Today's Chip Paper

The fact that banning Newell is even being voted on is a sign that things are changing over there.

You'll be getting a white feather next though, better get the screenshot button ready

Its good to see that Mark Pedlar has taken the initiative in an attempt to start the healing process, I for one hope he succeeds and its clear that he is enaging in a sensible and adult dialogue, I hope everyone else follows suit.

FWIW, I think they are a large number of issues that cross over from different times and that is going to be the problem, for example GJ's grievances are recent and more serious and hurtful than say Tring who's only real motive is to get back on Pasoti and start posting again.

Sorting the wheat from the chaff (if it does happen) is going to be very difficult, I dont think its fair that 'one size fits all' due to some of the historic problems and issues Pasoti had with some ADT posters as those reasons may remain valid (I have no idea of any details - but you get the drift of the point) so although allowing some back on Pasoti would be good - I doubt it will be extended to everyone which although may be fair and right for reasons none of us are privy too, there will be a continued divide amongst the poster base on here, I think it needs to be accepted that you cant just import an entire database of users and that some decisions will need to take place that may not suit everyone on here, but thats fair enough, we are in a world of choice, no-one has a divine right to be a member of a message board no matter how loud they shout.

Surely, whilst IJN is maintaining his inflammatory and confrontational high profile online presence it is going to be extremely difficult for any poster here - to post on Pasoti whithout feeling angry that they they share 'the same room' as him and my guess is that instead of feelings calming down, they will be magnified to some degree and it could make matters worse, so I guess Im saying that IJN would also need to agree to some 'watering down' of his style as well.

That said, I cant see him agreeing to exercise that degree of humility, that is not a personal dig or an insult, I would certainly say that to this face.

Gob you may remember that around 6 or 7 years ago we used to engage him in debate and it was evident then of the sort of style he deploys, the Roger Hutchinson affair on Pasoti for anyone that remembers is a good example and the heat has been cranked up considerably since then.

But what I dont get from all sides (GJ aside as he has certainly got some unfinished business and questions) is how everyone can be so damn nasty to people they dont even know, which brings me onto Ian (PL2).

I dont know anything about this Greeman account apart from what I have read on here and Pasoti (havent posted on either site for over a year), but what I do know is that everyone has their breaking point, its clear for good reason on both sides. What I do know for a fact is that Ian is a good man, without going to personal details on a public site - he was a immense support to me some years ago on several different occassions and take it from me he is a geniune fella

Of course that doesnt excuse the Greeman account, but I trurly believe that Ian would not have posted anything of a violent or threatening nature, he is simply not like that as a person - and anything that wants to disgree then fine but you will need to tell me how you know him as a person for me to take you seriously, if you are going to purely base an opinion on an 'online person' then it will hardly be a valid or reliable point.

He has shown the type of person he is by 'coming out' last week - what a shame that his stance hasnt been followed up and supported by others and I think this will obviously rumble on until others hold their hands up, clearly unfair that Ian should take the whole blame when I trurly believe that he was not involved in the nasty stuff that GJ has endured.

Pasoti in general went far to far the other way in recent years, I think Mark P has mentioned this. Some years before Chris Webb et al (just using this as a time line not suggesting anything else) joined Pasoti it was a vibrant, lively place full of good intelligent contributing posters, I used to cross swords daily with posters like Mike Sainsbury but never abusive or insulting.

The same could be said for 100 page threads that were not needed to be moderated heavily because although it was hard and passionate debate (Kevin Ball springs to mind remember Gob?) it was never nasty or personal and if the kettle did boil too much, apologises were PM'd and we continued the next day! Now what do we have on Pasoti? Nothing of the 'old Pasoti' where some really great debates took place, posters (bless her) like Bex would argue her corner and the next week we were rattling buckets around HP together for PASDA laughing about it all.

There is no doubt in mind that both sites look to look at themselves and decide how and want they want and how they see the future before the whole lot implodes

We still don't know who does the selecting of mods and from what Mark has said, the balance of power within the modroom, is the deciding factor.

As I said, a small clique.

