Sheridan out?

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

mouldyoldgoat wrote:

As for budgets, we have no idea how big it is. The same as the club being able to say that its budget is the 7th - 9th biggest in the division. I really can't see clubs telling each other what they have available to spend.

I made pretty much that exact same point a while back somewhere to somebody (I genuinely can't remember who or where) and was told that the clubs have to periodically submit accounts to the FL as part of the salary cap ruling. The FL then checks the figures for chicanery and distributes the compiled submissions to everybody in the league to allow everybody to police everybody else so, unlikely though it seems, if what I was told is true (and I was convinced enough at the time not to doubt that it was true) then there is a "Budget Table" and each team would certainly know its position in it.

Apologies for the length but this is the best explanation of the a Salary Management Cap Protocol available for League 1 and 2 clubs and demonstrates why it can change over a season.

The best budget is not always a guarantee of success as the club with the highest budget in League 2 and which is debt free is within two points of the relegation places. The clubs are monitored regularly to ensure NI and PAYE payments are made on the due date.


Salary Cost Management Protocol (SCMP) explained 16 May 2014

Clubs in the League 1 and League 2 operate within a Spending Constraint framework termed Salary Cost Management Protocol (SMCP). SCMP limits spending on player wages to a percentage of club Turnover. In League 1 clubs can spend a maximum of 60% of their turnover on wages - in League 2, the limit is 55%. There are no restrictions (in themselves) on the amount a club can lose or spend on transfer fees.

Initially introduced into League 2 in 2004/5 for guidance purposes, sanctions for breaching the SCMP thresholds were introduced during the 2011/12 season, with Swindon the first club to be sanctioned under the rules.

The process is interactive with clubs providing the Football League with projections for the spending for the coming season. During the season the clubs provide regular updates on their Turnover and wage bill. Any club that is forecasting a wage spend within 5% of the figure will be scrutinised more closely. Where a club is on course to exceed the limits, the Football League will apply a Transfer Embargo. Crucially, a club doesn't have to overspend to incur the embargo, it only needs to shown to be heading for an overspend. This interactive approach enables clubs to increase their wage bill if their circumstances improve - a successful cup run will generate increased income and the Football League may be able to sanction additional wage spend. Because SCMP doesn't rely on the retrospective scrutiny of club accounts, it is also extremely effective at stopping overspend before the spending actually occurs (something that has been a problem for the Championship's version of FFP).

The Football League's website's explanation of the rules doesn't go into a great deal of detail about how they operate. However they have responded to enquiries and confirmed a number of areas that help us to better understand the rules.

Relegated clubs

The rules apply to all clubs and there is no moratorium for clubs relegated from the Championship. However, Transitional Arrangements are in place whereby clubs are allowed to exclude the wage costs of all players that the club signed pre September of the relegation season, if they were signed on contracts in excess of 3 seasons.

Turnover definition

Under the SCMP rules, the definition of 'Turnover' is particularly important as Turnover is used to determine the maximum wage-spend. Within a traditional accounting perspective, there are usually only three elements of turnover:

Match-day Income
Commercial Income (such as sponsorship)
TV revenue (and any 'merit payments' based on league position)
However the Football League use a is broader definition of Turnover. Crucially, the FL Turnover figure includes donations from the owners to the club and injections of equity. Loans from club owners are understandably not included in the Turnover figure as these would result in growing club debts. up club debts. In League 1 and League 2, a wealthy owner can therefore fund the club spending in a way that is not permitted in other divisions. Manchester City and Leicester for example seem set for punishment for their excessive losses (from UEFA and the Championship respectively) despite the fact that the owners have injected hard cash into the club to finance the spending.

Profit on player sales

Any profit made on player sales is included withinTurnover on a cash basis when the instalments are received.

Player Wages and deductions

Under SCMP, 'Wages' relates to player wages only (director remuneration and general club staff wages are not included in the SCMP calculation). Player wages included in the SCMP calculation relate to all contract players (full contract, non-contract, multiplicity etc.) and loan players. Wage costs for players loaned out to other clubs are deducted for the period of the loan. Wage costs for Youth players on a professional contract are also excluded (i.e. players that have been in the club’s Youth Development scheme and have been given a pro contract); they must be 20 years of age or under at the start of the season to be discounted from the SCMP calculation.

