Why the exeter boycott?

Cardiff are reaping the benefits of showing ambition and their 'Argyle sized' gates over the last 30 years are now exceeding what we've ever managed.

Trust in Stapes

Trust in Brent

I don't even know if this is relevant any more.

I typed 'Cardiff' about an hour ago then got called away to manly duties, and when I returned couldn't be bothered to re-read the thread.

Greenskin wrote:

Of course ( the 1.6 million poulation of Devon and Cornwall) isn't irrelevant.The catchment area is the catchment area whatever league you're in-i agree,it applies to Exeter and Torquay as well but by your admission,neither club is ever likely to reach the second tier which would seem to narrow down the field of who is best equipped to tap into that potential fanbase somewhat.

Yes it is irrelevant. The so-called catchment area you refer to would only come into play if Argyle ever got INTO the Premier League. There is no evidence that it will materialise in order to help you get there in the first place, which is what we are discussing - not what your fortunes may or may not be if that were to happen.

Quote :

Argyle averaged 16400 in the first season back in the CCC,better than Swansea,Cardiff and Bristol City to watch a team that finished 17th in the division,far worse than those clubs achieved.Does that not say something to you?...

Yes. It says to me that almost all clubs get a bounce in their support when they get promoted, but unless they have the sort of significant core support that you certainly do not have, it never lasts once the novelty wears off, unless things get better every year. What did you get in your final year in the Championship for example? If you really are comparing yourselves to Cardiff - and even Bristol City - then this debate has entered the realms of the surreal.

Quote :

Why do think Argyle's gate dwindled so badly?...

Because much of the support that produces the higher attendances is soft and unreliable, as I keep saying.

Quote :

...Ever heard of momentum?

Yes - and that supports my earlier point in this post and before - i.e that without a significantly higher hardcore support to see you through fallow periods, you could only maintain a halfway competitive fanbase in terms of getting to the Premier League, by improving every year. That can only continue for so long.

Quote :

See my earlier post as to why we lost our fanbase and failed to develop it...

You didn't lose your fanbase; you lost the fairweather fans that artificially boosted your attendances. I could equally say that we lost 1 or 2'000 from our "fanbase" between our return to League 1 and today, but I would only be kidding myself.

Quote :

I absolutely agree that in comparison to Ipswich,Norwich,Saints etc our fanbase IS soft and transient and have been saying so for years,rather than trot out the "apathetic janner" mantra.Tring will confirm this and will also confirm that that the most obvious reason for this phenomenon is that Argyle have never actually reached the top flight and given themselves a chance to cement the fanbase-see my post at 6.15 today.

Exactly my point - and a significant boost in father-to-son, traditional hardcore support would probably take more than a decade of success in the modern era and would probably even then never match that of those clubs who built their support in an entirely different context and period in history.

Quote :

I think you misunderstood my statement that there is no valid comparison between Aldershot and Argyle.My argument was that Aldershot have many clubs playing at a far higher level within easy reach of the Aldershot urban area,that is why i drew attention to Southampton,Portsmouth,Reading and the London clubs-as i said in an earlier post,i lived in the area for some time and can well understand how prospective football goers would choose those clubs rather than Aldershot,which would make it very difficult for them to make serious progress.Not having a dig at your club but Argyle have never really had the problem of attractive close competitors a la Aldershot,although it has to be said that the attraction of a good session in the pub watching a premier league game is a strong one for many.Understandably so,in fairness.

But against the problem of the competition of having many clubs nearby, they have the advantage of being in a much more attractive location in terms of those in the industry - players, managers, coaches and so on. The vast majority of people working in an industry want to be as close to the centres of that industry as possible and not marooned hundreds of miles away. That is why you find most Graphic Designers, Fashion Designers, Musicians and Filmakers etc in London and not in Plymouth or Scunthorpe. Football is no different.

In any case, as I keep saying, success of the type many Argyle fans seem to yearn for, is based on a number of factors. You seem to be concentrating on one or two selective facts to tell yourself that Argyle are a Premiership club in waiting.

The point I was making about Aldershot is not that they are a Premiership club in waiting either, but that the major argument your fans use for the idea that Argyle is a big club, in terms of potential to reach the Premiership - i.e that Argyle is a big city/population centre - is false. To demonstrate that I compared Plymouth with the Aldershot Urban Area, which is almost identical in size. Moreover your city is not much bigger than something like the 35th or 36th biggest population centre in the UK. Anyone who has been to a few of the bigger cities in the UK only has to walk around Plymouth to realise that it has none of the big city "feel" that some of you seem to think it has.

