Walrond

Argyle Fans' Trust wrote:

Greenskin wrote:

Sunday Indy today,Nigel Walrond,the alleged Argyle expert columnist;

"....some of the unbelievable criticism Brent has received from a number of supporters over his plans to build a 10m grandstand that would give a caacity of around 18000. I personaly do not understand the need for a 20000 capacity the AFTWG has recently talked about....Argyle struggled to get anywhere near that even in the heady days in the CCC under Ian Holloway."
"....if Argyle do get back to the championship one day and look like they might finally take the step into the premiership,then that is the time to review the capacity.In the meantime,Pilgrims supporters should be grateful that they have an owner who seems serious about replacing the dilapidated grandstand with a structure that can help bring some much needed match day and non match day income into the club".

Don't need you to tell me what or who to be grateful to,so get lost Walrond.

- £10 million. This figure has been quoted numerous times, yet we have not seen any costings to substantiate those figures

- The Horseshoe has a capacity of 12,600. The new Grandstand design is for 4,800. Total 17,400. Less segregation and media seats, closer to 16,800.

- Some attendances during our rise from League 2 under Luggy to the Championship, in the 19-20k+ bracket:

24/04/04 - QPR - 19888 - In League 2. capacity then was 19888. We have no way of knowing how many wanted to attend but couldn't get a ticket,
08/05/04 - Colchester - 19868 - See comments for QPR game above.
14/09/04 - Leeds - 20555
30/10/04 - West Ham - 20220
26/12/04 - QPR - 19535
08/01/05 - Everton - 20112
08/05/05 - Leicester - 19199
11/03/06 - Watford - 20652

A 16,500+ attendance was achieved on another 17 occasions.

If Nigel Walrond is reading this and would like any further help in researching some FACTS for his next OPINION piece, we'd be happy to help.

AFT...hang on there.you are a bit like this new city bus outfit who are cherry picking bus services all over Plymouth to back up their claims as to why they are the town's finest and most efficient service..They don't tell you about all the loss making services that they have "conveniently" dumped. Its a bit like the FT index,in that they too dump their lossmakers to give a good impresssion,but I digresss.There were many many days in the CCC where Argyle barely shifted twelve thousand through the HP turnstyles.In the interests of fairness,openess and honesty, however you seem to have forgotten those days,and attendances.Why not go through a full season,,,,,,,,,

greensleeves wrote:

Argyle Fans' Trust wrote:

Greenskin wrote:

Sunday Indy today,Nigel Walrond,the alleged Argyle expert columnist;

"....some of the unbelievable criticism Brent has received from a number of supporters over his plans to build a 10m grandstand that would give a caacity of around 18000. I personaly do not understand the need for a 20000 capacity the AFTWG has recently talked about....Argyle struggled to get anywhere near that even in the heady days in the CCC under Ian Holloway."
"....if Argyle do get back to the championship one day and look like they might finally take the step into the premiership,then that is the time to review the capacity.In the meantime,Pilgrims supporters should be grateful that they have an owner who seems serious about replacing the dilapidated grandstand with a structure that can help bring some much needed match day and non match day income into the club".

Don't need you to tell me what or who to be grateful to,so get lost Walrond.

- £10 million. This figure has been quoted numerous times, yet we have not seen any costings to substantiate those figures

- The Horseshoe has a capacity of 12,600. The new Grandstand design is for 4,800. Total 17,400. Less segregation and media seats, closer to 16,800.

- Some attendances during our rise from League 2 under Luggy to the Championship, in the 19-20k+ bracket:

24/04/04 - QPR - 19888 - In League 2. capacity then was 19888. We have no way of knowing how many wanted to attend but couldn't get a ticket,
08/05/04 - Colchester - 19868 - See comments for QPR game above.
14/09/04 - Leeds - 20555
30/10/04 - West Ham - 20220
26/12/04 - QPR - 19535
08/01/05 - Everton - 20112
08/05/05 - Leicester - 19199
11/03/06 - Watford - 20652

A 16,500+ attendance was achieved on another 17 occasions.