Direct Costs incurred within Turnover

Within Turnover, clubs can include such things as Hospitality/Banqueting income (whether it is match day or non-match day income). The direct costs have to be deducted to reach a figure that is submitted on the SCMP return. For Hospitality/Banqueting for example, the Direct costs are all costs directly attributable to put on a hospitality/banqueting event. This would include food & beverage, direct staff and cleaning costs such as laundry etc.

Wise words, my dear old thing . [Czarcasm]

Without the demise of pasoti as a vibrant, challenging arena since KJN has ruled the roost, ATD would not need to exist and more importantly, successive 'owners' wouldn't have received such an easy ride from the fans, through the oldest and largest forum being cleansed of all dissenting voices. They have turned the place into a bucket rattling Avivafest, through which the generals receive their perks at the Theatre of Schemes.
The Windsor Boys oft used to fluctuate between, 'It's only the internet. It's not real.'.............and 'Never underestimate the power of internet', whenever it suits.

From the Pasoti mafia, through the tents, the timid Trust and onto the picture pages of GOS, it's all about being someone, getting close to the players past and present etc while gentleman Jim goes about his real business interests.

So very janner. So very small minded football people. So very Plymouth.

Tringreen wrote:

Wise words, my dear old thing .

Without the demise of pasoti as a vibrant, challenging arena since KJN has ruled the roost, ATD would not need to exist and more importantly, successive 'owners' wouldn't have received such an easy ride from the fans, through the oldest and largest forum being cleansed of all dissenting voices. They have turned the place into a bucket rattling Avivafest, through which the generals receive their perks at the Theatre of Schemes.
The Windsor Boys oft used to fluctuate between, 'It's only the internet. It's not real.'.............and 'Never underestimate the power of internet', whenever it suits.

From the Pasoti mafia, through the tents, the timid Trust and onto the picture pages of GOS, it's all about being someone, getting close to the players past and present etc while gentleman Jim goes about his real business interests.

So very janner. So very small minded football people. So very Plymouth.

Have you read the fans team talk letter yet Tring? lol

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

That wasn't meant to come across as a telling off! I'm sorry I can't be more specific about exactly what information is shared, who told me or how I found that out and I don't know that it is true for sure. I think it is though.

What really is odd is that this has never been published by the FL or leaked by anybody anywhere.

Make of it what you will.

No offence taken Sir FD!

has he been sacked yet? or at least placed on garden leave?

no?

why am I not suprised?

Any other club in the league, premiership to conference would have been sacked with such a dismal run of form, especially as we are slipping out of range of the playoff's.

Ahh well at least we are meeting Jimmy's target - stay in League 2.


Disgusting

argyl3 wrote:

has he been sacked yet? or at least placed on garden leave?

no?

why am I not suprised?

Any other club in the league, premiership to conference would have been sacked with such a dismal run of form, especially as we are slipping out of range of the playoff's.

Ahh well at least we are meeting Jimmy's target - stay in League 2.


Disgusting

And they get sacked with such ferocity.

The decline in fortunes has been a travesty, make no mistake about that.

He should go, and go now.

What i believe could happen though is that Sheridan is given the dreaded vote of confidence.

We know not what the actual budget is, other than speculation, but what i would really like to know is what was said at the initial interview Sheridan had for the managerial vacancy at Argyle.

VillageGreen wrote:

argyl3 wrote:

has he been sacked yet? or at least placed on garden leave?

no?

why am I not suprised?

Any other club in the league, premiership to conference would have been sacked with such a dismal run of form, especially as we are slipping out of range of the playoff's.

Ahh well at least we are meeting Jimmy's target - stay in League 2.


Disgusting

And they get sacked with such ferocity.

The decline in fortunes has been a travesty, make no mistake about that.

He should go, and go now.

What i believe could happen though is that Sheridan is given the dreaded vote of confidence.

We will get a good understanding on Sheridan's future and standing in the boards eyes come tomorrow at midnight.
If board back him he will be able to bring in the players needed and have some funds to do it max of 4. If the board however are starting to feel like a change coming he wont be bringing in players like we need, maybe 1 poss 2 on loan and save the money.

Either way i think he will be kept on till the end of the season, after all we are only 4 points out of the loop and its Feb so its not a million miles away. But at the end of the season if we miss out on the playoffs/promotion i think the club will ask him to resign so they dont have to pay him up.

