In the "News" today.

Hitch wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

Well whether they should subsidies and tax-breaks is another debate altogether, but those who DO want to practise their religion peacefully (which, even you must surely admit is the overwhelming majority) should be able to do so even if you don't agree with the principle of it.

Again, you say that Islam's followers refuse point blank to reform. If we are to take it that most Muslims despise ISIS and jihadists (and why the heck wouldn't they because Muslims are the number one victims of jihadists) then why exactly does their religion need reforming if the vast majority of people practise it in a peaceful way anyway.

The people who need reforming or preferably being locked up forever are the jihadists. And whilst I know that you surely can't really think that jihadists are representative of the majority of Muslims, I still would strongly disagree with your text I tackled in the previous paragraphs which suggests otherwise.

Do you know what the penalty for apostasy is as taught by 'moderate' Imams in THIS country ? Death. Forced religious teaching and indoctrination of the very young and impressionable is nothing short of child abuse. Talk to a few women born into muslim families about how they feel they are treated. Infact if you can find any talk especially to women born in Saudi Arabia. Wahhabism is particularly evil.

All religious teaching is the practice of telling lies to the very young, the vulnerable and the stupid. I'd personally like it all consigned to museums and history or preferably wiped from the face of the earth. Maybe it'll happen in the next few thousand years after the apocalypse.

In principle I agree with your reasoning for why religion is wrong, but that doesn't mean that yours or my opinion should stop someone else from believing something totally different. Whilst we believe it's all medieval claptrap, there are millions (billions?) around the world who feel otherwise. Personally, I think we need to respect that.

You can actually utilise mainstream Islam to help prevent more radicalization, it's a minority who form IS after all. I do actually believe that parts of Islam sort of make sense, much more than the pathetic excuse of modern Christianity.

Josh Pope wrote:

Orkwood T Watt wrote:

Just watching PMQ's. What a bunch of no-good, spineless, spoilt, shit-chewing, slack-jawed maggots. These wack-jobs are leaders of this nation. How fecking embarrassing.

More interested in tit-for-tat quips and put-downs, rather than sorting out the dire shite this country's in. I despair.

It's an embarrassment, they don't answer the questions anyway. Every point is just turned into a hit out at the other party. It's a shambles and absolutely puts me (and many others I expect) off going into politics.

Miliband wants to remove PMQ's if he is elected. By God I hope he sticks to that if it happens.

Don't be so naive to believe this shite, Josh. It's another empty pre-election load of shite.

This GE, I promised myself I would, where possible, jot down all the pre-election BS pledges and promises from all parties, and then post GE, say plus another 6-12 months, see if actually any of them are even being talked about. Let alone implemented.

Anyone made a similar list? I have failed miserably!

Corrupt, nest feathering, lying bunch of upper-class, totally detached, Etonian, cock-gargling thunder-cuunts. The lot of em. I'm voting for my dog.

Josh Pope wrote:

Hitch wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

Well whether they should subsidies and tax-breaks is another debate altogether, but those who DO want to practise their religion peacefully (which, even you must surely admit is the overwhelming majority) should be able to do so even if you don't agree with the principle of it.

Again, you say that Islam's followers refuse point blank to reform. If we are to take it that most Muslims despise ISIS and jihadists (and why the heck wouldn't they because Muslims are the number one victims of jihadists) then why exactly does their religion need reforming if the vast majority of people practise it in a peaceful way anyway.

The people who need reforming or preferably being locked up forever are the jihadists. And whilst I know that you surely can't really think that jihadists are representative of the majority of Muslims, I still would strongly disagree with your text I tackled in the previous paragraphs which suggests otherwise.

Do you know what the penalty for apostasy is as taught by 'moderate' Imams in THIS country ? Death. Forced religious teaching and indoctrination of the very young and impressionable is nothing short of child abuse. Talk to a few women born into muslim families about how they feel they are treated. Infact if you can find any talk especially to women born in Saudi Arabia. Wahhabism is particularly evil.

All religious teaching is the practice of telling lies to the very young, the vulnerable and the stupid. I'd personally like it all consigned to museums and history or preferably wiped from the face of the earth. Maybe it'll happen in the next few thousand years after the apocalypse.

In principle I agree with your reasoning for why religion is wrong, but that doesn't mean that yours or my opinion should stop someone else from believing something totally different. Whilst we believe it's all medieval claptrap, there are millions (billions?) around the world who feel otherwise. Personally, I think we need to respect that.

You can actually utilise mainstream Islam to help prevent more radicalization, it's a minority who form IS after all. I do actually believe that parts of Islam sort of make sense, much more than the pathetic excuse of modern Christianity.