If Nigel Walrond is reading this and would like any further help in researching some FACTS for his next OPINION piece, we'd be happy to help.

AFT...hang on there.you are a bit like this new city bus outfit who are cherry picking bus services all over Plymouth to back up their claims as to why they are the town's finest and most efficient service..They don't tell you about all the loss making services that they have "conveniently" dumped. Its a bit like the FT index,in that they too dump their lossmakers to give a good impresssion,but I digresss.There were many many days in the CCC where Argyle barely shifted twelve thousand through the HP turnstyles.In the interests of fairness,openess and honesty, however you seem to have forgotten those days,and attendances.Why not go through a full season,,,,,,,,,

Ok but attendances are up on what we used to get in this dogshit league, and we're at the ass end of the league. Surely if Brent's the man he'll have designs on us getting out of this league soon? If he hasn't then he should say so.

Plus after the last five or six years of utter crap, as soon as things turn around all the glory hunting plastics will be out in force. Over 13,000 against shitty when we're bottom of the league would surely be bigger when we're top? And that's in division 4.

Webby last year had t-shirts commissioned for the battle of the ports against pompey, where he also wanted Argyle fans to join in with play up pompey, for a league cup first round match on a Tuesday night against their kids. Next season could see us playing them on a bank holiday and a top of the table clash. How many would go then? And this is in division 4 so God knows how many glory hunting plastics with less than 10,000 miles clocked up this season would start going in division 3, where pompey will surely be next season with their ambition, so we could have the same bank holiday situation but in the league higher.

Tell me to stop when I'm being fanciful though. If you believe Mr Brent doesn't give a flying feck what league we're in and won't be handing anyone the budget capable of moving upwards just say won't you?

You see I don't mind the "17,000 is ample" argument if as long as people admit that it is ample because Brent's only interested in the other developments so we won't need any bigger, but according to the Pasoti mouthpieces Brent can walk on water and the good times are just around the corner.

If that's the case then the capacity isn't enough so get it feckin built to a capacity to reflect the fact that the sun shines out of JB's ass and he's going to lead the team he loves to the promised land.

Because the purpose of this particular exercise was to show that the report by Mr Walrond contained numerous factual inaccuracies. It was not to debate the wider context of attendances throughout the last 12 years.

He stated that Argyle struggled to get near that when we were in the Championship. Those figures show that to be inaccurate. even in League 2 when we won the title under Luggy there were two games which by any reasonable interpretation would have seen 20.000+ crowds if the stadium had been big enough. Even then, it wasn't.

He stated that the proposed capacity would be close to 18,000. It isn't.

He's also stated that the cost of the Grandstand would be £10 million. No-one, to date, has produced any costings to back that up. We don't know how that figure is arrived at. Does it, for example, include a proportion of the cost of building the underground car-park, since that car park will be used by club officials and players?

So yes, there were attendances lower than the ones we have outlined. But what we outlined was designed to show the factual inaccuracies in Mr Walrond's piece.

Why don't the AFT send their post to Mr. Walrond and ask him to comment?

"I hate to be corny ....... BUT ......" You cheeky fecker!

Now that the facts are out there for all to see, I have changed my opinion. JB is the new JC. Any atheists out there can hold on to their beliefs. All the sandal wearers got wrong were the correct initials. And he entered the temple, throwing tables over, shouting the money lenders have no place here. Nickkk, are you listening?

All ATD'ers are free to correct me. Please, please do so!

Steve, the original corny.

Actually I heard that the car park was going to be run by a national car park operator, so the car park would pay for itself.

Apparently ( so I've been told ) PAFC are negotiating with PCC to have some car parking spaces in the park and ride because they won't have any in the new car park.

Sounds ridiculous to me but that's what I was told.