Anyway, we'll have to disagree. Neither of us is going to convince the other. My point is not to sneer, but to highlight what I suspect is a significant factor in your troubles. In other words what I see as a misunderstanding of your true situation and a misguided yearning for something that I believe is much farther away than you think. In turn this has led to the vain search for a rich messiah to take you there, which is where the problems often begin when football clubs get themselves in trouble.

jabba the gut ecfc wrote:

Greenskin wrote:

Of course ( the 1.6 million poulation of Devon and Cornwall) isn't irrelevant.The catchment area is the catchment area whatever league you're in-i agree,it applies to Exeter and Torquay as well but by your admission,neither club is ever likely to reach the second tier which would seem to narrow down the field of who is best equipped to tap into that potential fanbase somewhat.

Yes it is irrelevant. The so-called catchment area you refer to would only come into play if Argyle ever got INTO the Premier League. There is no evidence that it will materialise in order to help you get there in the first place, which is what we are discussing - not what your fortunes may or may not be if that were to happen.

Quote :

Argyle averaged 16400 in the first season back in the CCC,better than Swansea,Cardiff and Bristol City to watch a team that finished 17th in the division,far worse than those clubs achieved.Does that not say something to you?...

Yes. It says to me that almost all clubs get a bounce in their support when they get promoted, but unless they have the sort of significant core support that you certainly do not have, it never lasts once the novelty wears off, unless things get better every year. What did you get in your final year in the Championship for example? If you really are comparing yourselves to Cardiff - and even Bristol City - then this debate has entered the realms of the surreal.

Quote :

Why do think Argyle's gate dwindled so badly?...

Because much of the support that produces the higher attendances is soft and unreliable, as I keep saying.

Quote :

...Ever heard of momentum?

Yes - and that supports my earlier point in this post and before - i.e that without a significantly higher hardcore support to see you through fallow periods, you could only maintain a halfway competitive fanbase in terms of getting to the Premier League, by improving every year. That can only continue for so long.

Quote :

See my earlier post as to why we lost our fanbase and failed to develop it...

You didn't lose your fanbase; you lost the fairweather fans that artificially boosted your attendances. I could equally say that we lost 1 or 2'000 from our "fanbase" between our return to League 1 and today, but I would only be kidding myself.

Quote :

I absolutely agree that in comparison to Ipswich,Norwich,Saints etc our fanbase IS soft and transient and have been saying so for years,rather than trot out the "apathetic janner" mantra.Tring will confirm this and will also confirm that that the most obvious reason for this phenomenon is that Argyle have never actually reached the top flight and given themselves a chance to cement the fanbase-see my post at 6.15 today.

Exactly my point - and a significant boost in father-to-son, traditional hardcore support would probably take more than a decade of success in the modern era and would probably even then never match that of those clubs who built their support in an entirely different context and period in history.

Quote :

I think you misunderstood my statement that there is no valid comparison between Aldershot and Argyle.My argument was that Aldershot have many clubs playing at a far higher level within easy reach of the Aldershot urban area,that is why i drew attention to Southampton,Portsmouth,Reading and the London clubs-as i said in an earlier post,i lived in the area for some time and can well understand how prospective football goers would choose those clubs rather than Aldershot,which would make it very difficult for them to make serious progress.Not having a dig at your club but Argyle have never really had the problem of attractive close competitors a la Aldershot,although it has to be said that the attraction of a good session in the pub watching a premier league game is a strong one for many.Understandably so,in fairness.

But against the problem of the competition of having many clubs nearby, they have the advantage of being in a much more attractive location in terms of those in the industry - players, managers, coaches and so on. The vast majority of people working in an industry want to be as close to the centres of that industry as possible and not marooned hundreds of miles away. That is why you find most Graphic Designers, Fashion Designers Musicians and Filmamkers etc in London and not Plymouth or Scunthorpe. Football is no different.

In any case as I keep saying, success of the type many Argyle fans seem to yearn for, is based on a number of factors. You seem to be concentrating on one or two selective facts to tell yourself that Argyle are a Premiership club in waiting.

The point I was making about Aldershot is not that they are a Premiership club in waiting either, but that the major argument your fans use for the idea that Argyle is a big club in terms of potential to reach the Premiership - that Argyle is a big city/population centre - is false. To demonstrate that I compared it with the Aldershot Urban Area, with which Plymouth is almost identical in size. Moreover your city is not much bigger than something like the 35th or 36th biggest population centre in the UK. Anyone who has been to a few of the bigger cities in the UK only has to walk around Plymouth to realise that it has none of the big city "feel" that some of you seem to think it has.

Anyway, we'll have to disagree. Neither of us is going to convince the other. My point is not to sneer, but to highlight what I suspect is a significant factor in your troubles. In other words what I see as a misunderstanding of your true situation and a misguided yearning for something that I believe is much farther away than you think. In turn this has led to the vain search for a rich messiah to take you there, which is where the problems often begin when football clubs get themselves in trouble.

Bollocks.

jabba the gut ecfc wrote:

Greenskin wrote:

Of course ( the 1.6 million poulation of Devon and Cornwall) isn't irrelevant.The catchment area is the catchment area whatever league you're in-i agree,it applies to Exeter and Torquay as well but by your admission,neither club is ever likely to reach the second tier which would seem to narrow down the field of who is best equipped to tap into that potential fanbase somewhat.