Respect the fact that there are billions of young, impoverished and vulnerable people in the world denied a proper honest education that are bullied and oppressed by corrupt religious leaders in positions enormous power and wealth? Not a prayer.

Religion is generally corrupt whichever God you believe in

Hitch wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

Well whether they should subsidies and tax-breaks is another debate altogether, but those who DO want to practise their religion peacefully (which, even you must surely admit is the overwhelming majority) should be able to do so even if you don't agree with the principle of it.

Again, you say that Islam's followers refuse point blank to reform. If we are to take it that most Muslims despise ISIS and jihadists (and why the heck wouldn't they because Muslims are the number one victims of jihadists) then why exactly does their religion need reforming if the vast majority of people practise it in a peaceful way anyway.

The people who need reforming or preferably being locked up forever are the jihadists. And whilst I know that you surely can't really think that jihadists are representative of the majority of Muslims, I still would strongly disagree with your text I tackled in the previous paragraphs which suggests otherwise.

Do you know what the penalty for apostasy is as taught by 'moderate' Imams in THIS country ? Death. Forced religious teaching and indoctrination of the very young and impressionable is nothing short of child abuse. Talk to a few women born into muslim families about how they feel they are treated. Infact if you can find any talk especially to women born in Saudi Arabia. Wahhabism is particularly evil.

All religious teaching is the practice of telling lies to the very young, the vulnerable and the stupid. I'd personally like it all consigned to museums and history or preferably wiped from the face of the earth. Maybe it'll happen in the next few thousand years after the apocalypse.

Making sweeping statements such as 'moderate Imams support death for apostasy' is part of the problem in my opinion. Do they all? Do anything like all Muslims support it? Again the answers to both is no.

What you are doing in my view (which I STRONGLY disagree with) is writing off all Muslims who want to follow a peaceful interpretation of their faith just because a small minority support barbarous punishments and a much smaller minority perform barbarous actions. The many peaceful Muslims who I know and in one case have lived with would be shocked at the very idea that someone would generalise him as supporting such monstrous actions.

You talk about 'if I can talk to' somebody, but I'd spin that on its head and say if you actually talk to the many Muslims in this country who are good, kind and more liberal than you or even me then you may change your views too.

Les Miserable wrote:

The problem with islam is that many of the so called moderates are only moderate when being interviewed by the press or news channels, in reality they turn a blind eye to or even support the more extreme elements of their so called peace loving religion. University indoctrinated liberalism forcefed to the likes of Greensam only serves to exacerbate the problem and they end up becoming apologists for a narrow minded and often barbaric cult, however, how often do you hear those same people questioning the treatment of muslim women by muslim men or by countries like Saudi Arabia where they are treated worse than second class citizens?

And maybe some of the moderates (as scary as it may be to you to think of a Muslim as anything other than a bogeyman) genuinely hold the opinions that they hold. Where's your proof that they all turn a blind eye? What about the actions of prominent Muslims writers such as Mehdi Hassan or Maajid Nawaz who have written on many occasions about challenging the more unsavoury characters within their faith?

And don't talk to me about university indoctrinated liberalism. For one thing, I ain't no liberal. For another thing, I had my views before university. But they were only solidified by actually going to a city that was a lot more diverse than Plymouth and seeing that the Muslims I met there were not all part of one big incestuous community in which everybody knows the business of everybody else like you seem to imply is the case. None of them wanted to chop off my head, either.

Levels of anti-Muslim prejudice are actually lower in highly populated Muslim areas. There's a reason for that and it's because people who don't actually know Muslims tend to assume that they are all either extremists or enablers of extremists. This could not be further from the truth.

GreenSam wrote:

Hitch wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

Well whether they should subsidies and tax-breaks is another debate altogether, but those who DO want to practise their religion peacefully (which, even you must surely admit is the overwhelming majority) should be able to do so even if you don't agree with the principle of it.

Again, you say that Islam's followers refuse point blank to reform. If we are to take it that most Muslims despise ISIS and jihadists (and why the heck wouldn't they because Muslims are the number one victims of jihadists) then why exactly does their religion need reforming if the vast majority of people practise it in a peaceful way anyway.

The people who need reforming or preferably being locked up forever are the jihadists. And whilst I know that you surely can't really think that jihadists are representative of the majority of Muslims, I still would strongly disagree with your text I tackled in the previous paragraphs which suggests otherwise.