As for the suggestions that Pasoti members are happy with the moderators, why don't you put it to the vote, asking whether the membership would prefer elected mods or to continue with the present systems of invites from the control group ?

Can anyone not see, how the current closed shop and the untouchables in the modroom, has led to the abuses of control and power so clearly evident ?

If Newell decides he wants back in, he'll be voted in, obviously .

It simply isn't healthy and an increasing number of people can see it. THe only people happy with it are wannabes and dimwitted sheep.

How ironic that the Arab spring is fighting for and against democracy and in the little Argyle world it is no different.

Guess who is playing the role of Gadaffi ?

Superb post by Ade. I cannot find a single part of that post I'd disagree with.

Comparing this 'issue' to what happened in Libya is absolutely stupid Tring. I don't honestly think you believe what you post when you go to these outlandish extremes - I hope you don't. On one level, it's ridiculous, on another, it's distasteful and on a third level, it's similar to a teenage tantrum where a thirteen year old child compares his parents to Nazis because they won't allow that child to have their own way.

Tringreen wrote:

We still don't know who does the selecting of mods and from what Mark has said, the balance of power within the modroom, is the deciding factor.

As I said, a small clique.

As for the suggestions that Pasoti members are happy with the moderators, why don't you put it to the vote, asking whether the membership would prefer elected mods or to continue with the present systems of invites from the control group ?

Can anyone not see, how the current closed shop and the untouchables in the modroom, has led to the abuses of control and power so clearly evident ?

If Newell decides he wants back in, he'll be voted in, obviously .

It simply isn't healthy and an increasing number of people can see it. THe only people happy with it are wannabes and dimwitted sheep.

How ironic that the Arab spring is fighting for and against democracy and in the little Argyle world it is no different.

Guess who is playing the role of Gadaffi ?

Tring - I don't know what you want me to say - yes it's a small (13ish) man clique. It's not going to change quickly. As for IJN being asked back as a Mod - I can't see that happening. I have already said the next mods will be got (I can't think of a word that you'll not find fault with) in a different way. I asked for comments or thoughts on the hijack thread and got ..... few!!

By the way, perhaps the news hasn't reached Cyprus yet - Gadaffi is dead - killed by his own people.

Ade,

I don't want to post on Pasoti again but I would like the entitlement, if I wanted to. That to me would be the sign that there was a genuine willingness for a fresh start and possibly even a united online fanbase. Sadly, it won't happen. Those who still control Pasoti won't give it up. It's as simple as that. Newell may not currently be a mod but he could be whenever he so desires.

On the ATD side of the divide, the historically most bitter critics of the Pasoti control group are no longer involved in the admin. It was a difficult process but we now have democratically elected moderators and two long standing members as keyholders to act as guardians of said democracy. I was concerned that a newly elected moderating team might cancel future elections, as happened on Pasoti after Mr Newell was elected in the only ever election, many years ago.Hence the keyholders.

If the people with the most 'history' all step back from control and both forums encourage a democratic approach to moderation, my guess is that Pasoti would remain mainstream and be moderated more strictly[ but fairly] and ATD will remain a more edgy, critical eye, where the moderators only interfere if legal and common decency boundaries are breached.

But believe this................ Newell and his inner sanctum won't give up control. It will have to be taken from them , as happens with all dictatorships eventually.

Tring, if you posted that things were 'unfair' from your perspective and that you disagreed with how things 'are', that'd be great and fine and perfectly acceptable. You post about real Dictatorships though and compare forum moderation to genocidal torturers - you sound like a bit of a cock when you do that. Just sayin' like.

PL2 may well be a 'decent fella' in the real world but his online persona can be come across as very creepy. As soon as a poster starts posting on Pasoti with genuine concerns and misgivings about the club he starts analysing post counts and 'researches' that poster in an extremely sinister way - posting snide remarks in manner so as to undermine the poster. Then the multis pile in. As soon as the poster retaliates it's banning time. Too much underhand controlling and it still continues - you only have to read the Hijack and 'Chip Paper' threads to see it in action.

And then there's the personal attacks on the Trust personnel without cogent argument - just flouncing and innuendo.

