Brexit - Leave or Remain poll

zyph wrote:

Interesting that Cameron has been gagged for these last few days.....his mouthing off has been losing votes....and he is our PM......whatever happens he has to go.

Its amazing how after delivering an election victory no one foresaw, Cameron is now seen as a lame duck. The silly thing is that it really didn't need to be this way, he's allowed what used to be a minority viewpoint to become a mainstream concern.

Interesting piece in today's Grauniad about it.

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Mainly pins the blame on Blair's dogmatic approach to Europe. If there's one thing we can thank Brown and Balls for, its keeping us out of the Euro.

Lord Biro wrote:

Rubbish.  
Doom is ladled on thick by both sides. Leave and the planet collapses, stay and the UK becomes a satellite of Mecca.
I'm beginning to enjoy the hustings now, I knew I would. I liked the blue on blue quote. Typical Tory pseudo military speak.

So the leave campaign expressing concern about immigration had the same effect on the stock exchange as Osborne or Cameron making statements about £30 billion black holes or whatever?

The reality is that apart from a few money market fluctuations nothing will change overnight anyway, as other posters have said they will sort themselves out anyway, I'll come back to that in a moment.
The present government is in power until 2020 that gives us time to end the current relationship with Europe and start the new one. It was interesting to hear remainers saying that 100,000s of European workers will be expelled leaving the NHS with a worker shortage, absolute crap. We obviously need to address the issue and in three years time we need to know which people from abroad (and I mean the world in general not just Europe) and which we don't. We keep the skilled people we need and don't renew visas for the others (and hopefully at the same time start offering training to target the woeful skills gaps we have in this country) then we have at least 1.4m unemployed people in this country who could be paid the living wage to fill the gaps.
Whilst we are withdrawing we know which imports we need and these need to be maintained and for each import we recieve we shall ask for a tit for tat export. If they insist on tariffs we raise tariffs for imports. If this doesnt work out we put out an ad and ask for what we need from the rest of the world, not rocket science common sense business practice.
As for Frannies concern over markets and strength of the pound I'll repeat what I said before, it doesn't matter, if the pound falls, which I'm sure it will we will have a bright future for exports, bit of a bummer if like me you are planning on spending a few months abroad next year but I'll manage, get some currency now and maybe pay a bit more for the rest.
Also let's balance it with a view of what will happen to Europe in the future, the Eurozone economy and strength of the euro has been weak for some time, if it does go into a major meltdown we are tied in with 28 other countries the majority of which have a much lower GDP than ours, would it be easier to recover from a recession on our own two feet or being part of a 28 strong group several of which are already flat on their arses. I think the answer to that one is obvious.
As for Osbornes threatening to raise taxes it will only really infuriate the remainers mostly, they are the ones that have enough spare dosh and don't want to lose it to anybody. The lowest paid wont be affected by tax rises hardly at all but with no cheap foreign labour and the living wage will be much better off, this was demonstrated by Spotlight last night interviewing the guys in the pubs in Penzance.
All in all I agree with Dick Trick about not being swayed by any campaign, I like most people have formulated my ideas after being a part of Europe since the seventies, I've grown up with it since I was halfway through school and I know the direction I want to go in, firmly out for me.

It's all doom, just a matter of what your take on doom is.
The immigration fears have the same effect on the electorate as the economic meltdown thing, if not more so, so yes.,immigration has always been the main fear influencing people.
Anyway, I couldn't care less which way it goes. Immigration will carry on, apace and the markets will carry on skimming. It's just all a matter of which bunch of bullingdons hold the keys.
My firmly deeply held green beliefs are always best as a lobby movement rather than votes, and holding political power,  just as the business community does. It's where it's at., as there's virtually no chance green policies could ever gain mass traction in a country like the UK, as they have Germany.

One other issue that I meant to raise was the money for farmers, this sooooo badly needs reform it isn't true. Hundreds of thousands of smallholders like me have lost their £30 to £50 a year we used to get from Brussels. It was a handy bit of cash to keep the gates hung and the wire on the fences tight. That's all, didn't make a difference to our overall budget no jobs were lost, no one died and Im not bothered if it's replaced however despite talk about it there is no cap on the amount of subsidy you can claim, the more land you have the more money you get. My neighbour (an ex HSBC banker no less) buys an extra farm a year in the Tamar valley to add to his several thousand acre estate he has built up over the last decade purely funded by EU agricultural subsidy. Yes he bought the original manor and large farm with his own (lol or our money) but since then we have all been paying to help a really wealthy bloke increase his wealth year on year and he's not the only one.
I think this is a great example of the real benefit of belonging to Europe and why so many big businesses want to stay in, we the workers of Europe all pay approx £400 pa to not only maintain their wealth but to grow it year on year not bad in these times of austerity we are all subjected to.

Lord Biro wrote:

It's all doom, just a matter of what your take on doom is.
The immigration fears have the same effect on the electorate as the economic meltdown thing, if not more so, so yes.,immigration has always been the main fear influencing people.
Anyway, I couldn't care less which way it goes. Immigration will carry on, apace and the markets will carry on skimming. It's just all a matter of which bunch of bullingdons hold the keys.
My firmly deeply held green beliefs are always best as a lobby movement rather than votes, and holding political power,  just as the business community does. It's where it's at.