Do you know what the penalty for apostasy is as taught by 'moderate' Imams in THIS country ? Death. Forced religious teaching and indoctrination of the very young and impressionable is nothing short of child abuse. Talk to a few women born into muslim families about how they feel they are treated. Infact if you can find any talk especially to women born in Saudi Arabia. Wahhabism is particularly evil.

All religious teaching is the practice of telling lies to the very young, the vulnerable and the stupid. I'd personally like it all consigned to museums and history or preferably wiped from the face of the earth. Maybe it'll happen in the next few thousand years after the apocalypse.

Making sweeping statements such as 'moderate Imams support death for apostasy' is part of the problem in my opinion. Do they all? Do anything like all Muslims support it? Again the answers to both is no.

What you are doing in my view (which I STRONGLY disagree with) is writing off all Muslims who want to follow a peaceful interpretation of their faith just because a small minority support barbarous punishments and a much smaller minority perform barbarous actions. The many peaceful Muslims who I know and in one case have lived with would be shocked at the very idea that someone would generalise him as supporting such monstrous actions.

You talk about 'if I can talk to' somebody, but I'd spin that on its head and say if you actually talk to the many Muslims in this country who are good, kind and more liberal than you or even me then you may change your views too.

Have a listen to this.

Apostasy = Death penalty

Hitch wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

Hitch wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

Well whether they should subsidies and tax-breaks is another debate altogether, but those who DO want to practise their religion peacefully (which, even you must surely admit is the overwhelming majority) should be able to do so even if you don't agree with the principle of it.

Again, you say that Islam's followers refuse point blank to reform. If we are to take it that most Muslims despise ISIS and jihadists (and why the heck wouldn't they because Muslims are the number one victims of jihadists) then why exactly does their religion need reforming if the vast majority of people practise it in a peaceful way anyway.

The people who need reforming or preferably being locked up forever are the jihadists. And whilst I know that you surely can't really think that jihadists are representative of the majority of Muslims, I still would strongly disagree with your text I tackled in the previous paragraphs which suggests otherwise.

Do you know what the penalty for apostasy is as taught by 'moderate' Imams in THIS country ? Death. Forced religious teaching and indoctrination of the very young and impressionable is nothing short of child abuse. Talk to a few women born into muslim families about how they feel they are treated. Infact if you can find any talk especially to women born in Saudi Arabia. Wahhabism is particularly evil.

All religious teaching is the practice of telling lies to the very young, the vulnerable and the stupid. I'd personally like it all consigned to museums and history or preferably wiped from the face of the earth. Maybe it'll happen in the next few thousand years after the apocalypse.

Making sweeping statements such as 'moderate Imams support death for apostasy' is part of the problem in my opinion. Do they all? Do anything like all Muslims support it? Again the answers to both is no.

What you are doing in my view (which I STRONGLY disagree with) is writing off all Muslims who want to follow a peaceful interpretation of their faith just because a small minority support barbarous punishments and a much smaller minority perform barbarous actions. The many peaceful Muslims who I know and in one case have lived with would be shocked at the very idea that someone would generalise him as supporting such monstrous actions.

You talk about 'if I can talk to' somebody, but I'd spin that on its head and say if you actually talk to the many Muslims in this country who are good, kind and more liberal than you or even me then you may change your views too.

Have a listen to this.

Apostasy = Death penalty

All of the 1.6 billions Muslims in the world must have spoken with their lips closed in that video.

Impressive feat that it didn't create more of an echo.

GreenSam wrote:

Hitch wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

Hitch wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

Well whether they should subsidies and tax-breaks is another debate altogether, but those who DO want to practise their religion peacefully (which, even you must surely admit is the overwhelming majority) should be able to do so even if you don't agree with the principle of it.

Again, you say that Islam's followers refuse point blank to reform. If we are to take it that most Muslims despise ISIS and jihadists (and why the heck wouldn't they because Muslims are the number one victims of jihadists) then why exactly does their religion need reforming if the vast majority of people practise it in a peaceful way anyway.

The people who need reforming or preferably being locked up forever are the jihadists. And whilst I know that you surely can't really think that jihadists are representative of the majority of Muslims, I still would strongly disagree with your text I tackled in the previous paragraphs which suggests otherwise.

Do you know what the penalty for apostasy is as taught by 'moderate' Imams in THIS country ? Death. Forced religious teaching and indoctrination of the very young and impressionable is nothing short of child abuse. Talk to a few women born into muslim families about how they feel they are treated. Infact if you can find any talk especially to women born in Saudi Arabia. Wahhabism is particularly evil.

All religious teaching is the practice of telling lies to the very young, the vulnerable and the stupid. I'd personally like it all consigned to museums and history or preferably wiped from the face of the earth. Maybe it'll happen in the next few thousand years after the apocalypse.