I loathe censorship and manipulation of this nature.

Ade says a lot of it for me. I was more than happy with Pasoti for many years but somehow it changed from the site that was banned from being viewed at HP on pain of getting the sack to what we have now. I felt I was just a grumpy old man as all the old stagers disappeared to be replaced with lots of youngsters who became enthused in our last rise up the pecking order, so many of them seemed to have no more to contribute than "I agree" every two minutes. The quality and passion of the debate suffered greatly, the best reading was, latterly, the opinions section.

There's a change discernable now but that's hardly surprising given our slipping towards the abyss after the euphoria of our rebirth. Back in the day there would have been a vigorous oversight of the Brent regime from Day 1, his supporters would have still been able to have their say but so would the naysayers, without having to suffer gang ridicule.

Anybody that trots out the line "it's just the internet" is being disigenious. The world we live in now pays great attention, rightly or wrongly, to what is said and visible online.

Mike,

There really aren't that many multis. I know you may not believe that, or want to, but there aren't. Those mods that have multis only use them for modding purposes nowadays. I know that wasn't the case in the past but hand on heart I can honestly say that now.

The 'I'm a nice guy in the real World' stance is quite a flakey argument when it comes to forums.

Unless you create a ficticious persona (anyone remember The Tiger on pasoti - that was an amazing account) you post as yourself. You choose what to post and you decide what you post and you select words and you convey your own point of view.

The internet is a real place, it's equally as cultural as life itself - this argument tends to come from older people who see it as some form of alternative universe. I've grown up in a World with the internet so I view the internet as REAL life. If you create an anonymous account and pretend to be someone else so you can post unpleasant things without any real consequence, you're a bit of a slimey shitbag in REAL LIFE as you have consciously decided to do it in the first place.

Mark Pedlar wrote:

Tringreen wrote:

We still don't know who does the selecting of mods and from what Mark has said, the balance of power within the modroom, is the deciding factor.

As I said, a small clique.

As for the suggestions that Pasoti members are happy with the moderators, why don't you put it to the vote, asking whether the membership would prefer elected mods or to continue with the present systems of invites from the control group ?

Can anyone not see, how the current closed shop and the untouchables in the modroom, has led to the abuses of control and power so clearly evident ?

If Newell decides he wants back in, he'll be voted in, obviously .

It simply isn't healthy and an increasing number of people can see it. THe only people happy with it are wannabes and dimwitted sheep.

How ironic that the Arab spring is fighting for and against democracy and in the little Argyle world it is no different.

Guess who is playing the role of Gadaffi ?

Tring - I don't know what you want me to say - yes it's a small (13ish) man clique. It's not going to change quickly. As for IJN being asked back as a Mod - I can't see that happening. I have already said the next mods will be got (I can't think of a word that you'll not find fault with) in a different way. I asked for comments or thoughts on the hijack thread and got ..... few!!

By the way, perhaps the news hasn't reached Cyprus yet - Gadaffi is dead - killed by his own people.

Ha ha ! yes , of course and Plymouth is always a couple of years behind the times...... at least. Power to the people !

As for IJN returning to the modroom officially. It would appear by the lack of action against him that the oligarchy is still reigning supreme and if he wants back , he'll bloody well get it, or else !
Watch your back Mark. Fair play to you for coming on here and trying but I think we all know the score.

Have the multi accounts that IJN held under the email addressess of ianisnow@sky.com and iannewell@blueyonder.co.uk been deleted now?

What second account did he have?

hairy j wrote:

Tring, if you posted that things were 'unfair' from your perspective and that you disagreed with how things 'are', that'd be great and fine and perfectly acceptable. You post about real Dictatorships though and compare forum moderation to genocidal torturers - you sound like a bit of a cock when you do that. Just sayin' like.

I don't think so, In fact, trying to twist words in the way you are doing, is typical of the way Pasoti has and continues to be run.

From my perspective then, I have no respect for genocidal torturers , or forum moderators who silence and expel dissidents. They are all dictators in my opinion.

hairy j wrote:

The 'I'm a nice guy in the real World' stance is quite a flakey argument when it comes to forums.