Yes it is irrelevant. The so-called catchment area you refer to would only come into play if Argyle ever got INTO the Premier League. There is no evidence that it will materialise in order to help you get there in the first place, which is what we are discussing - not what your fortunes may or may not be if that were to happen.

Nicely done and a very good sidestep.

Quote :

Argyle averaged 16400 in the first season back in the CCC,better than Swansea,Cardiff and Bristol City to watch a team that finished 17th in the division,far worse than those clubs achieved.Does that not say something to you?...

Yes. It says to me that almost all clubs get a bounce in their support when they get promoted, but unless they have the sort of significant core support that you certainly do not have, it never lasts once the novelty wears off, unless things get better every year. What did you get in your final year in the Championship for example? If you really are comparing yourselves to Cardiff - and even Bristol City - then this debate has entered the realms of the surreal.

Of course i'm not comparing Cardiff and Bristol City to us as things stand,although BCFC could be the next Argyle if they don't watch it.Point is,those clubs achieved on the field [although Cardiff did lose a load of support until they reached the cup final and built their stadium] to retain their fanbase-Argyle didn't-why was that?

Quote :

Why do think Argyle's gate dwindled so badly?...

Because much of the support that produces the higher attendances is soft and unreliable, as I keep saying.

Why is it soft and unreliable though? Hope you're not going to come out with the "apathetic janner"stuff,that would be very disappointing and unworthy.

Quote]...Ever heard of momentum?

Yes - and that supports my earlier point in this post and before - i.e that without a significantly higher hardcore support to see you through fallow periods, you could only maintain a halfway competitive fanbase in terms of getting to the Premier League, by improving every year. That can only continue for so long.

Blackpool,Burnley,Stoke and Swansea all reached the premier from identical or smaller fanbases than ours.

Quote :

See my earlier post as to why we lost our fanbase and failed to develop it...

You didn't lose your fanbase; you lost the fairweather fans that artificially boosted your attendances. I could equally say that we lost 1 or 2'000 from our "fanbase" between our return to League 1 and today, but I would only be kidding myself.

Pedantic but maybe i could have phrased things a bit better-see my point above about retaining support a la Cardiff and Bristol City through on pitch progress

Quote :

I absolutely agree that in comparison to Ipswich,Norwich,Saints etc our fanbase IS soft and transient and have been saying so for years,rather than trot out the "apathetic janner" mantra.Tring will confirm this and will also confirm that that the most obvious reason for this phenomenon is that Argyle have never actually reached the top flight and given themselves a chance to cement the fanbase-see my post at 6.15 today.

Exactly my point - and a significant boost in father-to-son, traditional hardcore support would probably take more than a decade of success in the modern era and would probably even then never match that of those clubs who built their support in an entirely different context and period in history.

Reading and Hull? Why would those cities be any different to Plymouth-almost identical histories as far as achivements and gates are concerned until recent times.

Quote :

I think you misunderstood my statement that there is no valid comparison between Aldershot and Argyle.My argument was that Aldershot have many clubs playing at a far higher level within easy reach of the Aldershot urban area,that is why i drew attention to Southampton,Portsmouth,Reading and the London clubs-as i said in an earlier post,i lived in the area for some time and can well understand how prospective football goers would choose those clubs rather than Aldershot,which would make it very difficult for them to make serious progress.Not having a dig at your club but Argyle have never really had the problem of attractive close competitors a la Aldershot,although it has to be said that the attraction of a good session in the pub watching a premier league game is a strong one for many.Understandably so,in fairness.

But against the problem of the competition of having many clubs nearby, they have the advantage of being in a much more attractive location in terms of those in the industry - players, managers, coaches and so on. The vast majority of people working in an industry want to be as close to the centres of that industry as possible and not marooned hundreds of miles away. That is why you find most Graphic Designers, Fashion Designers Musicians and Filmamkers etc in London and not Plymouth or Scunthorpe. Football is no different.

In any case as I keep saying, success of the type many Argyle fans seem to yearn for, is based on a number of factors. You seem to be concentrating on one or two selective facts to tell yourself that Argyle are a Premiership club in waiting.

The point I was making about Aldershot is not that they are a Premiership club in waiting either, but that the major argument your fans use for the idea that Argyle is a big club in terms of potential to reach the Premiership - that Argyle is a big city/population centre - is false. To demonstrate that I compared it with the Aldershot Urban Area, with which Plymouth is almost identical in size. Moreover your city is not much bigger than something like the 35th or 36th biggest population centre in the UK. Anyone who has been to a few of the bigger cities in the UK only has to walk around Plymouth to realise that it has none of the big city "feel" that some of you seem to think it has.