Making sweeping statements such as 'moderate Imams support death for apostasy' is part of the problem in my opinion. Do they all? Do anything like all Muslims support it? Again the answers to both is no.

What you are doing in my view (which I STRONGLY disagree with) is writing off all Muslims who want to follow a peaceful interpretation of their faith just because a small minority support barbarous punishments and a much smaller minority perform barbarous actions. The many peaceful Muslims who I know and in one case have lived with would be shocked at the very idea that someone would generalise him as supporting such monstrous actions.

You talk about 'if I can talk to' somebody, but I'd spin that on its head and say if you actually talk to the many Muslims in this country who are good, kind and more liberal than you or even me then you may change your views too.

Have a listen to this.

Apostasy = Death penalty

All of the 1.6 billions Muslims in the world must have spoken with their lips closed in that video.

Impressive feat that it didn't create more of an echo.

It's what ALL the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world were taught as impressionable and vulnerable kids. You do accept that right?

Hitch wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

Hitch wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

Hitch wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

Well whether they should subsidies and tax-breaks is another debate altogether, but those who DO want to practise their religion peacefully (which, even you must surely admit is the overwhelming majority) should be able to do so even if you don't agree with the principle of it.

Again, you say that Islam's followers refuse point blank to reform. If we are to take it that most Muslims despise ISIS and jihadists (and why the heck wouldn't they because Muslims are the number one victims of jihadists) then why exactly does their religion need reforming if the vast majority of people practise it in a peaceful way anyway.

The people who need reforming or preferably being locked up forever are the jihadists. And whilst I know that you surely can't really think that jihadists are representative of the majority of Muslims, I still would strongly disagree with your text I tackled in the previous paragraphs which suggests otherwise.

Do you know what the penalty for apostasy is as taught by 'moderate' Imams in THIS country ? Death. Forced religious teaching and indoctrination of the very young and impressionable is nothing short of child abuse. Talk to a few women born into muslim families about how they feel they are treated. Infact if you can find any talk especially to women born in Saudi Arabia. Wahhabism is particularly evil.

All religious teaching is the practice of telling lies to the very young, the vulnerable and the stupid. I'd personally like it all consigned to museums and history or preferably wiped from the face of the earth. Maybe it'll happen in the next few thousand years after the apocalypse.

Making sweeping statements such as 'moderate Imams support death for apostasy' is part of the problem in my opinion. Do they all? Do anything like all Muslims support it? Again the answers to both is no.

What you are doing in my view (which I STRONGLY disagree with) is writing off all Muslims who want to follow a peaceful interpretation of their faith just because a small minority support barbarous punishments and a much smaller minority perform barbarous actions. The many peaceful Muslims who I know and in one case have lived with would be shocked at the very idea that someone would generalise him as supporting such monstrous actions.

You talk about 'if I can talk to' somebody, but I'd spin that on its head and say if you actually talk to the many Muslims in this country who are good, kind and more liberal than you or even me then you may change your views too.

Have a listen to this.

Apostasy = Death penalty

All of the 1.6 billions Muslims in the world must have spoken with their lips closed in that video.

Impressive feat that it didn't create more of an echo.

It's what ALL the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world were taught as impressionable and vulnerable kids. You do accept that right?

Absolute bullshit mate, I've traveled in Muslim countries, most Muslims are ordinary folk, very devout but no more likely than go on a jihad than you or I. All this bullshit doesn't help the situation at all.

GreenSam wrote:

Les Miserable wrote:

The problem with islam is that many of the so called moderates are only moderate when being interviewed by the press or news channels, in reality they turn a blind eye to or even support the more extreme elements of their so called peace loving religion. University indoctrinated liberalism forcefed to the likes of Greensam only serves to exacerbate the problem and they end up becoming apologists for a narrow minded and often barbaric cult, however, how often do you hear those same people questioning the treatment of muslim women by muslim men or by countries like Saudi Arabia where they are treated worse than second class citizens?

And maybe some of the moderates (as scary as it may be to you to think of a Muslim as anything other than a bogeyman) genuinely hold the opinions that they hold. Where's your proof that they all turn a blind eye? What about the actions of prominent Muslims writers such as Mehdi Hassan or Maajid Nawaz who have written on many occasions about challenging the more unsavoury characters within their faith?

And don't talk to me about university indoctrinated liberalism. For one thing, I ain't no liberal. For another thing, I had my views before university. But they were only solidified by actually going to a city that was a lot more diverse than Plymouth and seeing that the Muslims I met there were not all part of one big incestuous community in which everybody knows the business of everybody else like you seem to imply is the case. None of them wanted to chop off my head, either.