VillageGreen wrote:

argyl3 wrote:

has he been sacked yet? or at least placed on garden leave?

no?

why am I not suprised?

Any other club in the league, premiership to conference would have been sacked with such a dismal run of form, especially as we are slipping out of range of the playoff's.

Ahh well at least we are meeting Jimmy's target - stay in League 2.


Disgusting

And they get sacked with such ferocity.

The decline in fortunes has been a travesty, make no mistake about that.

He should go, and go now.

What i believe could happen though is that Sheridan is given the dreaded vote of confidence.

We know not what the actual budget is, other than speculation, but what i would really like to know is what was said at the initial interview Sheridan had for the managerial vacancy at Argyle.

We don't know what the actual budget is but we do know that it is between 7th-9th in the division-James Brent said so at a fans meeting [at Bodmin,i believe] around about September last year.

Yeah right, 7th to 9th? Why not exactly 7th, 8th or 9th? I smell bullshit. We all know how easy it is to manipulate statistics and anyway with our crowds we should be top four even with the debt repayments unless the debt is higher than we are led to believe?

Nice to see some actual discussion of the manager since yesterday, albeit along firmly established party lines.

Most over here are blaming the owner, most over on 'tother site are blaming the manager, 'twas ever thus.

Hey ho, I guess the sites will have to politely agree to disagree again in the spirit of mutual respect  

Truth is, as usual, blame always lies somewhere in the middle. Only by reading both sides of the debate will anyone ever furnish themselves with the whole picture with which to form their own opinion. Shame therefore that Sam had to post this....        

GreenSam wrote:

.......As an old saying goes, an ideologue tries to make the facts fit his pre-existing belief. A truly independent thinker bases his beliefs on the facts that he can discern and stands for the opinion that he genuinely holds even if it means standing in the minority. No matter how much I get slated for it, pilloried for it, called a pasoti-emissary or a Brentite or a red under the bed or whatever, I genuinely stand by my viewpoint. If all those small clubs with their minuscule budgets are capable of doing better then why can't we with our budget that is at the very least contentious.

The see no evil, militant-Brentophiles on pasoti call me a Brown Tint or a neggytroll. The Sheridan-loyalist, militant-Brentophobes on here call me a Green Tint or an Aviva. The actual fact is that I come to my own opinion on something no matter what and I'll call out something i disagree with wherever I see it.

Good on ya, spot on, and you're not alone. In the crazy world of Argyle messageboards folk only seem to respect black or white, any shade of grey is to be suspected, feared and ridiculed. Independent thought is seemingly viewed the same way circumnavigation was viewed by the flat earth society, impossible. On PASOTI you're considered to be in league with the devil for coming here and on here you're a PASOTI spy or somehow bezzie mates with "Nool" and "Brenty" on a mission to subvert the purity of negativity. Taking the centre ground makes you an outsider, to both ends of the spectrum, to be run out of their respective villages (pun intended).    

Ho hum, I guess this is the closest we'll ever get to feeling like a Liberal Democrat

Shouldn't be made to choose between one of the other as both sides have as much merit and they have demons. Trick is to live with it mate, it'll never change and you're the better man for at least being open to receiving different views, even if you don't ultimately agree with them.

PS - For that very reason, and in the interests of balance, whoever last night's 'guest' was?... they're a bit of a cowardly knobber for coming over just to have a go. If you've got something to say 'guesty', say it and stay to stand by it. Otherwise you're just an insurgent, dropping off your bomb then getting out. Poor form.

Hitch wrote:

ejh wrote:

People seem to be suggesting that Sheridan is woefully underfunded, or that the squad isnt any better this season.

Blanchard out, McHugh in
Trotman out, Hartley in.
Berry out, Mellor in.
Hourihane out, Cox in.

Apart from Hourihane, each of those players is better than the equivalent last season. I'd bet they are being better paid too.

Kellett, O'Connor and Bobby have made important contributions as well. These loans dont always come free. We might have been paying wages or offering clubs a few thousand to sweeten loan deals. It wouldnt surprise me at all they way these clubs have been 'recallihg' players left right and centre until a new deal can be arranged.

