Why the exeter boycott?

Tringreen wrote:

Every passing decade and missed opportunity makes a spell in the top flight more difficult to achieve.

As long as we get rid of the dimwits and their banker, the club will rise again and maybe, just maybe, the potential will be realised, if someone with enough cash to burn , recognises it and buys in.

"difficult" ?

Dream on sucker !

It would hardly be realising the club's "potential" if a money bags bought some success, that Shirley is realising the potential of a few million quid ?

PAFC will never be a Norwich or a Southampton, both of whom benefit from their isolation, you need to readdress your aims and objectives to becoming the No.1 club in Devon rather than the club with a bit of residual support that celebrates nicking a point off the City like they have won the Cup. Gonna be a real scrap down there at the bottom, that's what you should focus on, not day dreaming about being something you never were.

The Premier League to us, is, in effect, the Championship to you, Jabba. We've both never got there. If we're splitting hairs, we've actually come a lot closer to breaking our glass ceiling than you, if finishing 8th in the 3rd Div is the best you've ever achieved.

On the rivalry thing, I think it's pretty much a given that Torquay see you as their main rivals. In turn, you see us (historically) as your main rivals. As far as Argyle fans go, I reckon if you did an ATD poll on who we see as our rivals, Exeter would probably trail in behind Portsmouth (the naval thing) and Bristol City. The latter especially, as apart from them having had one season in the top flight, we've both equally under-achieved for the size of the cities.

In turn Pompey and Bristol City would have S'ton and Rovers/Cardiff as their main rival respectively, so quite often a rivalry is one-sided, to an extent.

Lord Tisdale wrote:

Tringreen wrote:

Every passing decade and missed opportunity makes a spell in the top flight more difficult to achieve.

As long as we get rid of the dimwits and their banker, the club will rise again and maybe, just maybe, the potential will be realised, if someone with enough cash to burn , recognises it and buys in.

"difficult" ?

Dream on sucker !

It would hardly be realising the club's "potential" if a money bags bought some success, that Shirley is realising the potential of a few million quid ?

PAFC will never be a Norwich or a Southampton, both of whom benefit from their isolation, you need to readdress your aims and objectives to becoming the No.1 club in Devon rather than the club with a bit of residual support that celebrates nicking a point off the City like they have won the Cup. Gonna be a real scrap down there at the bottom, that's what you should focus on, not day dreaming about being something you never were.

In what way are Southampton isolated and how have they benefitted from it?

Greenskin wrote:

In what way are Southampton isolated and how have they benefitted from it?

Er, nowhere near any competition for their support. Have you never seen the thirteen fingered yokels parking their tractors at St. Marys ?

Admittedly they are not as middle of nowhere as you lot and they have actually got some history but they only have Pompey on their Radar so not much crossover support there, that fact allowed them to keep 20k plus crowds while they struggled in the 3rd div, big crowds make life a lot easier, the big clubs always bounce.

That's all I am saying.

Tringreen wrote:

You may well be correct Jabba. We did have our latest chance again with Holloway but even then personal greed and self promotion took over.
It may now be too many decades down the road but as Greenskin oft points out, we were at least as well supported as the likes of Norwich , Southampton and Ipswich before they gained 'lift off' through top flight exposure. Once a region has belief and the T shirt, so to speak, the fans keep coming back. I warned as much when our now superfans were laughing at the struggles of the likes of Norwich , Forest, Leeds and the Saints when we were cruising along under Holloway. They silenced warning voices then and they're still trying to do the same now.

I think some of you have to accept that you're talking about a totally different era - It as almost as useful to argue that Sheffield FC or Corinthian Casuals could rise again because they were once a force in elite football.In those days the money necessary for success was a fraction of what is now and was shared more equally as well. In this environment and with low wages and restrictive contracts, a bit of judicious mangement, clever scouting of players, a decent academy and a bit of good fortune could give you a leg-up to the top division and success, laying the foundations for generations to come that the likes of Norwich, Southampton and Ipswich benefit from today. You maybe could have done what they did, but you didn't and you have to deal with the world as it is, not as it was then.

