Where has it gone wrong for Plymouth Argyle?

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from link wrote:: Back-to-back defeats in the Devon derby to Exeter City and at home to Wimbledon have certainly dented Plymouth Argyle's promotion aspirations, but is there a widespread overreaction to Argyle's situation from the Green Army?

Recording today's [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] podcast, listener Tom Harris asked where did it all go wrong for the Pilgrims. His question was discussed by our resident football experts Stuart James, Chris Errington and Jak Ball, who give their own interpretation of where it's gone wrong for the Pilgrims.

CHRIS ERRINGTON (Football editor and Argyle correspondent)

INDIVIDUAL mistakes towards the end of games are the reason why Argyle have dropped out of the automatic promotion places.

Thinking of the away games against Crawley Town, Accrington Stanley and Exeter City over the past couple of months, a total of eight points were dropped from winning positions by late goals.

If that was not bad enough, Argyle then lost 2-1 to AFC Wimbledon at Home Park on Saturday after an 88 th minute header from substitute Adebayo Akinfenwa.

The build-up to the goal would not have looked out of place in a Sunday morning parks match as Argyle were punished for some dreadful defending.

The tactics and team selection of manager Derek Adams have been questioned by some but, ultimately, no-one can legislate for players making individual errors.

The season is not over, though, by any means. Argyle have made it hard for themselves but promotion is still achievable if they can cut out their mistakes and start taking more of their scoring chances.

JAK BALL (Sports reporter and Argyle fan)

I DON'T believe Plymouth Argyle's season has 'gone wrong', as such. That is a very premature view when automatic promotion is still very much on the cards if the club can put together a good run.

There is no doubting, however, that the Pilgrims have gone off the boil and that began around December time when they suffered a number of injuries.

Graham Carey, Peter Hartley, Carl McHugh, Luke McCormick, Reuben Reid and Hiram Boateng all suffered injuries in fairly quick succession, and more recently Jordan Forster and Ryan Brunt have joined the list.

All of those players bar - Ryan Brunt and Reuben Reid, who suffered another injury prior to the AFC Wimbledon game - are now back from injury.

The majority of those players have looked a pale shadow of their early season selves since their return to fitness and that is where the problem has been.

Carey has struggled to live up to the expectation placed upon him following his incredible start to the season and Reid has suffered injury after injury this season.

That has definitely disrupted the team and confidence has fallen as a result. Getting players back to their best is where the key lies and if Derek Adams can do that and his team can cut out costly individual errors then automatic promotion may still be a possibility.

STUART JAMES (Host and Deputy Regional Sports Editor)

HAS IT really gone wrong for Plymouth Argyle?

To suggest that it has gone wrong when the Pilgrims are fifth and still only three points adrift of the automatic promotion places is nonsensical.

Argyle aren't in good form at the moment admittedly. But this idea that things have gone wrong off the back of two agonising and late defeats is premature, in my opinion.

Derek Adams takes his team to Portsmouth on Saturday where by 5pm, the League Two promotion picture will look a whole lot different once again. It changes by the week and with so many issues still unresolved in the fourth tier, little is likely to be confirmed before the conclusion to the campaign on Saturday, May 7.

The Green Army are getting itchy feet. These are nervy times as they have seen their promotion rivals claw back the huge lead they once held over the play-off contenders.

Coupled with the fresh memories of last season's play-off disappointment to Wycombe Wanderers and Argyle fans could perhaps be forgiven for these clear signs of panic and fear on missing out on promotion for a second year running.

Now is the time for cool heads and clear minds. This widespread panic and perception that things have gone wrong with so much still to play for is doing no one any favours, least of all the players themselves. It's just far too premature to suggest that in a typical season of ups and downs.

Interesting that the failure to strengthen in the January window because of Brent's austerity budget doesn't get a mention - which, in my view is the major cause.

Posts : 428 Join date : 2014-09-22 Location : Tavistock

When did it go wrong?? when some argyle fans thought they were Champions at the start of November

The thread i enjoy reading the most on tosspotty currently is Where will we win the league, and some sad act put SJP, fooking hell, argyle couldnt win there let alone win the league

Ive said all alone, being top of the league only matters at 5pm on the final day of the season, you were there for 5 months, and now there is a chance you might not make the POs (im not gloating or taking the piss, well not to my normal piss take style)

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PlymptonPilgrim wrote:: Interesting that the failure to strengthen in the January window because of Brent's austerity budget doesn't get a mention - which, in my view is the major cause.

its mine too but these puppets dont want to upset the reluctant one to the point he removes there perks.