And then of course there is Reuben Reid. He stayed at this club when he no doubt had better offers. So all in all you cant lay the blame at Brent's door. If it is his job to ensure the playing side of things improves, he has backed Sheridan to bring better players in.

It is Sheridan's fault he signed a waste of a wage in Marvin Morgan.
It is Sheridan's fault he never signed a midfielder WITH ANY GOAL THREAT WHATSOEVER to replace Hourihane.
It is Sheridan's fault his team is incapable of recovering from a losing position.
It is Sheridan's fault he gets outwitted by any pot bellied manager in a track suit.
It is Sheridan's fault that the club's most exciting attacker has barely featured AT ALL this season.
It is Sheridan's fault his team appears to ge incapable of winning away.

apart from appointing Sheridan or not sacking him sooner, I really cant understand why the fury is being directed at Brent in the situation we find ourselves in. Brent is still bringing in players from Birmingham and Mk Dons, he is doing his part. The shit effort on the pitch - that is Sheridan's responsibility.

Partly - but the shit effort is actually being put in by the players playing like shit. Too easy to pile all the blame on Sheridan. I just don't believe these players are that inspired by the whole deep-rooted village set-up that runs throughout the entire club. Little or no passion or pride let alone technical ability. Comparing most players at this level, with a few exceptions, is like choosing which colour Austin Allegro you preferred.

at that bit. God they were shit, mine (inherited first car, I didn't choose it) was an estate in 'vermillion', a horrible vivid orange. The only compensation was that the rust didn't show so much.

I see your point but am inclined, on balance, to agree with EJH. Overall squad strength improved and a not at all unreasonable expectation was that would push us that little bit further up the table. It hasn't and we're going backwards.

The wider issues appertaining to the overall club situation are one thing, it's debatable if they have a bearing on things or not. But *if* there is a cause and effect at play there then it's for the management team to deal with it, to protect the players from it. Buck stops here though, for team performance issues you have to look at the team performance lead, and that's John Sheridan.

X Isle wrote:

Hitch wrote:

ejh wrote:

People seem to be suggesting that Sheridan is woefully underfunded, or that the squad isnt any better this season.

Blanchard out, McHugh in
Trotman out, Hartley in.
Berry out, Mellor in.
Hourihane out, Cox in.

Apart from Hourihane, each of those players is better than the equivalent last season. I'd bet they are being better paid too.

Kellett, O'Connor and Bobby have made important contributions as well. These loans dont always come free. We might have been paying wages or offering clubs a few thousand to sweeten loan deals. It wouldnt surprise me at all they way these clubs have been 'recallihg' players left right and centre until a new deal can be arranged.

And then of course there is Reuben Reid. He stayed at this club when he no doubt had better offers. So all in all you cant lay the blame at Brent's door. If it is his job to ensure the playing side of things improves, he has backed Sheridan to bring better players in.

It is Sheridan's fault he signed a waste of a wage in Marvin Morgan.
It is Sheridan's fault he never signed a midfielder WITH ANY GOAL THREAT WHATSOEVER to replace Hourihane.
It is Sheridan's fault his team is incapable of recovering from a losing position.
It is Sheridan's fault he gets outwitted by any pot bellied manager in a track suit.
It is Sheridan's fault that the club's most exciting attacker has barely featured AT ALL this season.
It is Sheridan's fault his team appears to ge incapable of winning away.

apart from appointing Sheridan or not sacking him sooner, I really cant understand why the fury is being directed at Brent in the situation we find ourselves in. Brent is still bringing in players from Birmingham and Mk Dons, he is doing his part. The shit effort on the pitch - that is Sheridan's responsibility.

Partly - but the shit effort is actually being put in by the players playing like shit. Too easy to pile all the blame on Sheridan. I just don't believe these players are that inspired by the whole deep-rooted village set-up that runs throughout the entire club. Little or no passion or pride let alone technical ability. Comparing most players at this level, with a few exceptions, is like choosing which colour Austin Allegro you preferred.

at that bit. God they were shit, mine (inherited first car, I didn't choose it) was an estate in 'vermillion', a horrible vivid orange. The only compensation was that the rust didn't show so much.

I see your point but am inclined, on balance, to agree with EJH. Overall squad strength improved and a not at all unreasonable expectation was that would push us that little bit further up the table. It hasn't and we're going backwards.