Barring a freakish set of circumstances, nobody is going to rise to the top table in that way again. Without the sort of fortune that very few men would be prepared to put into any football club, let alone an unglamorous, struggling club in the football backwater that is Devon, or a genuinely large and solid fanbase, then even if there is a glimmer of a chance now, in a few years even that will disappear. After all, this is no accident. The bigger clubs only dropped their demand for relegation and promotion from the Championship to be scrapped in return for the sort of financial arrangements that would miminise their prospects of being relegated and which would see the Premier League eventually consisting of a revolving door of a minority of clubs.

Quote :

Every passing decade and missed opportunity makes a spell in the top flight more difficult to achieve.
As long as we get rid of the dimwits and their banker, the club will rise again and maybe, just maybe, the potential will be realised, if someone with enough cash to burn , recognises it and buys in.

As I say, the sort of cash required to reach the Premier League is highly unlikely to find its way to these parts, Brent or no Brent.

Unless Argyle fans seriously believe they will be invited to join a European Super-League then this eternal yearning for the Premier League is a fool's errand in my opinion. If it even still exists as we know it, the Premier League will be a virtual closed shop. The last thing the powerful clubs want to be doing is playing smaller, unglamorous sides on an unpredictable basis. They have their eyes on the Croesus-like TV and sponsorship deals that will come with an American-style system, which I'm convinced is part of the reason why the mega-rich have started to buy into moribund top-tier clubs across Europe and funding them to success. Remember that an effective closed shop or revolving door of the few is not nearly so controversial in many countries - the UK is unique in the relative importance of it's lower league structure.

I genuinely believe that in the contemporary era this Premier League ambition you seem to have is wishful thinking that will do you more harm than good in the end. I supect it's the reason your version of supporter's leaders are so curiusly ambivalent about, if not hostile to, serious fan involvement - I'm told Ian Newell was adamantly opposed to the idea of Trust ownership on exeweb in any circumstances, precisely because of this misguided belief in Argyle as a potential Premier League club of today. It is also responsible for the fans desperation to believe in a succession of shady businessmen and why they are such easy marks as a result, like some lonely spinster, putting their faith in a succession of unfaithful men in a desperate attempt to find love.

It reminds me of the play The Cherry Orchard - the sisters squander their lives with idle dreams of living in Moscow, while the valuable things in life and the important things they could achieve are neglected and lost.

Without trying to re-write war and peace- I mean get a fooking life you lot- enjoy this whilst it lasts scummers, because last it won't. It may take a few years but it won't last.

Iggy wrote:

Without trying to re-write war and peace- I mean get a fooking life you lot- enjoy this whilst it lasts scummers, because last it won't. It may take a few years but it won't last.

Maybe not, but we'll enjoy it while it lasts. Even if you rise above us again, which is the least you should hope for, I very much doubt we'll be as far apart as was often the case in the past. I suspect the events of the past few years will have profound long-term implications for Argyle, especially if the Reluctant Bidder has his way.

Iggy wrote:

Without trying to re-write war and peace- I mean get a fooking life you lot- enjoy this whilst it lasts scummers, because last it won't. It may take a few years but it won't last.

"a few years" ?

Happy days.

Lord Tisdale wrote:

Greenskin wrote:

In what way are Southampton isolated and how have they benefitted from it?

Er, nowhere near any competition for their support. Have you never seen the thirteen fingered yokels parking their tractors at St. Marys ?

Admittedly they are not as middle of nowhere as you lot and they have actually got some history but they only have Pompey on their Radar so not much crossover support there, that fact allowed them to keep 20k plus crowds while they struggled in the 3rd div, big crowds make life a lot easier, the big clubs always bounce.

That's all I am saying.

Only Pompey,eh? I lived in that area for a while and believe me"only Pompey"provide very stiff competition for support to Southampton.You would be mistaken to think that the respective support for the two clubs comes solely from within the two cities.There are also towns such as Winchester,Basingstoke,Salisbury,Andover,Aldershot etc all within relatively easy reach of Southampton/Portsmouth and who would contain a fair amount of floating support attracted to the club which would be doing the best at any given time.Pompey's gates have declined by around 7000 per match since their high peak,Southampton's gates have increased by about 13000 since their nadir-you can bet your bottom dollar that many of those 13000 would have stayed with Pompey had they managed to build their ground to a bigger capacity and remained in the premier league.You also forget the Reading factor as well-they would also provide a very attractive proposition,at least temporarily,for any football supporter seeking only the best standard of football available in that catchment area.So i would say that Southampton are far from isolated and lacking in competition-in fact you could also factor in the rise of Brighton in recent years as well if you analysed the demographics really deeply.