Levels of anti-Muslim prejudice are actually lower in highly populated Muslim areas. There's a reason for that and it's because people who don't actually know Muslims tend to assume that they are all either extremists or enablers of extremists. This could not be further from the truth.

1...I'm not scared by muslims or bogeymen.

2...I said many, not all.

3...Where's your proof that "many" don't turn a blind eye?

4...You most definitely are a wet behind the ears, liberal, know it all imo.

Hitch,

I don't believe that no because those who don't have such extreme interpretations in the first place are highly unlikely to pass those interpretations on to their kids.

I do have some sympathy with you on this. I do think that kids should be encouraged to questions and I believe that defining a child by faith is wrong until they are old enough to decide or otherwise for themselves. One of the few points I do agree with Richard Dawkins on is that the term 'Muslim child' or 'Christian child' is as logically flawed as 'structuralist child' or 'Marxist child'. Children cannot be defined by the religious beliefs of their parents and nor (I apply this to all religions) should they be force fed it as absolute fact. I have a sneaky feeling that you and I are not so really far detached as you might think on certain issues, Hitch.

What I take real issue with is the idea that just because a small minority advocate heinous actions, and a much smaller minority actually perform heinous actions, that you can in any way pre-judge or write off 23% of the world's population just because of that. All of the muslims that I have ever met or spoken to both in person or online are completely normal people with normal views and in no slight way resemble the extremist monsters of ISIS or the minority of extremism apologetics. They're just normal folk like you and I who happen to believe in Allah.

That's why I find quote marks around 'moderate' Muslims, as if you don't believe that they really exist to be so deeply problematic.

Les Miserable wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

Les Miserable wrote:

The problem with islam is that many of the so called moderates are only moderate when being interviewed by the press or news channels, in reality they turn a blind eye to or even support the more extreme elements of their so called peace loving religion. University indoctrinated liberalism forcefed to the likes of Greensam only serves to exacerbate the problem and they end up becoming apologists for a narrow minded and often barbaric cult, however, how often do you hear those same people questioning the treatment of muslim women by muslim men or by countries like Saudi Arabia where they are treated worse than second class citizens?

And maybe some of the moderates (as scary as it may be to you to think of a Muslim as anything other than a bogeyman) genuinely hold the opinions that they hold. Where's your proof that they all turn a blind eye? What about the actions of prominent Muslims writers such as Mehdi Hassan or Maajid Nawaz who have written on many occasions about challenging the more unsavoury characters within their faith?

And don't talk to me about university indoctrinated liberalism. For one thing, I ain't no liberal. For another thing, I had my views before university. But they were only solidified by actually going to a city that was a lot more diverse than Plymouth and seeing that the Muslims I met there were not all part of one big incestuous community in which everybody knows the business of everybody else like you seem to imply is the case. None of them wanted to chop off my head, either.

Levels of anti-Muslim prejudice are actually lower in highly populated Muslim areas. There's a reason for that and it's because people who don't actually know Muslims tend to assume that they are all either extremists or enablers of extremists. This could not be further from the truth.

1...I'm not scared by muslims or bogeymen.

2...I said many, not all.

3...Where's your proof that "many" don't turn a blind eye?

4...You most definitely are a wet behind the ears, liberal, know it all imo.

1) Well you sure seem like it to me

2) Numbers?

3) You're the one doing the accusing. If someone who shared the same faith, family or whatever as you committed a crme, then you'd need a bit more than scare myths to be convicted of turning a blind eye to that crime. The burden of proof is on the accuser. Innocent until proven guilty.

4) I'm a socialist, not a liberal.

GreenSam wrote:

Hitch,

I don't believe that no because those who don't have such extreme interpretations in the first place are highly unlikely to pass those interpretations on to their kids.

I do have some sympathy with you on this. I do think that kids should be encouraged to questions and I believe that defining a child by faith is wrong until they are old enough to decide or otherwise for themselves. One of the few points I do agree with Richard Dawkins on is that the term 'Muslim child' or 'Christian child' is as logically flawed as 'structuralist child' or 'Marxist child'. Children cannot be defined by the religious beliefs of their parents and nor (I apply this to all religions) should they be force fed it as absolute fact. I have a sneaky feeling that you and I are not so really far detached as you might think on certain issues, Hitch.