Posts : 6006 Join date : 2011-12-05 Location : brent out

In one word.......brent

Posts : 886 Join date : 2013-04-02 Location : Down West

Local rag cannot be too controversial (honest) they risk getting banned from home park (again)

Posts : 6019 Join date : 2015-07-08

If you have to kill snake you cut its head off at the top..hope that answers the question

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Widespread panic ? Laughing

Get a grip man. It's a game of football, not an incursion into Plymouth air space.
So, it's the fans' fault, just like the debt "crisis" is the fault of those scroungers living on £70 a week, disabled folk getting wheelchairs so they can shop, and too many people getting ill. Yeah, ok. No wonder they can't sell papers anymore apart from the 80 years+ readership. Their language is just soooooo yesterday.

Love the "current form" quote. The plummet has been going on long enough to be known as an epoch. Something rotten in the state of Denmark, and I just have a feeling it comes from the head of state. I'm sure all will unfold if and when Argyle don't turn up at the play offs. Brent Out !!

Thanks for the copy and paste Angers.

Posts : 1201 Join date : 2011-12-23

The lack of reinforcements in January is, of course, a major factor. Recently, however, I believe that the lack of contract offers means that we have a whole squad (bar Gary Sawyer) either not knowing if they will have a wage next season or knowing they won't be playing here next season. Either way they are not be going to chance those 50/50s.

Posts : 6420 Join date : 2014-06-01 Location : Brentocabin

Where in the last five years has it gone right for Plymouth Argyle?

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That article really does concentrate on the on-pitch aspect, unsurprisingly enough. That means any criticism falls on the players and the manager rather than those with the real power in the club.

The series of injuries is mentioned, but Jak Ball doesn't/refuses to take this further and say why the injuries hit so hard and why the players had to be rushed back. The answer is, of course, the small squad. Over a 50-odd game season, there are bound to be injuries, but when they struck Argyle the club had to rush loan players in (see the goalkeeper situation for example). A large number of loan players will almost inevitably make the manager's job more difficult in terms of squad cohesion, team spirit and motivation.

So it's all very well talking about the on-field reasons for the slump and they are obviously important. However, any analysis of said slump has to involve asking why Argyle went into the season with a squad which was widely viewed as high on quality but lacking in depth and why the squad wasn't significantly reinforced in January. Adams has hinted that this was a situation he wanted changed, so it is not his choice. So the answers involve asking tricky questions about board and Brent, and may even involve asking if Brent a) wants promotion at all, b) wants automatic promotion or c) would be happy with a playoff leg full house, potential trip to Wembley and heroic failure. And it looks like hell will freeze over before the Herald starts genuinely questioning Brent.

Posts : 6006 Join date : 2011-12-05 Location : brent out

sufferedsince 68 wrote:: Where in the last five years has it gone right for Plymouth Argyle?

Just five !!!!!! ? Make that 8 years......

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Damon.Lenszner wrote:: The lack of reinforcements in January is, of course, a major factor. Recently, however, I believe that the lack of contract offers means that we have a whole squad (bar Gary Sawyer) either not knowing if they will have a wage next season or knowing they won't be playing here next season. Either way they are not be going to chance those 50/50s.

I believe Carey, Jervis and Wylde triggered there clauses not too sure about Simpson though but you are right none the less there doesnt seem to be any forward thinking beyond this season.

Posts : 6420 Join date : 2014-06-01 Location : Brentocabin

Elias wrote:

sufferedsince 68 wrote:: Where in the last five years has it gone right for Plymouth Argyle?

Just five !!!!!! ? Make that 8 years......

Thats true Elias foreshore, but why after five years of Brent and the club permanently stuck in the fourth division dont the local rag start asking questions of Brent? The manager needed proper backing in january from Jimmy he did'nt get it!! ... look whats happened since.

Posts : 6019 Join date : 2015-07-08

Angry wrote:

Damon.Lenszner wrote:: The lack of reinforcements in January is, of course, a major factor. Recently, however, I believe that the lack of contract offers means that we have a whole squad (bar Gary Sawyer) either not knowing if they will have a wage next season or knowing they won't be playing here next season. Either way they are not be going to chance those 50/50s.

I believe Carey, Jervis and Wylde triggered there clauses not too sure about Simpson though but you are right none the less there doesnt seem to be any forward thinking beyond this season.

even though there clauses have be triggered it doesnt mean they will stay kinda back up option for the player really unless somethink better turns up

Posts : 886 Join date : 2013-04-02 Location : Down West

Anti Brent thread up [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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argyl3 wrote:: Anti Brent thread up [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

pass the buckets the sick buckets jezzz

Posts : 7233 Join date : 2011-05-12

RegGreen wrote:

argyl3 wrote:: Anti Brent thread up [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

pass the buckets the sick buckets jezzz

Indded. A few words of mild criticism but mostly the usual tedious pro-brent drivel - there is no alternative, reluctant bidder, safe hands, eeeee saved us etc etc etc etc Sleep

Seriously, what the f*** is wrong with Argo fans? None of them have got any anger!