Jock....yep surprisingly, considering we are in an economic recession, with money being tight and with argyles prices amongst some of the costliest in this division, that the attendances are beyond wildest dreams at 7000+ last season when we were barely getting 4000+.last time at this level under Kevin Hodges,and bearing in mind we were in a relegation slot for most of the season.So fair play to the current fanbase for sticking with the club,one in the eye for supporters of apethetic janners.We also have 5 local derbies next season,(Newport,Bristol Rovers,Exeter,Torquay and Portsmouth)I suspect one of those will be scheduled for HP during the August Bank Holiday weekend,which will draw a decent crowd,we shall see..So in a nutshell,the current capacity is way ample for the foreseeable future.I just think that a lot of you guys on here just like to pick fault with anything coming from Argyle towers.

cornysteve wrote:

"I hate to be corny ....... BUT ......" You cheeky fecker!

Now that the facts are out there for all to see, I have changed my opinion. JB is the new JC. Any atheists out there can hold on to their beliefs. All the sandal wearers got wrong were the correct initials. And he entered the temple, throwing tables over, shouting the money lenders have no place here. Nickkk, are you listening?

All ATD'ers are free to correct me. Please, please do so!

Steve, the original corny.

I'm not with you there Steve... you'll have to explain your point.
I am dead against these developments. Are you ?

greensleeves wrote:

Jock....yep surprisingly, considering we are in an economic recession, with money being tight and with argyles prices amongst some of the costliest in this division, that the attendances are beyond wildest dreams at 7000+ last season when we were barely getting 4000+.last time at this level under Kevin Hodges,and bearing in mind we were in a relegation slot for most of the season.So fair play to the current fanbase for sticking with the club,one in the eye for supporters of apethetic janners.We also have 5 local derbies next season,(Newport,Bristol Rovers,Exeter,Torquay and Portsmouth)I suspect one of those will be scheduled for HP during the August Bank Holiday weekend,which will draw a decent crowd,we shall see..So in a nutshell,the current capacity is way ample for the foreseeable future.I just think that a lot of you guys on here just like to pick fault with anything coming from Argyle towers.

Fank,,,,,,,,you,,,,for yor,,,,valable valiaable valuable,,,,,,,,,,,,,in,put.

greensleeves wrote:

AFT...hang on there.you are a bit like this new city bus outfit who are cherry picking bus services all over Plymouth to back up their claims as to why they are the town's finest and most efficient service..They don't tell you about all the loss making services that they have "conveniently" dumped. Its a bit like the FT index,in that they too dump their lossmakers to give a good impresssion,but I digresss.There were many many days in the CCC where Argyle barely shifted twelve thousand through the HP turnstyles.In the interests of fairness,openess and honesty, however you seem to have forgotten those days,and attendances.Why not go through a full season,,,,,,,,,

Your determination to see Argyle short changed with this completely substandard 'stand' is quite frankly baffling. Why do you defend brents plan so vehemently particularly when knowing full well (through Akkeron's own admission) it wil be prohibitively expensive to extend the Horseshoe? Every Argyle fan should be up in arms that we're being fobbed off with a stand that leaves Home Park with around 3,000 lower capacity than when the Mayflower Terrace temporary seating was in place. Is it only praaaaaper faaans that want to see Argyle condemned to lower league status forever with no hope of ever breaking through the glass ceiling?

greensleeves wrote:

Jock....yep surprisingly, considering we are in an economic recession, with money being tight and with argyles prices amongst some of the costliest in this division, that the attendances are beyond wildest dreams at 7000+ last season when we were barely getting 4000+.last time at this level under Kevin Hodges,and bearing in mind we were in a relegation slot for most of the season.So fair play to the current fanbase for sticking with the club,one in the eye for supporters of apethetic janners.We also have 5 local derbies next season,(Newport,Bristol Rovers,Exeter,Torquay and Portsmouth)I suspect one of those will be scheduled for HP during the August Bank Holiday weekend,which will draw a decent crowd,we shall see..So in a nutshell,the current capacity is way ample for the foreseeable future.I just think that a lot of you guys on here just like to pick fault with anything coming from Argyle towers.