The wider issues appertaining to the overall club situation are one thing, it's debatable if they have a bearing on things or not. But *if* there is a cause and effect at play there then it's for the management team to deal with it, to protect the players from it. Buck stops here though, for team performance issues you have to look at the team performance lead, and that's John Sheridan.  

So who picks the manager?
Who provides funding?

Like I said earlier people where howling for Dan Macauley's head on a plate the last time we were in the doldrums in L2,Brent is on the brink of having a worse record then Mad Dan.!! what makes Brent infallible to criticism ?
It's bizarre.

Ah, that's been confirmed as Josh then has it 'Les'. There's a good reason why I only voted for one 'yoof' on the ballot paper. This thread confirms I definitely picked the right one

Punchy. I can see why a comparison might be drawn with Mc666, but only if drawn from the very narrow context of length of time in L2 only whilst overlooking many other things. When you bring in the bigger picture it's far less "bizarre" as you put it...

Administration v not in administration. Under Mc666 we weren't recovering from a near extinction event, it'd never happened to us, it was unthinkable. That must surely concentrate the mind when looking for a gallows and rope now, where it didn't before. We probably will stay in L2 longer under James Brent but that stat alone, with the context of how we got to L2 on both occasions and what happened while we were in there removed, is unfair. Mc666 relegated us twice to get us there don't forget, there was bad blood before we even got to L2.

Prickly hands on character v quiet detached character. I know his hands off methods annoy some folk but are they worse than Dan's random 'shoot from the hip' diplomacy?, sackings on mobiles, banning the press and of course the crowning turd on his lawn.....

Threatening to resign us from the league v not threatening to resign us from the league. Dan did that remember, he was adamant that if the fans didn't 'tow the line' and put up with his shit then he'd just wind up the business. Compare that with the dignified silence of today's incumbent despite all manner of conspiracy theories and accusations (whether justified or not).

That Talksport phone-in v a boring 'straight bat' media profile. I've got a printed off transcript of it, it's a case study in megalomania, a stated case in 'the people v dictatorship'. James Brent's approach towards fan engagement is much more dignified, I accept there are issues around what he doesn't say, he's far too hands off at times, but I'm more comfortable with an owner who doesn't open his mouth than one who opens his mouth to verbally abuse the fans.

Context is everything, a simple 'X years in L2 v Y years in L2' is way too simplistic a comparison, it's virtually meaningless. The lack of progress in all departments is frustrating, I feel that frustration too. But let's not use it to falsely create a revisionist rose tinted view of the relative merits of Dan McCauley.

Punchdrunk wrote:

X Isle wrote:

Hitch wrote:

ejh wrote:

People seem to be suggesting that Sheridan is woefully underfunded, or that the squad isnt any better this season.

Blanchard out, McHugh in
Trotman out, Hartley in.
Berry out, Mellor in.
Hourihane out, Cox in.

Apart from Hourihane, each of those players is better than the equivalent last season. I'd bet they are being better paid too.

Kellett, O'Connor and Bobby have made important contributions as well. These loans dont always come free. We might have been paying wages or offering clubs a few thousand to sweeten loan deals. It wouldnt surprise me at all they way these clubs have been 'recallihg' players left right and centre until a new deal can be arranged.

And then of course there is Reuben Reid. He stayed at this club when he no doubt had better offers. So all in all you cant lay the blame at Brent's door. If it is his job to ensure the playing side of things improves, he has backed Sheridan to bring better players in.

It is Sheridan's fault he signed a waste of a wage in Marvin Morgan.
It is Sheridan's fault he never signed a midfielder WITH ANY GOAL THREAT WHATSOEVER to replace Hourihane.
It is Sheridan's fault his team is incapable of recovering from a losing position.
It is Sheridan's fault he gets outwitted by any pot bellied manager in a track suit.
It is Sheridan's fault that the club's most exciting attacker has barely featured AT ALL this season.
It is Sheridan's fault his team appears to ge incapable of winning away.

apart from appointing Sheridan or not sacking him sooner, I really cant understand why the fury is being directed at Brent in the situation we find ourselves in. Brent is still bringing in players from Birmingham and Mk Dons, he is doing his part. The shit effort on the pitch - that is Sheridan's responsibility.