Unless you create a ficticious persona (anyone remember The Tiger on pasoti - that was an amazing account) you post as yourself. You choose what to post and you decide what you post and you select words and you convey your own point of view.

The internet is a real place, it's equally as cultural as life itself - this argument tends to come from older people who see it as some form of alternative universe. I've grown up in a World with the internet so I view the internet as REAL life. If you create an anonymous account and pretend to be someone else so you can post unpleasant things without any real consequence, you're a bit of a slimey shitbag in REAL LIFE as you have consciously decided to do it in the first place.

Yep I agree with all that

Tringreen wrote:

hairy j wrote:

Tring, if you posted that things were 'unfair' from your perspective and that you disagreed with how things 'are', that'd be great and fine and perfectly acceptable. You post about real Dictatorships though and compare forum moderation to genocidal torturers - you sound like a bit of a cock when you do that. Just sayin' like.

I don't think so, In fact, trying to twist words in the way you are doing, is typical of the way Pasoti has and continues to be run.

From my perspective then, I have no respect for genocidal torturers , or forum moderators who silence and expel dissidents. They are all dictators in my opinion.

I think you lack a sense of perspective Tring. I'd hate to see how you'd react to true life changing injustice.

hairy j wrote:

Tringreen wrote:

hairy j wrote:

Tring, if you posted that things were 'unfair' from your perspective and that you disagreed with how things 'are', that'd be great and fine and perfectly acceptable. You post about real Dictatorships though and compare forum moderation to genocidal torturers - you sound like a bit of a cock when you do that. Just sayin' like.

I don't think so, In fact, trying to twist words in the way you are doing, is typical of the way Pasoti has and continues to be run.

From my perspective then, I have no respect for genocidal torturers , or forum moderators who silence and expel dissidents. They are all dictators in my opinion.

I think you lack a sense of perspective Tring. I'd hate to see how you'd react to true life changing injustice.

We'll just have to agree to disagree ,dear boy. Institutionalised corruption offends me wherever it occurs and at any level. It is not acceptable.

I agree with that Tring but IJN isn't a murderer, PL2 hasn't strapped any one to a metal bed and electrocuted them to death and Chris Webb hasn't called out an airstrike recently to annihilate the residents of Gunnislake. You're banned from pasoti, you're not a Jew at the gates of a concentration camp or a Somalian woman who's been gang raped by soldiers or an Afghani shepherd who's been chained to a truck and dragged to his death by the Taliban for owning a radio.

hairy j wrote:

The 'I'm a nice guy in the real World' stance is quite a flakey argument when it comes to forums.

Unless you create a ficticious persona (anyone remember The Tiger on pasoti - that was an amazing account) you post as yourself. You choose what to post and you decide what you post and you select words and you convey your own point of view.

The internet is a real place, it's equally as cultural as life itself - this argument tends to come from older people who see it as some form of alternative universe. I've grown up in a World with the internet so I view the internet as REAL life. If you create an anonymous account and pretend to be someone else so you can post unpleasant things without any real consequence, you're a bit of a slimey shitbag in REAL LIFE as you have consciously decided to do it in the first place.

Some and some I think Hairy. Whilst I know for a fact that PL2 is a nice guy, sadly it seems the same cannot be said for Ian Newell, whose confrontational style has been evident for years - made worse in my view as soon as he became a MOD on Pasoti, things definately changed then and he himself admits he has made mistakes (whatever they maybe). Made worse but his admirable efforts with others, for assisting in saving the club he has become far far too close to off the field matters and that led to his 'over modding' on Pasoti on anything or anyone that dared to question James Brent, which is suprising given the fact that he and thousands of others (myself included) trusted local boy Stapleton to do the right thing and look how wrong we all were.