So you're saying the capacity will be fine because Brent ain't going to be providing the budget to give Sheridan the chance to take us out of this league then? If we can get 13k at the bottom of division 4 then it follows that we will exceed that if successful. You can't use previous years attendances as a barometer if we're smashing previous averages whilst bottom of the league.

Stop blindly backing something clearly cobbled together because it's a necessary part of the grand scheme of things. The stand is just an inconvenience to Brent, whereas the rest of the development is well thought out to maximise his profits.

Cinema goers, hotel guests and ice skaters are clearly more important than Argyle fans or people who use central park regularly.

The details about the plans keep changing every time Brent or his mouthpieces open their gobs. If James Brent can honestly show that the stand will bring in the kind of figures he is spouting, including Nikkkkkkkk's sponsorship deal obviously, can show details of what else is included for the club, for instance a bigger better far post club, new venue for the apparently hugely popular fanfests, can provide accurate and truthful details of the access road and it's impact on the surrounding areas, especially for fans or customers as we now seem to be, and can put some meat on the bones of his easily expandable capacity plan for home park, then I might shut up. Until then I don't see how you, Webb, Newell, Postey, X-isle and the other ass-lickers can have deduced it's a good deal for the club.

worried of penzance wrote:

I hate to be corny ....... BUT ..... it is the capitalist press, and Brent is a capitalist.
What else do people expect ? There's a war on influence going on where the internet is concerned.
I haven't regularly bought any newspaper in years and years, maybe 5 papers in 15 years, since the advent of the Web. I don't need crosswords any more and prefer my admittedly needed weather forecast, media listings, and lie of the land from a community resource that publishes without too much bias toward the squire that owns the road out of the town.
I was in Torrington yesterday, Read their delightfully parochial Gazette in a delightful café that served a full veggie breakfast for £1.95 and a cup of tea for 55pence ! And I have to say the food was well acceptable.

Anyway, according to the Gazzette, apparently one of the Tory boys' planned "free schools" paid for by the taxpayer in the Torrington area got the thumbs down from the planning committee due to inadequate traffic provisions amongst other things. There is hope. These people are in a hurry. Who knows what might happen here when the full deal is published ?

Totnes has its pound and Old mike trimming hedges but I'd be surprised if Torrington had a free press.Local press isn't anything to do with news, The few scribes that are left are more concerned about their jobs. See how poor Rupert was blacklisted for backing the wrong horse.

I hated history in school and now I remember why

Quote :

I personaly do not understand the need for a 20000 capacity the AFTWG has recently talked about....Argyle struggled to get anywhere near that even in the heady days in the CCC under Ian Holloway."

It simply doesn't tell you all the facts. The 'heady' days under Ian Holloway were totally ruined by the property bollox. It was well known there was no money in the pot to keep the team together and the firesale was inevitable. Holloway was on his own trying to sell a promotion push as the owners would only ever talk about P2 being imminent, the owners showed no interest in Holloway's team. Full capacity would never have prevented £8m worth of player sales. The fact the author of this nonsense has totally ignored there was a consortium willing to put the team first but were pushed aside in favour of some Japanese chap we had never heard of has left him totally discredited.

That's the real history!

Quite aside from the belief that we underachieved in the Holloway years and the opinion that if we'd have pushed on in terms of gates if we showed signs of really going for it (which I agree with), the article is poorly written and lacking in basic facts.

As the AFT have said, once you add 4,800 to 12,600 and subtract segregation you will have at the very MAXIMUM a capacity of 17,000. Probably less. So it's in fact not 'just one or two games' that have ever gone above the capacity of this new stand which I keep hearing, but it is in fact between 20-25 games from Luggy's first promotion season up to around 2007. 20-25 games is not to be sniffed at, at all. The extra income from that which we will miss out on from a 17,000 stadium will stretch into the hundreds of thousands.