Partly - but the shit effort is actually being put in by the players playing like shit. Too easy to pile all the blame on Sheridan. I just don't believe these players are that inspired by the whole deep-rooted village set-up that runs throughout the entire club. Little or no passion or pride let alone technical ability. Comparing most players at this level, with a few exceptions, is like choosing which colour Austin Allegro you preferred.

at that bit. God they were shit, mine (inherited first car, I didn't choose it) was an estate in 'vermillion', a horrible vivid orange. The only compensation was that the rust didn't show so much.

I see your point but am inclined, on balance, to agree with EJH. Overall squad strength improved and a not at all unreasonable expectation was that would push us that little bit further up the table. It hasn't and we're going backwards.

The wider issues appertaining to the overall club situation are one thing, it's debatable if they have a bearing on things or not. But *if* there is a cause and effect at play there then it's for the management team to deal with it, to protect the players from it. Buck stops here though, for team performance issues you have to look at the team performance lead, and that's John Sheridan.  

So who picks the manager?
Who provides funding?

Like I said earlier people where howling for Dan Macauley's head on a plate the last time we were in the doldrums in L2,Brent is on the brink of having a worse record then Mad Dan.!! what makes Brent infallible  to criticism ?
It's bizarre.

dan was opinionated and it came across in the media, on the other hand brent just talks drivel both blokes are the opposite to each other.

All this name-calling is ridiculously childish. Anyway, back to the topic at hand - Sheridan out absolutely - but we have to change manager in the next 10 days or it will be too late.

pilgrimfather wrote:

All this name-calling is ridiculously childish. Anyway, back to the topic at hand - Sheridan out absolutely - but we have to change manager in the next 10 days or it will be too late.

I agree on something, woohoo

(thread edits noted and respected, thank you)

X Isle wrote:

pilgrimfather wrote:

All this name-calling is ridiculously childish. Anyway, back to the topic at hand - Sheridan out absolutely - but we have to change manager in the next 10 days or it will be too late.

I agree on something, woohoo

(thread edits noted and respected, thank you)

So you change the manager..he fails to deliver?
What next..sack him again?!

What about the bigger picture?

[

We know not what the actual budget is, other than speculation, but what i would really like to know is what was said at the initial interview Sheridan had for the managerial vacancy at Argyle.
[/quote]

i think he played a blinder, working 2 / 3 days a week, no wonder the players do not believe in him with such a lack of commitment from shez
prolly put our L -plate chairman in his place and made him grateful to sign him on!!

We have two major issues:

1) The long-term issue of a poor owner.

2) The short-term issue of a manager who, despite having a good squad, is tactically inept and can't get the best out of them.

While issue 1 is hard to solve, issue 2 can be easily rectified by sacking John Sheridan. These are not average mid-table players in this league. Mellor, Cox, Morgan, McHugh, Smalley and Hartley have all won promotion from this league before. McCormick and Blizzard won promotion from the division above. Reuben Reid has had two 20 goal seasons in this league, and did look to be on the way to it again this term. Curtis Nelson has seen interest from teams higher up the pyramid. Anthony O'Connor, Andy Kellett and Bobby Reid have all looked very good in their loan spells.

There's no excuse for Sheridan's underachievement.

Sheridan has the players to do well. I've seem some very good performances this season.

I think he overcomplicates things and then does things that are retarded. McHugh at left back?! or not playing Banton/Thomas when we cry out for invention and pace.

Losing 3 loanees at roughly the same time shows a lack of planning and forward thinking. Yes he tried to sign O'Connor but any Argyle affiliated person would do because he's class for league 2.

He must take the team on a run like we did in Autumn or its P45 time I am afraid.

I see that Di Canio has now been added the list of possible Argyle manager.

This season will define Brents tenure too....

Di Canio? Feck me we would be worse off if that's possible...

Do the beards not understand that any new manager coming in will want money to strengthen the squad and we all know Brent wont do that beyond Loan singings so what is the point in them naming dinosaurs like Warnock and Sturrock and manager who are known for pissing away money like pearce and di canio.

Get real guys.

Angry wrote:

Do the beards not understand that any new manager coming in will want money to strengthen the squad and we all know Brent wont do that beyond Loan singings so what is the point in them naming dinosaurs like Warnock and Sturrock and manager who are known for pissing away money like pearce and di canio.

Get real guys.

Absofeckinlutely

feckin wake up lads...BRENT OUT