Anyway, we'll have to disagree. Neither of us is going to convince the other. My point is not to sneer, but to highlight what I suspect is a significant factor in your troubles. In other words what I see as a misunderstanding of your true situation and a misguided yearning for something that I believe is much farther away than you think. In turn this has led to the vain search for a rich messiah to take you there, which is where the problems often begin when football clubs get themselves in trouble.[/quote]

Agreed that we'll agree to disagree,especially on your last few paragraphs which tot up to a load of half baked pseudo nonsense.IMHO,of course.

Greenskin wrote:

Only Pompey,eh? I lived in that area for a while and believe me"only Pompey"provide very stiff competition for support to Southampton.You would be mistaken to think that the respective support for the two clubs comes solely from within the two cities.There are also towns such as Winchester,Basingstoke,Salisbury,Andover,Aldershot etc all within relatively easy reach of Southampton/Portsmouth and who would contain a fair amount of floating support attracted to the club which would be doing the best at any given time.Pompey's gates have declined by around 7000 per match since their high peak,Southampton's gates have increased by about 13000 since their nadir-you can bet your bottom dollar that many of those 13000 would have stayed with Pompey had they managed to build their ground to a bigger capacity and remained in the premier league.You also forget the Reading factor as well-they would also provide a very attractive proposition,at least temporarily,for any football supporter seeking only the best standard of football available in that catchment area.So i would say that Southampton are far from isolated and lacking in competition-in fact you could also factor in the rise of Brighton in recent years as well if you analysed the demographics really deeply.

Wow, thanks for the geography lesson, but you are full of shiite. Southampton's support comes from all of those towns listed and more, because they are the only team people from the greater Hampshire area relate to at all, Pompey's support comes from the Island and those dead heads that have emigrated as far as Waterlooville or Cowplain.

But if by some miracle you were even close to right wouldn't that make PAFC look like an even bigger loser club when they still can't get more than 7k in despite being the old league club in Cornwall ?

Czarcasm wrote:

The comparison with Bristol is fairly self-explanatory. Bristol is around 75% bigger than Plymouth. I'm guessing their surrounding area constitutes a fair amount of their fanbase too. But of course, they have two League clubs vying for support. Traditionally the split is around 60% City, 40% Rovers, I believe. But it's probably more like 65%-35% or even 70%-30% when the teams are poles apart.(That's irrelevant to my point, but I digress)

So generally speaking, we are three clubs - Argyle, City and to a lesser extent Rovers, that have had similar histories. We've all under-achieved when compared to the vast majority of other similar sized cities.

It depends how you define "under-achieved". If you're basing that solely on population, then possibly, but I think your fans place far too much store on this because of the misleading way the comparison with other clubs is made.

Quote :

Don't forget, Argyle have all of Cornwall (250,000+) that fall within our potential catchment area, for when the (comparatively) successful times come. Hence finishing 17th in the CCC, but averaging just short of 17,000 for the first year back.

But a transient maximum of 17'000 is not a huge figure in terms of seeing yourselves as a club with realistic Premiership ambitions in the modern era, if you factor in the fairweather bounce that almost all clubs receive in the first flush of success. The pattern of your attendances doesn't suggest that most of Cornwall is the slightest bit interested in seeing Argyle play in the championship.

Quote :

The biggest city in Europe never to have played top-flight football in their domestic league.

Again this is a bogus statistic, which is probably based on the usual artificial measure of your population within the city boundaries. This skews the data towards Plymouth (and Exeter for that matter) due to its unusual lack of a conurbation.

Anyway in France alone, Orleans, Dunkerque, Béthune, and Perpignan all have larger Urban/Metropolitan areas than Plymouth and I believe none of them have ever played top flight football. Even if your statistic were true it would be meaningless, since it ignores the total population of each country involved in the comparison and the way in which that population is distributed.

The UK has one of the largest populations in Europe, therefore there are likely to be many more cities over a given size - and therefore a higher statistical probability that a city over said size will have never had a team in it's football top flight, given a similar number of top division clubs.

To take an extreme example, I doubt if there are any football clubs in Iceland whatsoever who have never played top-flight football, given that the entire population is less than half a million to begin with. To give a less reductio ad absurdum example, there are many nations in Europe of only around 10 million or below, including major football nations such as Portugal. In some of those countries the great majority live in just a few cities, so again it would be very difficult to find many Urban Areas equal in size to Plymouth's in the first place. Consequently you would expect all those that do exist to have played in the top division of their country almost automatically.

As I keep saying, I'm afraid the myth of Argyle being based in an especially big city and therefore potentially being a big club in English football is based on skewed and misleading information about the relative size of Plymouth and is deeply unhelpful to those of you who want to set a realistic and sensible direction for the future, instead of the almost manic desire to find a billionaire owner to throw money at the club. (Ironically I supect the Reluctant Bidder is not all that far off being a billionaire, but I suspect hell will freeze over before he throws any of his money at PAFC).

Quote :

That statistical fact alone would point to the conclusion that Argyle dreaming of the Prem, is considerably less laughable than Exeter dreaming of the Championship.