So, our financial situation if/when we return to the Championship...these are the factors to consider:

-We will be losing a lot of income (probably hundreds of thousands) from the stand's lower capacity than last time as we won't be able to get so many paying customers in which is money down from what we had last time.
- We will owe money to historic creditors, James Brent and the Green Taverners which we did not owe last time.
-We will be gaining only £1million a year (if that) on top of what we did last time from sponsorship/conferences/banquets/the school.

Yet in spite of all that it's seriously being espoused that when we get into the Championship the club will find £2.5 million to add 2,500 seats of restricted view to the Devonport End over one Summer, just like that? The horseshoe extension will happen on the 12th of Never.

Quite simply, we need a bigger Mayflower than the proposed stand. Not to build one will go down in history as one of the biggest watershed moments of failure and under-ambition even by Argyle's standards.

greensleeves wrote:

Argyle Fans' Trust wrote:

Greenskin wrote:

Sunday Indy today,Nigel Walrond,the alleged Argyle expert columnist;

"....some of the unbelievable criticism Brent has received from a number of supporters over his plans to build a 10m grandstand that would give a caacity of around 18000. I personaly do not understand the need for a 20000 capacity the AFTWG has recently talked about....Argyle struggled to get anywhere near that even in the heady days in the CCC under Ian Holloway."
"....if Argyle do get back to the championship one day and look like they might finally take the step into the premiership,then that is the time to review the capacity.In the meantime,Pilgrims supporters should be grateful that they have an owner who seems serious about replacing the dilapidated grandstand with a structure that can help bring some much needed match day and non match day income into the club".

Don't need you to tell me what or who to be grateful to,so get lost Walrond.

- £10 million. This figure has been quoted numerous times, yet we have not seen any costings to substantiate those figures

- The Horseshoe has a capacity of 12,600. The new Grandstand design is for 4,800. Total 17,400. Less segregation and media seats, closer to 16,800.

- Some attendances during our rise from League 2 under Luggy to the Championship, in the 19-20k+ bracket:

24/04/04 - QPR - 19888 - In League 2. capacity then was 19888. We have no way of knowing how many wanted to attend but couldn't get a ticket,
08/05/04 - Colchester - 19868 - See comments for QPR game above.
14/09/04 - Leeds - 20555
30/10/04 - West Ham - 20220
26/12/04 - QPR - 19535
08/01/05 - Everton - 20112
08/05/05 - Leicester - 19199
11/03/06 - Watford - 20652

A 16,500+ attendance was achieved on another 17 occasions.

If Nigel Walrond is reading this and would like any further help in researching some FACTS for his next OPINION piece, we'd be happy to help.

AFT...hang on there.you are a bit like this new city bus outfit who are cherry picking bus services all over Plymouth to back up their claims as to why they are the town's finest and most efficient service..They don't tell you about all the loss making services that they have "conveniently" dumped. Its a bit like the FT index,in that they too dump their lossmakers to give a good impresssion,but I digresss.There were many many days in the CCC where Argyle barely shifted twelve thousand through the HP turnstyles.In the interests of fairness,openess and honesty, however you seem to have forgotten those days,and attendances.Why not go through a full season,,,,,,,,,

And that brings us on to the other major factor in attendance figures for a club with as yet, no top flight exposure. We were on a par attendance wise with Norwich, Southampton and Ipswich. Lok how their fanbase has increased through spells in the top flight !
Then we have the 'new stadium', or in our case 'much improved' stadium effect, with room for relatively easy expansion. As at Swansea, Hull, Reading, Brighton, Cardiff etc.

Argyle's potential fanbase did not 'believe' and had nothing to inspire them.

Some of us knew what would happen a very long time ago if investment /new owners were not sought out, when our stock was high. It was inevitable and if Brent's plans go ahead, will be so again.

I keep hearing that should we get promoted to the Premiership then that is the time to increase the capacity.

How long does it take to build a new stand or extend an existing one?