What I take real issue with is the idea that just because a small minority advocate heinous actions, and a much smaller minority actually perform heinous actions, that you can in any way pre-judge or write off 23% of the world's population just because of that. All of the muslims that I have ever met or spoken to both in person or online are completely normal people with normal views and in no slight way resemble the extremist monsters of ISIS or the minority of extremism apologetics. They're just normal folk like you and I who happen to believe in Allah.

That's why I find quote marks around 'moderate' Muslims, as if you don't believe that they really exist to be so deeply problematic.

Sam - the Qur'an is not open to any interpretation. It is the final and unalterable word of God/Allah. And EVERY muslim child is taught the same thing in every country that has a mosque. The good news is that some better educated in western countries do not hold to these teachings - mainly women who have escaped.

So you keep saying but how do you explain the fact that the overwhelming majority of muslims (that includes those who still practise their faith) practise it in an entirely different way to the jihadists and extremists.

Ironically enough, it's only the extremists who say that nothing is open to interpretation. If you are determined to see the extremists as 'the norm' then you will believe them when they say that interpretation is not a word that any muslims use. But they are wrong. The many different schools of Muslim scholars and the many different ways that Islam is practised across the world clearly deny that.

Why are the brave Kurds (amongst many other Muslims) fighting ISIS and standing in solidarity with the exiled Christian community if, as you say, there is no grey area. In fact, there is nothing BUT grey area. There is shedloads of the stuff. Islam is complex and multi-faceted. The way in which Islam has manifested in the world simply cannot be summed up in one sentence. Probably not even in one book. If you are determined to see it as black and white then you will continue to do so but the facts don't back this up. Muslims in both the West AND the Arab world and elsewhere continue to interpret Islam yet still practise their faith in a number of very different and diverse ways. Almost all of which are not murderous or terrorising.

Iggy wrote:

Hitch wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

Hitch wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

Hitch wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

Well whether they should subsidies and tax-breaks is another debate altogether, but those who DO want to practise their religion peacefully (which, even you must surely admit is the overwhelming majority) should be able to do so even if you don't agree with the principle of it.

Again, you say that Islam's followers refuse point blank to reform. If we are to take it that most Muslims despise ISIS and jihadists (and why the heck wouldn't they because Muslims are the number one victims of jihadists) then why exactly does their religion need reforming if the vast majority of people practise it in a peaceful way anyway.

The people who need reforming or preferably being locked up forever are the jihadists. And whilst I know that you surely can't really think that jihadists are representative of the majority of Muslims, I still would strongly disagree with your text I tackled in the previous paragraphs which suggests otherwise.

Do you know what the penalty for apostasy is as taught by 'moderate' Imams in THIS country ? Death. Forced religious teaching and indoctrination of the very young and impressionable is nothing short of child abuse. Talk to a few women born into muslim families about how they feel they are treated. Infact if you can find any talk especially to women born in Saudi Arabia. Wahhabism is particularly evil.

All religious teaching is the practice of telling lies to the very young, the vulnerable and the stupid. I'd personally like it all consigned to museums and history or preferably wiped from the face of the earth. Maybe it'll happen in the next few thousand years after the apocalypse.

Making sweeping statements such as 'moderate Imams support death for apostasy' is part of the problem in my opinion. Do they all? Do anything like all Muslims support it? Again the answers to both is no.

What you are doing in my view (which I STRONGLY disagree with) is writing off all Muslims who want to follow a peaceful interpretation of their faith just because a small minority support barbarous punishments and a much smaller minority perform barbarous actions. The many peaceful Muslims who I know and in one case have lived with would be shocked at the very idea that someone would generalise him as supporting such monstrous actions.

You talk about 'if I can talk to' somebody, but I'd spin that on its head and say if you actually talk to the many Muslims in this country who are good, kind and more liberal than you or even me then you may change your views too.

Have a listen to this.

Apostasy = Death penalty

All of the 1.6 billions Muslims in the world must have spoken with their lips closed in that video.

Impressive feat that it didn't create more of an echo.

It's what ALL the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world were taught as impressionable and vulnerable kids. You do accept that right?

Absolute bullshit mate, I've traveled in Muslim countries, most Muslims are ordinary folk, very devout but no more likely than go on a jihad than you or I. All this bullshit doesn't help the situation at all.

You are confusing Jihad with apostasy which is what was being discussed specifically here. And every muslim child is taught what the punishment is for daring to leave or renounce the faith.

GreenSam wrote:

So you keep saying but how do you explain the fact that the overwhelming majority of muslims (that includes those who still practise their faith) practise it in an entirely different way to the jihadists and extremists.

Ironically enough, it's only the extremists who say that nothing is open to interpretation. If you are determined to see the extremists as 'the norm' then you will believe them when they say that interpretation is not a word that any muslims use. But they are wrong. The many different schools of Muslim scholars and the many different ways that Islam is practised across the world clearly deny that.