I disagree. As I've demonstrated, your premise is based on false statistics. It is also based on flawed logic.

There is a much greater gulf between the Championship and the Premiership than there is between League 1 and the Championship. Furthermore, there are usually nowhere near as many clubs with the resources to blow small teams out of the water in League 1 as there routinely is in League 1. That was true even in our time in League 1 - probably the period when the Division was at its toughest for many years, when the likes of Norwich, Leeds, Southampton, Charlton and even the likes of Huddersfield and Brighton, were absolutely dwarfing our support and/or available funds. If we hadn't suffered the most unbelievable injury crisis last season, I'm convinced we would have stayed up and the bulk of our competitors would much closer to our level this season.

It seems to me that you are never going to see as relatively poor a Championship as League 1 appears to be at the moment and there is no practical reason why that scenario should not arise at some time in the future. Therefore I think that there is certainly at least a very long shot of us getting to the Championship for a season or two at some point, if all circumstances are favourable. After all the Championship has never been the fortress that the Premier League has - the much lower number of teams that have played there than in the Championship should tell you that.

On the other hand getting to the Premier League is a monumental task and IMO things are being deliberately engineered to make it even harder for the outsiders, by creating a revolving door of a few clubs where the funding available from a season or two in the Premiership entrenches their position. That's why I genuinely believe that you are wrong. While I've accepted that City playing in the Championship is a long shot, I do not believe that there is any realistic prospect of clubs in your position getting to the Premier League in future whatsoever - by which I mean a club of your size and the resources available to you, as well as your current position in the League and the likely timetable of any turnaround. I'm not particularly singling you out for purposes of banter - I include the likes of Bradford in that too.

Greenskin wrote:

...Agreed that we'll agree to disagree,especially on your last few paragraphs which tot up to a load of half baked pseudo nonsense.IMHO,of course.

It was impossible to decipher your post because of the odd way you randomly used the quote function correctly and then incorrectly. From what I saw you answered none of my substantive points about the bogus statistic of Plymouth's population often used by proponents of the idea that Plymouth has Premier League potential.

The reply about "half-baked pseudo nonsense" was very illuminating though. In my experience when people resort to such abuse, it's because they can't come up with a convincing argument. However if that's the way you like to behave then knock yourself out.

Thing is, I don't think anyone is actually screaming about us getting to the Premier League any time soon, are they?

It obviously gets the back up of a couple of your fans, when the slightest wiff of any potential we have as regards the "P" word, is mentioned. One of your fans gets borderline hysterical about it, which I have to confess is rather amusing...

Your opinion, as you stated is that you don't think clubs in our position will ever get to the Prem. That's fine. I'm in no doubt Blackpool fans would have thought their chances of getting there was a pipe dream, when they were bookies favourites to finish bottom, yes, bottom of the CCC. When Swansea escaped extinction to non-league a few years back, you'd have been carted off to the funny farm if you'd forecast what would happen to them since.

Bottom line - we can all apply common sense theories and logic in football. It's meaningless really, because the unexpected happens in virtually every league, every season.

One last thing, only Greenjock has license to pen musings of over 10,000 words ; plus selective quoting to try and hammer home any particular point you're keen to make, can get tedious after a while. It was a little ironic that you pull Greenskin up on selective quoting, when you actually had one of my postings as being written by him, in one of your selective quoting posts. (See what I mean, it is quite tedious)

Cheers Jabs

jabba the gut ecfc wrote:

Greenskin wrote:

...Agreed that we'll agree to disagree,especially on your last few paragraphs which tot up to a load of half baked pseudo nonsense.IMHO,of course.

It was impossible to decipher your post because of the odd way you randomly used the quote function correctly and then incorrectly. From what I saw you answered none of my substantive points about the bogus statistic of Plymouth's population often used by proponents of the idea that Plymouth has Premier League potential.

The reply about "half-baked pseudo nonsense" was very illuminating though. In my experience when people resort to such abuse, it's because they can't come up with a convincing argument. However if that's the way you like to behave then knock yourself out.

You're absolutely right in the second paragraph of your post about resorting to abuse of course.In the interests of fairness,would you also not be obliged to put Lord Tisdale right when he said in the first line of a reply to one of my posts;

"Wow, thanks for the geography lesson, but you are full of shiite".

Just wondering like.

Greenskin wrote:

You're absolutely right in the second paragraph of your post about resorting to abuse of course.In the interests of fairness,would you also not be obliged to put Lord Tisdale right when he said in the first line of a reply to one of my posts;

"Wow, thanks for the geography lesson, but you are full of shiite".

Just wondering like.

Why would I need be put right ?

Your post was a barrel of condescending shiite and I called you for it, I can't be arsed to get involved in the kind of asinine assumption fests that you and the Jab seem so happy to indulge in, there is no unequivocal right or wrong answer to the whys and wherefores, just opinions.

