stadium, rather than the hugely prohibitive cost of a new stadium outside of the city, just who would be the local neighbour and landowner with a pension pot sitting pretty to sell his bit of land for a massive profit ? Have you thought of that Xisle ? I doubt it.
You see, if Argyle, the club, a newly enriched premier club, decided to buy Brent out, he'd make a fortune. If Argyle, the club, decided to move out of the park, Brent would make a fortune for a change of use that the council could do little about. Do you yet understand this logic of the long term property wheeze ? Is that spelled out well enough for you ?

I've a feeling it won't be WG...

At least somebody can be bothered, I really don't have the patience, well put WG.

What would Che Guevara think about it all?

Not a great deal i'd imagine, he was a rugby man.

Left winger, I believe.