With the close season getting shorter each year surely there isn't time is there?

We could be back in Division one by the time the work is completed or have I missed something?

gasser9 wrote:

I keep hearing that should we get promoted to the Premiership then that is the time to increase the capacity.

How long does it take to build a new stand or extend an existing one?

With the close season getting shorter each year surely there isn't time is there?

We could be back in Division one by the time the work is completed or have I missed something?

Apparently Plan A (the extension to the Devonport could be done in a relatively short space of time). However, if we get promoted through the play-offs, the amount of time it would take to get the contracting all sorted out and get the stand built...I have my severe doubts that it could be done in one Summer.

gasser9 wrote:

I keep hearing that should we get promoted to the Premiership then that is the time to increase the capacity.

How long does it take to build a new stand or extend an existing one?

With the close season getting shorter each year surely there isn't time is there?

We could be back in Division one by the time the work is completed or have I missed something?

Couple of points here - I don't think any of this will bother the present encumbant, won't be here by then!! Next problem is in the short term Mr Brent wants the club to be self sufficient asap, wants to reign in the loans - don't forget his bolstering at this point is a loan, not gift. This club could be in for it's longest spell in this god forsaken league - some fans on the other site are blinkered to where we are going and how long it will take!! Your view is however totally correct - there will be no time to add seats to the ground in anycase!!

For Worried of Penzance,

I totally oppose the awful developments. Probably wasn't sarcastic enough in my post, but I'm just bored with the Jesus Brent Superstar treatment that the local press give the man and his development. Basically everytime something appears in the local press it could have been written by one of the superfans on Pasoti.

Steve

GreenSam wrote:

gasser9 wrote:

I keep hearing that should we get promoted to the Premiership then that is the time to increase the capacity.

How long does it take to build a new stand or extend an existing one?

With the close season getting shorter each year surely there isn't time is there?

We could be back in Division one by the time the work is completed or have I missed something?

Apparently Plan A (the extension to the Devonport could be done in a relatively short space of time). However, if we get promoted through the play-offs, the amount of time it would take to get the contracting all sorted out and get the stand built...I have my severe doubts that it could be done in one Summer.

Don't forget to factor in the major consultation period for all those people who's slither of sea will disappear forever behind the new Devonport.

Surely the whole flaw with Brent's model of making the club sustainable is that the income from fans paying to see the matches is a major part of the clubs income, he has stated that seats soon pay for them selves, why would he want to limit that income?
I think that the answer to that one will be found in a field up the A38.

gasser9 wrote:

I keep hearing that should we get promoted to the Premiership then that is the time to increase the capacity.
How long does it take to build a new stand or extend an existing one?

With the close season getting shorter each year surely there isn't time is there?

We could be back in Division one by the time the work is completed or have I missed something?

Promotion to the premiership will be extremely unlikely with the new stand as it will not sustain championship football, so there'll be no chance of a promotion push to the premiership. The additional income from the hospitality bits of £1 million would cover about 5 weeks of wages at championship level (players on average of £10k/ week with a squad of 20 players).

GreenSam wrote:

Quite aside from the belief that we underachieved in the Holloway years and the opinion that if we'd have pushed on in terms of gates if we showed signs of really going for it (which I agree with), the article is poorly written and lacking in basic facts.

As the AFT have said, once you add 4,800 to 12,600 and subtract segregation you will have at the very MAXIMUM a capacity of 17,000. Probably less. So it's in fact not 'just one or two games' that have ever gone above the capacity of this new stand which I keep hearing, but it is in fact between 20-25 games from Luggy's first promotion season up to around 2007. 20-25 games is not to be sniffed at, at all. The extra income from that which we will miss out on from a 17,000 stadium will stretch into the hundreds of thousands.

So, our financial situation if/when we return to the Championship...these are the factors to consider:

-We will be losing a lot of income (probably hundreds of thousands) from the stand's lower capacity than last time as we won't be able to get so many paying customers in which is money down from what we had last time.
- We will owe money to historic creditors, James Brent and the Green Taverners which we did not owe last time.
-We will be gaining only £1million a year (if that) on top of what we did last time from sponsorship/conferences/banquets/the school.