Having lived and worked in both Southampton and Portsmouth I have formed the opinion that both cities are isolated, introverted and that devotees of one would rather try to swim around the IoW non stop in the middle of winter than go to see the other. You can hold the alternate view that there is a large cross over element present, that is your right and everybody has the right to be wrong, it's just that some do seem to abuse that privilege.

Lord Tisdale wrote:

Greenskin wrote:

You're absolutely right in the second paragraph of your post about resorting to abuse of course.In the interests of fairness,would you also not be obliged to put Lord Tisdale right when he said in the first line of a reply to one of my posts;

"Wow, thanks for the geography lesson, but you are full of shiite".

Just wondering like.

Why would I need be put right ?

Your post was a barrel of condescending shiite and I called you for it, I can't be arsed to get involved in the kind of asinine assumption fests that you and the Jab seem so happy to indulge in, there is no unequivocal right or wrong answer to the whys and wherefores, just opinions.

Having lived and worked in both Southampton and Portsmouth I have formed the opinion that both cities are isolated, introverted and that devotees of one would rather try to swim around the IoW non stop in the middle of winter than go to see the other. You can hold the alternate view that there is a large cross over element present, that is your right and everybody has the right to be wrong, it's just that some do seem to abuse that privilege.

Didn't mean to be condescending at all.Must be something in the deep murk of your psyche to take it that way.Never mind.

Greenskin wrote:

Didn't mean to be condescending at all.Must be something in the deep murk of your psyche to take it that way.Never mind.

Of course you did, and implying that people might have serious psychological issues just because they question your position really isn't very nice.

Never mind eh.

Lord Tisdale wrote:

Greenskin wrote:

Didn't mean to be condescending at all.Must be something in the deep murk of your psyche to take it that way.Never mind.

Of course you did, and implying that people might have serious psychological issues just because they question your position really isn't very nice.

Never mind eh.

Lord Twistdale,of course i wasn't suggesting that you have psychological issues,you silly chap!Just that your subconscious mind may have brought forth the embittered underdog syndrome to react in the way you did to one of my previous posts,thats all.Honestly,i really don't care whether you question my position or not,it matters to me about as much as your shitty little club does,a point of view which i do believe has been truthfully expressed to you by myself before.If coming on here really upsets you to that degree,then i would respectfully suggest that you run along back to Exeweb and stay there.

There's this little gem from Exeweb to lighten the mood.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Some classic contributions from GOB n Nool.....................and Wozzer is on fire.

Grecian Max thinks he called it and of course, depending on which way you look at the events of the last 7yrs he does have a point. Then again, had we not had people like Woz n Nool worshipping and silencing critics of our outclassed, greedy accountant and his chums, we might just have found the investment necessary to back Pulis or Holloway.

As Greenskin points out, for a club with no top flight history, a 16k first season attendance average in the Championship compares very favourably with other clubs who have gone on to make the Premiership.
As for City, historically and given the 'normal' league status of the clubs [us tier2/3, them tier 3/4] we double their attendance figures. I do however now fear for the future, as Exeter has more going for it as a city in many ways and at our place, the lunatics have taken over the asylum.

Greenskin wrote:

jabba the gut ecfc wrote:

Greenskin wrote:

...Agreed that we'll agree to disagree,especially on your last few paragraphs which tot up to a load of half baked pseudo nonsense.IMHO,of course.

It was impossible to decipher your post because of the odd way you randomly used the quote function correctly and then incorrectly. From what I saw you answered none of my substantive points about the bogus statistic of Plymouth's population often used by proponents of the idea that Plymouth has Premier League potential.

The reply about "half-baked pseudo nonsense" was very illuminating though. In my experience when people resort to such abuse, it's because they can't come up with a convincing argument. However if that's the way you like to behave then knock yourself out.

You're absolutely right in the second paragraph of your post about resorting to abuse of course.In the interests of fairness,would you also not be obliged to put Lord Tisdale right when he said in the first line of a reply to one of my posts;

"Wow, thanks for the geography lesson, but you are full of shiite".

Just wondering like.

I didn't mention it, because it wasn't directed at me, although you're probably right. "Lord Tisdale" wouldn't take any notice anyway - he knows my opinion of his tendency to be abusive on forums. I don't think he needs to do it, because he's a very intelligent guy who could more than hold his own in a debate without that kind of nonsense. In fact you might be surprised to know that my cataplastic friend is actually a very nice guy in real-life. I'm sure those he's fired vitriolic electrons at in the past would be surprised that they liked him if they met him.

Anyway Greenskin, don't take my opinions to heart. I'm just calling the situation as I see it. It's not because you're Greens, I'd say the same things if the club in question was in Burkina Faso.

One of the reasons I post on here, is that this forum seems to be far less afflicted by the personal attacks and abuse that destroyed exeweb, so I'd prefer it if we could disagree amicably.