Why are the brave Kurds (amongst many other Muslims) fighting ISIS and standing in solidarity with the exiled Christian community if, as you say, there is no grey area. In fact, there is nothing BUT grey area. There is shedloads of the stuff. Islam is complex and multi-faceted. The way in which Islam has manifested in the world simply cannot be summed up in one sentence. Probably not even in one book. If you are determined to see it as black and white then you will continue to do so but the facts don't back this up. Muslims in both the West AND the Arab world and elsewhere continue to interpret Islam yet still practise their faith in a number of very different and diverse ways. Almost all of which are not murderous or terrorising.

You sum up perfectly how and why religion poisons everything.

Why is that? I've just demonstrated using countless examples (I could probably provide more) why religion can be either a harmful thing or a benign thing depending on who practises it, have you given up arguing that point? I've demonstrated that many Muslims both practise and preach a benign form of Islam.

I don't deny that religion or religious indoctrination doesn't do a lot of bad in the world because at times, it does.

But the bit that really depresses me is the continued scare quotes around 'moderate Muslims' as though you think they don't exist or are only faking it. You may not like religion generally, but they DO exist.

GreenSam wrote:

Why is that? I've just demonstrated using countless examples (I could probably provide more) why religion can be either a harmful thing or a benign thing depending on who practises it, have you given up arguing that point? I've demonstrated that many Muslims both practise and preach a benign form of Islam.

I don't deny that religion or religious indoctrination doesn't do a lot of bad in the world because at times, it does.

But the bit that really depresses me is the continued scare quotes around 'moderate Muslims' as though you think they don't exist or are only faking it. You may not like religion generally, but they DO exist.

Because you're simply debating levels and shades of the same delusion, ancient myth and lies. Religion infects and undermines our basic integrity of truth and reason.

Well if you're going at it now from a purely philosophical point of view about the overall futility of religion then that's another debate altogether.

But the points I was making about the diversity of Muslim opinion and faith-practise still stand. Anyway, on that note I think we've reached a natural impasse for this debate for one night. Plus I'm tired and am off to bed. Goodnight.

Tuṣbiḥ 'alā khayr

Hitch wrote:

Iggy wrote:

Hitch wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

Hitch wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

Hitch wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

Well whether they should subsidies and tax-breaks is another debate altogether, but those who DO want to practise their religion peacefully (which, even you must surely admit is the overwhelming majority) should be able to do so even if you don't agree with the principle of it.

Again, you say that Islam's followers refuse point blank to reform. If we are to take it that most Muslims despise ISIS and jihadists (and why the heck wouldn't they because Muslims are the number one victims of jihadists) then why exactly does their religion need reforming if the vast majority of people practise it in a peaceful way anyway.

The people who need reforming or preferably being locked up forever are the jihadists. And whilst I know that you surely can't really think that jihadists are representative of the majority of Muslims, I still would strongly disagree with your text I tackled in the previous paragraphs which suggests otherwise.

Do you know what the penalty for apostasy is as taught by 'moderate' Imams in THIS country ? Death. Forced religious teaching and indoctrination of the very young and impressionable is nothing short of child abuse. Talk to a few women born into muslim families about how they feel they are treated. Infact if you can find any talk especially to women born in Saudi Arabia. Wahhabism is particularly evil.

All religious teaching is the practice of telling lies to the very young, the vulnerable and the stupid. I'd personally like it all consigned to museums and history or preferably wiped from the face of the earth. Maybe it'll happen in the next few thousand years after the apocalypse.

Making sweeping statements such as 'moderate Imams support death for apostasy' is part of the problem in my opinion. Do they all? Do anything like all Muslims support it? Again the answers to both is no.

What you are doing in my view (which I STRONGLY disagree with) is writing off all Muslims who want to follow a peaceful interpretation of their faith just because a small minority support barbarous punishments and a much smaller minority perform barbarous actions. The many peaceful Muslims who I know and in one case have lived with would be shocked at the very idea that someone would generalise him as supporting such monstrous actions.

You talk about 'if I can talk to' somebody, but I'd spin that on its head and say if you actually talk to the many Muslims in this country who are good, kind and more liberal than you or even me then you may change your views too.

Have a listen to this.

Apostasy = Death penalty

All of the 1.6 billions Muslims in the world must have spoken with their lips closed in that video.

Impressive feat that it didn't create more of an echo.

It's what ALL the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world were taught as impressionable and vulnerable kids. You do accept that right?