Yet in spite of all that it's seriously being espoused that when we get into the Championship the club will find £2.5 million to add 2,500 seats of restricted view to the Devonport End over one Summer, just like that? The horseshoe extension will happen on the 12th of Never.

Quite simply, we need a bigger Mayflower than the proposed stand. Not to build one will go down in history as one of the biggest watershed moments of failure and under-ambition even by Argyle's standards.

Great post Sam and nail on head. Do you think you can convince the Brentites on the other side?

Pokesdown wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

Quite aside from the belief that we underachieved in the Holloway years and the opinion that if we'd have pushed on in terms of gates if we showed signs of really going for it (which I agree with), the article is poorly written and lacking in basic facts.

As the AFT have said, once you add 4,800 to 12,600 and subtract segregation you will have at the very MAXIMUM a capacity of 17,000. Probably less. So it's in fact not 'just one or two games' that have ever gone above the capacity of this new stand which I keep hearing, but it is in fact between 20-25 games from Luggy's first promotion season up to around 2007. 20-25 games is not to be sniffed at, at all. The extra income from that which we will miss out on from a 17,000 stadium will stretch into the hundreds of thousands.

So, our financial situation if/when we return to the Championship...these are the factors to consider:

-We will be losing a lot of income (probably hundreds of thousands) from the stand's lower capacity than last time as we won't be able to get so many paying customers in which is money down from what we had last time.
- We will owe money to historic creditors, James Brent and the Green Taverners which we did not owe last time.
-We will be gaining only £1million a year (if that) on top of what we did last time from sponsorship/conferences/banquets/the school.

Yet in spite of all that it's seriously being espoused that when we get into the Championship the club will find £2.5 million to add 2,500 seats of restricted view to the Devonport End over one Summer, just like that? The horseshoe extension will happen on the 12th of Never.

Quite simply, we need a bigger Mayflower than the proposed stand. Not to build one will go down in history as one of the biggest watershed moments of failure and under-ambition even by Argyle's standards.

Great post Sam and nail on head. Do you think you can convince the Brentites on the other side?

This argument though is flawed..I think that the ground capacity when the new stand is built,will be in excess of 17000 as I see the segregation area being greatly reduced from the figure of 400 mentioned. That aside,there weren't that many matches that crowds were in excess of 17000,when we were last in the CCC apart from that first season,which could be down to novelty value.Again I fully expect that factor to kick in when the new stand is built.Whilst we wont be able to match the 19000+for the QPR game for example,there will be plenty of room for the 12000 or so that turned up for other matches,so that whilst the highs will be lower,the lows might well be higher.Season tickets will be the key as I would fully expect the club to use the old strapline"Buy a season ticket and be part of the action throughout the season",so that the club might sell out of season tickets,and attendances will therefore be around 17000 every game regardless of opposition.So you will get lower highs but higher lows.
As for the club being in debt to James Brent,yep true although pre Brent I believe the club was also in debt to Paul Stapleton,Robert Dennerley and Tony Wrathall,for loans that they had made,well before Todd and Gardner arrived on the scene.
I also believe the corporate sector will bring in a lot lot more money than you have posted.I am a regular attendee in the business lounge,and it has been sold out on numerous occasions last season and could well benefit from increased capacity.At present there are abot 160 covers in the lounge,and by increasing this to around 600 covers,it will greatly add to the matchday revenue.Especially again as the novelty factor kicks in.
Add to that alcohol sales,etc etc,and it will be a nice little earner as Del boy would say.I also think that the proposed "school" will be turned into matchday lounges similar to the Bickle suite and Chisholm lounge are at the moment.Again all additional revenue to the club's bottom line.
So to conclude I think, unlike you Sam,that the clubs financial status will improve considerably,and the club will be gaining a lot more than £1 million a year,probably nearer £3 million, when the new stand is built whatever the final capacity

greensleeves wrote:

Pokesdown wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

Quite aside from the belief that we underachieved in the Holloway years and the opinion that if we'd have pushed on in terms of gates if we showed signs of really going for it (which I agree with), the article is poorly written and lacking in basic facts.