If we have learnt anything, its to question and hold custodians to account in a polite and professional manor - that includes online forums who do hold sway -but sadly due to 'the rise of the foot soldier' with the best intentions Im sure, its gone a bit too far and if Pasoti trurly wants to get back to where it once was, then emotive and difficult topics need to be allowed to happen without the standard lines being trotted out about being ungrateful - where were you etc, in fact I'd say that those type of discussions are not only healthy but would be provide a healthy opinion to the club of how a small section of online fans are feeling, rather than Charlie Woods correct assessment of 'I agree I agree' all the time.

As for Peter Jones - He should not be allowed to get away with promoting Man Utd in such an obvious manor :-)

Welcome Ade, good to see sensible debate from all quarters.

hairy j wrote:

I agree with that Tring but IJN isn't a murderer, PL2 hasn't strapped any one to a metal bed and electrocuted them to death and Chris Webb hasn't called out an airstrike recently to annihilate the residents of Gunnislake. You're banned from pasoti, you're not a Jew at the gates of a concentration camp or a Somalian woman who's been gang raped by soldiers or an Afghani shepherd who's been chained to a truck and dragged to his death by the Taliban for owning a radio.

LJN wrote :
Stop this stupid hounding, on line, or someone will end up being hurt, that's not a threat, I'm too old for all that rubbish, but someone will do something stupid soon, I can just feel it.

As Graham Clark has said, none of us invloved are blameless, none involved can say we haven't made mistakes, but I can feel this is going to brew over from the internet world into the real world if people don't stop this.

You may get your rocks off on sh*t stirring HBLC, others are doing the same, and some of them claim to be sensible and the mediator type, but look back at this thread, when it was dying, these 'sensible' people, pop back on and bring this thread back to the top.

Let's stop this crap soon, because if someone does end up hurt, self inflicted, wife leaving him or something else, the people that are stirring in the background, are as culpable if not more so, than the original protaganists, of which I was one.

Let's please put an end to this nonsense NOW!!

Tringreen wrote :

Cease devious activities. Allow Pasoti to become open and fairly moderated. The 'nonsense' ends.

Is that really too much to ask ?

Ade wrote:

Pasoti in general went far to far the other way in recent years, I think Mark P has mentioned this. Some years before Chris Webb et al (just using this as a time line not suggesting anything else) joined Pasoti it was a vibrant, lively place full of good intelligent contributing posters, I used to cross swords daily with posters like Mike Sainsbury but never abusive or insulting.

The same could be said for 100 page threads that were not needed to be moderated heavily because although it was hard and passionate debate (Kevin Ball springs to mind remember Gob?) it was never nasty or personal and if the kettle did boil too much, apologises were PM'd and we continued the next day! Now what do we have on Pasoti? Nothing of the 'old Pasoti' where some really great debates took place, posters (bless her) like Bex would argue her corner and the next week we were rattling buckets around HP together for PASDA laughing about it all.

Is that you Ade - Camborne wasn't it?

I think the paras above sum it up for me. I used to post a lot on Pasoti around the time of the consortium and after - as Ade says there was reasoned, passionate and sensible debate about a range of issues (although old Farmer Gyles could get a bit personal at times).

Then the admin process took over, ruined the club and also ruined pasoti. The likes of Webb and Newell took over and simply could not countenance any views differing in any way from their own. I stopped posting simply because it became a total waste of time. I had the threats from Webb about serving me 'legal papers', whatever that means, which I ignored, because I posted that I didn't want Webb anywhere near the football club. I think I can say I was right about that.

As for Newell I've had few dealings with him, aside from asking him to post the 'thumbs up' photo because I basically couldn't work out how to do it - something which he tried to use against me some time later. Anything else he says or does is a matter of monumental indifference to me, which sad to say, is how I feel about the club these days.

I don't post on pasoti any more because it is a site for sheep. There is no debate that really matters and it seems to be infested by spotty faced adolescents who worship the ground the current owner walks on because they've been told to.

Anyhoo, respect to Mark Pedlar for coming over here and explaining a few things. As for this ATD/Pasoti divide, it will always be thus, simply because of the personalities involved - and there's nothing really wrong with that. One combined forum for all PAFC fans would be somewhat boring. I can come on here from time to time and have a good old grump about all things Argyle and know that I'm not going to be called silly names by intellectually challenged and emotionally retarded individuals.