You have a PM by the way.

jabba the gut ecfc wrote:

Greenskin wrote:

jabba the gut ecfc wrote:

Greenskin wrote:

...Agreed that we'll agree to disagree,especially on your last few paragraphs which tot up to a load of half baked pseudo nonsense.IMHO,of course.

It was impossible to decipher your post because of the odd way you randomly used the quote function correctly and then incorrectly. From what I saw you answered none of my substantive points about the bogus statistic of Plymouth's population often used by proponents of the idea that Plymouth has Premier League potential.

The reply about "half-baked pseudo nonsense" was very illuminating though. In my experience when people resort to such abuse, it's because they can't come up with a convincing argument. However if that's the way you like to behave then knock yourself out.

You're absolutely right in the second paragraph of your post about resorting to abuse of course.In the interests of fairness,would you also not be obliged to put Lord Tisdale right when he said in the first line of a reply to one of my posts;

"Wow, thanks for the geography lesson, but you are full of shiite".

Just wondering like.

I didn't mention it, because it wasn't directed at me, although you're probably right. "Lord Tisdale" wouldn't take any notice anyway - he knows my opinion of his tendency to be abusive on forums. I don't think he needs to do it, because he's a very intelligent guy who could more than hold his own in a debate without that kind of nonsense. In fact you might be surprised to know that my cataplastic friend is actually a very nice guy in real-life. I'm sure those he's fired vitriolic electrons at in the past would be surprised that they liked him if they met him.

Anyway Greenskin, don't take my opinions to heart. I'm just calling the situation as I see it. It's not because you're Greens, I'd say the same things if the club in question was in Burkina Faso.

One of the reasons I post on here, is that this forum seems to be far less afflicted by the personal attacks and abuse that destroyed exeweb, so I'd prefer it if we could disagree amicably.

You have a PM by the way.

Er,i don't actually.

Lord Tisdale wrote:

Greenskin wrote:

Only Pompey,eh? I lived in that area for a while and believe me"only Pompey"provide very stiff competition for support to Southampton.You would be mistaken to think that the respective support for the two clubs comes solely from within the two cities.There are also towns such as Winchester,Basingstoke,Salisbury,Andover,Aldershot etc all within relatively easy reach of Southampton/Portsmouth and who would contain a fair amount of floating support attracted to the club which would be doing the best at any given time.Pompey's gates have declined by around 7000 per match since their high peak,Southampton's gates have increased by about 13000 since their nadir-you can bet your bottom dollar that many of those 13000 would have stayed with Pompey had they managed to build their ground to a bigger capacity and remained in the premier league.You also forget the Reading factor as well-they would also provide a very attractive proposition,at least temporarily,for any football supporter seeking only the best standard of football available in that catchment area.So i would say that Southampton are far from isolated and lacking in competition-in fact you could also factor in the rise of Brighton in recent years as well if you analysed the demographics really deeply.

Wow, thanks for the geography lesson, but you are full of shiite. Southampton's support comes from all of those towns listed and more, because they are the only team people from the greater Hampshire area relate to at all, Pompey's support comes from the Island and those dead heads that have emigrated as far as Waterlooville or Cowplain.

But if by some miracle you were even close to right wouldn't that make PAFC look like an even bigger loser club when they still can't get more than 7k in despite being the old league club in Cornwall ?

tw@t

Apolgies for dragging this thread up again, but I missed the end of it and so failed to notice Czarcasm's little dig.

Czarcasm wrote:

Thing is, I don't think anyone is actually screaming about us getting to the Premier League any time soon, are they?

It obviously gets the back up of a couple of your fans, when the slightest wiff of any potential we have as regards the "P" word, is mentioned. One of your fans gets borderline hysterical about it...

It doesn't get my back up - especially given that I think there is very little chance of it happening. My problem with the yearning for the Promised Land that seems so acute in large sections of your fanbase, is that IMO it's leading you down a succession of blind alleys. It seems to me that this desperation is at the root of your fruitless trawl through a succession of sugar-daddies in the hope of finding The One who will fulfill your heart's desires. Ultimately it is this process which has landed Brent at your door, to be worshipped as the Messiah by a depressingly significant proportion of your fanbase. This longing for a hero-king is a phenomenon Brent has used to play you like a fiddle.

I suspect this attitude also forms part of the motivation for the way in which Webb, Newell and co have colluded with Brent to undermine any hope of a strong Supporters' Trust. I hear that Newell often posted on Exeweb, vehemently opposing any idea of you following our path, precisely because he (correctly) felt that it would be far more difficult to reach the Premiership as a fan-owned club in the current circumstances. He's not alone - that often seems to be the tone of the arguments against the Trust that I see on Pasoti ("Fan ownership is only good for tin-pot clubs like Exeter") and so on. Interestingly Swansea are effectively a fan-owned club - or at least they were for a good period. As I understand it, the 75% non-Trust shareholding was owned by a collection of fans who stepped in to help the Trust save the club - it wasn't a case of a Sugar-daddy with a Trust in tow, a la Brentford (whose Trust was mainly there to safeguard the Ground in any case). I'm not sure if Swansea's ownership is still the same, however I do know that their lovely revenue-generating ground was only funded by the Council because the club was fan-owned (regardless of the involvement of the Rugby club) they have made that quite clear. I would have thought that should be food for thought given your situation.