Well maybe when the electorate get rid of the unelected government in Brussels they will feel empowered enough to take on the present lot over here, I'm well up for it.

Any idea that a further right Tory government will rein in the monies flooding to the landowners in this country is frankly laughable. Johnson has already stated the payments will remain the same after an exit. They'll find a way to keep paying their ideological bed fellows. Land owners had huge subsides and tax perks way before the EU was even dreamed of. You should swot up on your Robbin Hood.

Amsterdamage wrote:

Lord Biro wrote:

It's all doom, just a matter of what your take on doom is.
The immigration fears have the same effect on the electorate as the economic meltdown thing, if not more so, so yes.,immigration has always been the main fear influencing people.
Anyway, I couldn't care less which way it goes. Immigration will carry on, apace and the markets will carry on skimming. It's just all a matter of which bunch of bullingdons hold the keys.
My firmly deeply held green beliefs are always best as a lobby movement rather than votes, and holding political power,  just as the business community does. It's where it's at.

Well maybe when the electorate get rid of the unelected government in Brussels they will feel empowered enough to take on the present lot over here, I'm well up for it.

What about the unelected government in Westminster?

Lord Biro wrote:

Any idea that a further right Tory government will rein in the monies flooding to the landowners in this country is frankly laughable. Johnson has already stated the payments will remain the same after an exit. They'll find a way to keep paying their ideological bed fellows. Land owners had huge subsides and tax perks way before the EU was even dreamed of. You should swot up on your Robbin Hood.

Where did I quote anything in an historical context? It's another example of something that needs changing, I'm amazed that a political activist like yourself has so little belief in our power to change anything? Man up FFS!

Hugh Watt wrote:

Amsterdamage wrote:

Lord Biro wrote:

It's all doom, just a matter of what your take on doom is.
The immigration fears have the same effect on the electorate as the economic meltdown thing, if not more so, so yes.,immigration has always been the main fear influencing people.
Anyway, I couldn't care less which way it goes. Immigration will carry on, apace and the markets will carry on skimming. It's just all a matter of which bunch of bullingdons hold the keys.
My firmly deeply held green beliefs are always best as a lobby movement rather than votes, and holding political power,  just as the business community does. It's where it's at.

Well maybe when the electorate get rid of the unelected government in Brussels they will feel empowered enough to take on the present lot over here, I'm well up for it.

What about the unelected government in Westminster?

Erm, the present lot over here was referring to Westminster, sorry should have made it plainer.

What makes me chuckle is the fact stated by the Breiters that we will be able to negotiate a new trade deal with the EU and many other countries.

Well, we will be able to negotiate "a" deal, but not one we will all necessarily like!

In every negoatiation, we will be negotiating with a weak (and the longer it goes on a more desparation like) hand.

Any negotiated deal with the EU will mean that we have to agree to all the rules we currently do and any new rules they come up with.

It won't be a "negotiation", it will be a take it or leave it deal! We will have to accept again what the Brexiters are against.

It will be a similar scenario with all other countries too. They will have the stronger negotiating hand.

The others don't need us as much as we need them, and they know it!

Anybody who thinks anything else is imo a fool.

Yeah, we get it moist

Les Miserable wrote:

Yeah, we get it moist

I don't think you do but hey ho!

Say for instance that Scotland had opted to leave the UK. Things didn't work out for them and they asked to rejoin the UK.

Would you give them the same or a better deal or make it hader to send a clear message to the rest of the UK the price to pay for leaving!

.....German humour at it's finest.

Les Miserable wrote:

.....German humour at it's finest.

I really do hope that if we vote out that everything turns out ok.

We can certainly agree on that mate.

Moist_Von_Lipwig wrote:

What makes me chuckle is the fact stated by the Breiters that we will be able to negotiate a new trade deal with the EU and many other countries.

Well, we will be able to negotiate "a" deal, but not one we will all necessarily like!

In every negoatiation, we will be negotiating with a weak (and the longer it goes on a more desparation like) hand.

Any negotiated deal with the EU will mean that we have to agree to all the rules we currently do and any new rules they come up with.

It won't be a "negotiation", it will be a take it or leave it deal! We will have to accept again what the Brexiters are against.

It will be a similar scenario with all other countries too. They will have the stronger negotiating hand.

The others don't need us as much as we need them, and they know it!

Anybody who thinks anything else is imo a fool.

You're over complicating business, politicians like to muddy the waters it suits their aims as pawns of big business.
I've been in business all my life only small beans compared to ICI but business non the less. It's easy. Do the French want to sell us cheese and wine? Yes then they have to take some product from us, if they don't then we make our own wine and or buy new new world wines. Cheese could probably be made over here and save our failing milk industry. We import more from Europe than we import that tips the scales massively in our favour in any trade deal.

I'll still be alright Franny, I even know how to grow and catch all my own food.

Today's face of the Remain campaign. The multi-multi-millionaire was telling hard working fishermen how they are better off in during a protest outside Westminster.
At least he had a good wash today...from trawler's deck hoses [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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And he is not even British

This is a laugh.

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All that money we save by not being in the EU will revolutionise our society.

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