Absolute bullshit mate, I've traveled in Muslim countries, most Muslims are ordinary folk, very devout but no more likely than go on a jihad than you or I. All this bullshit doesn't help the situation at all.

You are confusing Jihad with apostasy which is what was being discussed specifically here. And every muslim child is taught what the punishment is for daring to leave or renounce the faith.

You are taking a single point, twisting it to fit your agenda that Islam is evil, it is bullshit and you are a racist for saying it. In doing so your viewpoint is as extreme as the extremists you condenm.

Is it too early to get the popcorn out?

Iggy wrote:

Hitch wrote:

Iggy wrote:

Hitch wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

Hitch wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

Hitch wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

Well whether they should subsidies and tax-breaks is another debate altogether, but those who DO want to practise their religion peacefully (which, even you must surely admit is the overwhelming majority) should be able to do so even if you don't agree with the principle of it.

Again, you say that Islam's followers refuse point blank to reform. If we are to take it that most Muslims despise ISIS and jihadists (and why the heck wouldn't they because Muslims are the number one victims of jihadists) then why exactly does their religion need reforming if the vast majority of people practise it in a peaceful way anyway.

The people who need reforming or preferably being locked up forever are the jihadists. And whilst I know that you surely can't really think that jihadists are representative of the majority of Muslims, I still would strongly disagree with your text I tackled in the previous paragraphs which suggests otherwise.

Do you know what the penalty for apostasy is as taught by 'moderate' Imams in THIS country ? Death. Forced religious teaching and indoctrination of the very young and impressionable is nothing short of child abuse. Talk to a few women born into muslim families about how they feel they are treated. Infact if you can find any talk especially to women born in Saudi Arabia. Wahhabism is particularly evil.

All religious teaching is the practice of telling lies to the very young, the vulnerable and the stupid. I'd personally like it all consigned to museums and history or preferably wiped from the face of the earth. Maybe it'll happen in the next few thousand years after the apocalypse.

Making sweeping statements such as 'moderate Imams support death for apostasy' is part of the problem in my opinion. Do they all? Do anything like all Muslims support it? Again the answers to both is no.

What you are doing in my view (which I STRONGLY disagree with) is writing off all Muslims who want to follow a peaceful interpretation of their faith just because a small minority support barbarous punishments and a much smaller minority perform barbarous actions. The many peaceful Muslims who I know and in one case have lived with would be shocked at the very idea that someone would generalise him as supporting such monstrous actions.

You talk about 'if I can talk to' somebody, but I'd spin that on its head and say if you actually talk to the many Muslims in this country who are good, kind and more liberal than you or even me then you may change your views too.

Have a listen to this.

Apostasy = Death penalty

All of the 1.6 billions Muslims in the world must have spoken with their lips closed in that video.

Impressive feat that it didn't create more of an echo.

It's what ALL the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world were taught as impressionable and vulnerable kids. You do accept that right?

Absolute bullshit mate, I've traveled in Muslim countries, most Muslims are ordinary folk, very devout but no more likely than go on a jihad than you or I. All this bullshit doesn't help the situation at all.

You are confusing Jihad with apostasy which is what was being discussed specifically here. And every muslim child is taught what the punishment is for daring to leave or renounce the faith.

You are taking a single point, twisting it to fit your agenda that Islam is evil, it is bullshit and you are a racist for saying it. In doing so your viewpoint is as extreme as the extremists you condenm.

Sadly you are talking utter bullshit because you haven't read the exchanges properly. Nothing I have said could possibly be construed as racist. We are talking about a religious cult that transcends race. You do understand that don't you or do you need it explained and clarified in greater detail?

I despise all religion and have said so clearly and repeatedly. Islam is the only main mono-theistic religion that preaches death to all apostates - that kind of intimidation is evil preaching. Is that clear for you?

I'm still calling bullshit, how about the references in the bible about people being killed, smote down, drowned ect. Does that make all Christians murderers or are you able to differentiate between modern day living (as most of the 1.6 bn Muslims do on this planet) and a piece of 2000 year old text in this case? The atrocities have and do get condemned by Muslim groups and there have even been a few marches. Is does get support from some Muslims and in the countries we have bombed the shite out of in the past decade or two especially so, I wonder why that is? It's funny but I remember warning against war in the middle east as this would be the result.
You sir are a racist and don't deserve any more of my time, be very careful how you fight your campaign on here as others have been banned before for similar things,  you could even be charged with inciting racial hatred IMO, no better than any fanatic street mullah, go travel a bit please.
Anyway, ones mans Aposty is another mans heresy, do you remember what we did to heretics?