Quote :

...which I have to confess is rather amusing...

I suspect if you were really that nonchalant and were genuinely amused, you wouldn't feel the need to make such a patronising comment.

Quote :

Your opinion, as you stated is that you don't think clubs in our position will ever get to the Prem. That's fine. I'm in no doubt Blackpool fans would have thought their chances of getting there was a pipe dream, when they were bookies favourites to finish bottom, yes, bottom of the CCC. When Swansea escaped extinction to non-league a few years back, you'd have been carted off to the funny farm if you'd forecast what would happen to them since...

You seem to have missed the point as well as everyone else. To repeat, I'm not claiming that you never had a chance to get to the Premiership in the past like the clubs you mentioned; I'm saying that by the time you are in a position to even think about it in the future the bigger clubs will have finally engineered a de facto closed shop, if not a de jure one. Sheepshanks et al stated quite clearly that was what they wanted for at least the two top divisions. In any case, there may not even be a Premier League as we know it in the medium to long-term, the way some clubs have been talking for the past couple of years.

Other fans and clubs seem to recognise the danger, so I don't understand why Argyle fans seem so particularly "Three Wise Monkeys" about this. I was reading a thread on an Ipswich forum where they were discussing just this subject and largely agreeing that they may find themselves excluded from the coming closed shop - I would hope even you would accept that Ipswich are a significantly bigger club. I also heard the Barnsley Chairman, on a Radio Sheffield Phone-In called "Praise And Grumble" (thanks to the Tune-In App) pointing out that it is rapidly getting to the stage when they will not be able to compete even in the Championship, as more and more clubs dropping into the second tier are doped to the eyeballs with parachute payments and their share of the huge Premier League TV and merchandising contracts coming into play. I think the figure of 12 clubs was mentioned as being in receipt of 12 million pounds a year before the directors even get out of bed in the morning - and that doesn't include the likes of Leeds United.

Quote :

Bottom line - we can all apply common sense theories and logic in football. It's meaningless really, because the unexpected happens in virtually every league, every season.

I tend to find that applying common sense and logic is usually the best way to plan and make decisions. Ironically it seems to me that an absence of common sense and logic and the taking of reckless gambles is what got you into this mess in the first place.

Of course you are correct that the unexpected happens, but that is ignoring the fact that some possibilities are more remote than others. Since the Premier League was founded, we've seen the injection of hitherto unforeseen sums into the top clubs, then a reduction in the number of clubs, then the increased parachute payments and latterly the massive TV contract. Each step reduces the probability of clubs beating the odds as a result of both the immediate short-term effects of the increased profile and funding and the long-term effects of the accumulation of those advantages. Moreover, I very much doubt it will end there.

Quote :

One last thing, only Greenjock has license to pen musings of over 10,000 words ; plus selective quoting to try and hammer home any particular point you're keen to make, can get tedious after a while.

And thinly-veiled ad hominems get childish immediately. If you are that bothered about the content, style and length of my posts it might be best if you ignore them in future. Of course if they've broken some rule or other of the board, then feel free to report me to the moderators.

To my knowledge I haven't selectively quoted, so I would be grateful if you could show me exactly where I've done this in order to deliberately mislead, which seems to be your accusation.

Quote :

It was a little ironic that you pull Greenskin up on selective quoting, when you actually had one of my postings as being written by him, in one of your selective quoting posts. (See what I mean, it is quite tedious)

Well to be pedantic, if I had done what you accuse me of it wouldn't be ironic at all - it would be hypocritical. Are you from the United States by any chance?

If I incorrectly attributed a quote to Greenskin that should have been attributed to you, then that is a mistake, not an example of selective quoting. You seem to be implying that the factual accuracy of the quote - and therefore my response - was dependent on who originally wrote it. That seems like a pretty eccentric view to me, but unless you tell me which quote this mix-up involved I have no idea whether your attack is fair or not.

Cheers Czar.

jabba the gut ecfc wrote:

You have a PM by the way.

Greenskin wrote:

Er,i don't actually.

Apologies - I confused you with Greenjock.

jabba the gut ecfc wrote:

Apologies - I confused you with Greenjock.

Way to win friends and influence people.

Now this is why I like football, we're all just cnuts!

when the scummers get abuse on here isnt lovely to tring panic and try and change the subject,,awwwwww,,,he loves a scummer old tringy

exeter could reach the championship if they found investment from outside the fanstrust and finally moved out of st james park..

Why city and cheifs never went into partnership over the building and design of sandy park to suit both i think that would have been a weight holding them down gone.

Such eloquence and style

how sweet,,the red slip showing again,,pass the sick bucket