As the AFT have said, once you add 4,800 to 12,600 and subtract segregation you will have at the very MAXIMUM a capacity of 17,000. Probably less. So it's in fact not 'just one or two games' that have ever gone above the capacity of this new stand which I keep hearing, but it is in fact between 20-25 games from Luggy's first promotion season up to around 2007. 20-25 games is not to be sniffed at, at all. The extra income from that which we will miss out on from a 17,000 stadium will stretch into the hundreds of thousands.

So, our financial situation if/when we return to the Championship...these are the factors to consider:

-We will be losing a lot of income (probably hundreds of thousands) from the stand's lower capacity than last time as we won't be able to get so many paying customers in which is money down from what we had last time.
- We will owe money to historic creditors, James Brent and the Green Taverners which we did not owe last time.
-We will be gaining only £1million a year (if that) on top of what we did last time from sponsorship/conferences/banquets/the school.

Yet in spite of all that it's seriously being espoused that when we get into the Championship the club will find £2.5 million to add 2,500 seats of restricted view to the Devonport End over one Summer, just like that? The horseshoe extension will happen on the 12th of Never.

Quite simply, we need a bigger Mayflower than the proposed stand. Not to build one will go down in history as one of the biggest watershed moments of failure and under-ambition even by Argyle's standards.

Great post Sam and nail on head. Do you think you can convince the Brentites on the other side?

This argument though is flawed..I think that the ground capacity when the new stand is built,will be in excess of 17000 as I see the segregation area being greatly reduced from the figure of 400 mentioned. That aside,there weren't that many matches that crowds were in excess of 17000,when we were last in the CCC apart from that first season,which could be down to novelty value.Again I fully expect that factor to kick in when the new stand is built.Whilst we wont be able to match the 19000+for the QPR game for example,there will be plenty of room for the 12000 or so that turned up for other matches,so that whilst the highs will be lower,the lows might well be higher.Season tickets will be the key as I would fully expect the club to use the old strapline"Buy a season ticket and be part of the action throughout the season",so that the club might sell out of season tickets,and attendances will therefore be around 17000 every game regardless of opposition.So you will get lower highs but higher lows.
As for the club being in debt to James Brent,yep true although pre Brent I believe the club was also in debt to Paul Stapleton,Robert Dennerley and Tony Wrathall,for loans that they had made,well before Todd and Gardner arrived on the scene.
I also believe the corporate sector will bring in a lot lot more money than you have posted.I am a regular attendee in the business lounge,and it has been sold out on numerous occasions last season and could well benefit from increased capacity.At present there are abot 160 covers in the lounge,and by increasing this to around 600 covers,it will greatly add to the matchday revenue.Especially again as the novelty factor kicks in.
Add to that alcohol sales,etc etc,and it will be a nice little earner as Del boy would say.I also think that the proposed "school" will be turned into matchday lounges similar to the Bickle suite and Chisholm lounge are at the moment.Again all additional revenue to the club's bottom line.
So to conclude I think, unlike you Sam,that the clubs financial status will improve considerably,and the club will be gaining a lot more than £1 million a year,probably nearer £3 million, when the new stand is built whatever the final capacity

The "conference" facilities talk is bollocks. From the plans we've seen so far I can't see that it's any better than what's available now and no big firms are going to be coming down to Plymouth for a view of the pitch and a cold buffet.

The sponsorship claim made by Brent is because the new stand will be sponsored by FES/FIL. Other than that I reckon the figures are extremely optimistic to put it politely. The bar to replace the Far Post Club will need to be pretty good too, and with Brent's track record at Argyle I can't see it being anything special.