So there. In other news, I hope to be spending a lot more time in our Spanish property playing golf in the sunshine from now on. Haven't got the internet out there yet. Not sure if I will to be honest, although I could be outvoted by Mrs PP on that.

Firstly, it seems to me to be a wrong place to start by telling pasoti how to run their site. That is up to pasoti. If they choose to "get" mods rather than have an election, that is up to them. ATD shouldn't tell them how to put their house in order. The same is true about how this site is run. If pasoti choose not to become a parliamentary democracy then it should be down to the members over there to ensure it works properly for the benefit & protection of everyone.

There may be too much history between certain individuals for this to go away. That needs to be acknowledged and put away in a box and only brought out when needed.

This is a contradiction of my first paragraph (sorry), but in my opinion the first step for pasoti to take should be to declare an amnesty. In the mod-room here we recently had a brief discussion about for how long individuals should be "banned/suspended" on ATD - whether we should always have an indeterminate or permanent period. My view is that discussion needs to be had on pasoti also. Of course, people who have been banned (or simply not allowed to log on as was my case) may choose not to sign back up to pasoti and that should be their decision. This move would go a long way to repairing some of the ill-feeling.

A reciprocal move by ATD would be to reduce the gratuitous abuse and poking of the other site. I see no reason for the holding up of pasoti for examination to stop - especially as to a degree it has become an extension of the club rather than independent of it. It may even be a consideration to create a section of ATD where such discussion should be had. The mods would have to be more rigorous about moving posts into that forum if they threaten to overtake discussions on other subjects elsewhere on here.

Finally, wouldn't it be good to discuss football or whatever rather than each other?!

Yea Man wrote:

Have the multi accounts that IJN held under the email addressess of ianisnow@sky.com and iannewell@blueyonder.co.uk been deleted now?

What second account did he have?

IJN only has one account on PASOTI. Both email addresses have been linked to different historical editions of "IJN" but he has not had a multi account since he left the mod room earlier this year. We investigated the double email earlier this year and it was linked to a deleted account. There is so much historical stuff on PASOTI that trying to register with someone's email address is often going to come up with "in use". I've tried three different email addresses that i've used over the years and they are blocked too even though i've only used one for a couple of years.

I have to say that Ade has made some very good points. Personally I don't want to post on Pasoti again, but I think some on here would like to be able to out of principal.

I can only speak about Pasoti over the last 18 months, and it's not good. I've seen some incredibly creepy stuff and I would regard it as just an extension of the club, certainly last year anyway, and thats not healthy.

Dissent is clamped down on and posters bullied and I think this place is like it in reverse at times, but apart from all of that I find it boring. For humour this place pisses all over it. It's too moderated on all threads where it could do with allowing terraces to be like real terraces.

On Postey, I do appreciate that he's owned up to some of Greenman, but not the bad stuff? He's questioned my honesty and it's only picked at the scab by leaving the rest still under the carpet. Until the whole truth comes out it's pointless Postey owning up. I ask Postey to show the p.m.'s if they're not that threatening? The problem is who else is involved and that's where I'm still angry. I believe the culprits are close to James Brent, mind you I also believe in Bigfoot!

I also want Newell to be honest and stop acting like his shit doesn't stink, and Webb too. I've said I'm no Angel and deserve some stick back, but it's been far more than that. Until those things are admitted by Hooper or denied by him and Newell and Webb admit lying again then nothing changes for me.

I've also been called a racist publicly on Pasoti, by Postey I might add, which again has fuelled my anger and made me ten times worse than I was originally.

I won't hold my breath waiting for all of this because Webb and Newell have too much to lose, but along with Peter Jones's outburst, it's made me not want anything to do with the club because of the proximity of these people to the owner. That's 30 yrs support, all over the country and through good and bad, I didn't even know the result yesterday until last night and I've got commentary already paid for. Haven't used it for weeks now.

That's the saddest thing about it all for me. I kind of hope Argyle get relegated just to piss Webb and Newell off, that can't be normal but it shows how aggrieved I feel.