BRENT OUT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posts : 3235 Join date : 2014-09-25

Anybody that was over critical would be speedily despatched. It's a case of toe the line or do one over there.

It seems to me that 3 things more or less coincided: Boateng getting injured; the pitch falling apart; not strengthening the squad at Christmas. Add on top of that intermittent, lingering injuries to Brunt, Reid, McHugh and Carey and we were dealt blows that we could not absorb.

You can look at our results and almost to the minute see where it all started to tail off: up to Christmas - cruising; since Christmas - struggling.

Turkey. That's the obvious conclusion. Turkey is at the heart of our problems. No other explanation is possible.

Thinking on a little further, and disregarding the turkey, were we really that reliant on Boateng? On the pitch results with and without him suggest that we were but that may be a coincidence of timing. And there's nought to be done about any given player getting injured. Shit happens. It's how you deal with it that matters.

You could say the much same about the other injuries. Brunt's was the only long term one. We're not the only team to see injuries to key players. It happens all the time and with a good, balanced squad we should have been able to cope.

Except quite obviously we have not.

The pitch, then. We really are banged to rights on this one. It couldn't be clearer that maintenance did not maintain effectively and that isn't down to anybody other than ourselves.

Should Adams have recruited cheaper but more numerous players? Difficult to say without knowing what "cheap" in this context means. I do know that in the recent Exeter programme they had 4 more players listed than we did. I also think that included only 1 loanee for them whereas we had 7. So it is undeniable that our pool of players was/is small - compared to them anyway.

There's only 2 ways to interpret that: 1) Adams is paying our players a fortune; 2) Exeter's budget is far bigger than ours.

OK. Maybe there's a third: 3) a mixture of the 2.

It is pretty much impossible to assess where the fault ultimately lies but it can only rest with either Brent not giving Adams the support he needs or Adams squandering it.

And that all comes back to budget, income, turnover, debt and all the rest of it.

We keep being told that Brent has stabilised the club financially but has he? We simply don't know. We know he maxed out the money he was prepared to put in, we know he went to PCC for a loan, we know he brought Wrathall back what we don't know is whether or not the debts we came out of admin carrying have been reduced or just re-structured? To mix metaphors has Brent picked up the ball and run with it or just kicked the can down the road?

This is exactly where the "this is boring - can't we just talk about football" brigade sometimes kick in. Well no we can't. The finances underpin everything. With better financial management we could have better players and more players - then if Boateng, or whoever, gets crocked we have a replacement lined-up ready to go. Still a problem but less of one.

And nearly 5 years in under Brent how have we progressed? We used to own the ground but now the council does; we used to own the land around the ground now James Brent does; we used to be about £5m in debt but had assets to help and now we don't; we used to have a crappy out-dated grandstand and we still do except it is 5 years older and more crappy now than it was then...

Is there any indication anywhere that we are going to come through this slump and get promoted? I can't see it but you never know.

There's no progress anywhere to be seen is there? Not real, hard tangible progress. Just steady, predictable decline, at worst, and stasis, at best.

And all we hear in defence is "he saved our club" (which he ultimately might not have), "the business is sound" (which it might not be), that he'll sell (sell what? - there's nothing left to sell - even the players are nearly all out of contract!) should a decent (= outrageously brilliant for him) offer come along from people that even his supporters don't think exists.

We might best be lumbered with Brent forever because only a madman would slap the dosh he wants on the table to buy him out and we don't want to be owned by a nutter, do we?

Brent just might have engineered himself a situation where he genuinely is our only hope for progress in the future. Maybe we should all just get behind him and enjoy the ride! What else is there to do other than give up completely?

I decided I could no longer enjoy the ride long ago. Once I'd realised it's just going round in ever decreasing circles.

Still hope that one day a new driver will come along and I can get back on the bus. In the meantime, I'll continue to view from a distance, wince at the predictability of all the participants and wonder how any thinking person can garner any pleasure from direct involvement, emotionally and financially, from the ride to nowhere.

Geddon janner..............

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Sorry Frank, but it's impossible to get behind someone one strongly disagrees with. Brent was given a chance by me and was welcomed in general on this forum with reservation. Since then, his plan has become apparent. What was trailed as community and restoration is nothing more than picking on bones while keeping the body fresh. All over Devon and wider afield he has shown himself to be a vulture with a heart of a banker. And usually funded with other peoples cheap money as with the hotel thing that collapsed leaving him with a nice larder full

Posts : 7233 Join date : 2011-05-12

I jumped off this ride five years ago. Forced myself to visit HP only twice in that time. I wont be going again while brent still infects the club. I wont be missing anything i.e. watching a team of cheap substandard players and loans struggling in Div 4 and being totally outplayed week in and week out. Because under brent that's all we're going to get.

BRENT OUT NOW

argyl3 wrote:: Anti Brent thread up [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Porkster will be having fecking kittens trying to sanitize a lot of those comments

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