jabba the gut ecfc wrote:

Tringreen wrote:

You may well be correct Jabba. We did have our latest chance again with Holloway but even then personal greed and self promotion took over.
It may now be too many decades down the road but as Greenskin oft points out, we were at least as well supported as the likes of Norwich , Southampton and Ipswich before they gained 'lift off' through top flight exposure. Once a region has belief and the T shirt, so to speak, the fans keep coming back. I warned as much when our now superfans were laughing at the struggles of the likes of Norwich , Forest, Leeds and the Saints when we were cruising along under Holloway. They silenced warning voices then and they're still trying to do the same now.

I think some of you have to accept that you're talking about a totally different era - It as almost as useful to argue that Sheffield FC or Corinthian Casuals could rise again because they were once a force in elite football.In those days the money necessary for success was a fraction of what is now and was shared more equally as well. In this environment and with low wages and restrictive contracts, a bit of judicious mangement, clever scouting of players, a decent academy and a bit of good fortune could give you a leg-up to the top division and success, laying the foundations for generations to come that the likes of Norwich, Southampton and Ipswich benefit from today. You maybe could have done what they did, but you didn't and you have to deal with the world as it is, not as it was then.

Barring a freakish set of circumstances, nobody is going to rise to the top table in that way again. Without the sort of fortune that very few men would be prepared to put into any football club, let alone an unglamorous, struggling club in the football backwater that is Devon, or a genuinely large and solid fanbase, then even if there is a glimmer of a chance now, in a few years even that will disappear. After all, this is no accident. The bigger clubs only dropped their demand for relegation and promotion from the Championship to be scrapped in return for the sort of financial arrangements that would miminise their prospects of being relegated and which would see the Premier League eventually consisting of a revolving door of a minority of clubs.

Quote :

Every passing decade and missed opportunity makes a spell in the top flight more difficult to achieve.
As long as we get rid of the dimwits and their banker, the club will rise again and maybe, just maybe, the potential will be realised, if someone with enough cash to burn , recognises it and buys in.

As I say, the sort of cash required to reach the Premier League is highly unlikely to find its way to these parts, Brent or no Brent.

Unless Argyle fans seriously believe they will be invited to join a European Super-League then this eternal yearning for the Premier League is a fool's errand in my opinion. If it even still exists as we know it, the Premier League will be a virtual closed shop. The last thing the powerful clubs want to be doing is playing smaller, unglamorous sides on an unpredictable basis. They have their eyes on the Croesus-like TV and sponsorship deals that will come with an American-style system, which I'm convinced is part of the reason why the mega-rich have started to buy into moribund top-tier clubs across Europe and funding them to success. Remember that an effective closed shop or revolving door of the few is not nearly so controversial in many countries - the UK is unique in the relative importance of it's lower league structure.

I genuinely believe that in the contemporary era this Premier League ambition you seem to have is wishful thinking that will do you more harm than good in the end. I supect it's the reason your version of supporter's leaders are so curiusly ambivalent about, if not hostile to, serious fan involvement - I'm told Ian Newell was adamantly opposed to the idea of Trust ownership on exeweb in any circumstances, precisely because of this misguided belief in Argyle as a potential Premier League club of today. It is also responsible for the fans desperation to believe in a succession of shady businessmen and why they are such easy marks as a result, like some lonely spinster, putting their faith in a succession of unfaithful men in a desperate attempt to find love.

It reminds me of the play The Cherry Orchard - the sisters squander their lives with idle dreams of living in Moscow, while the valuable things in life and the important things they could achieve are neglected and lost.

Swansea?

Czarcasm wrote:

The Premier League to us, is, in effect, the Championship to you, Jabba. We've both never got there. If we're splitting hairs, we've actually come a lot closer to breaking our glass ceiling than you, if finishing 8th in the 3rd Div is the best you've ever achieved...

I agree completely. If we could get one season in the Championship then I would die a happy man. I wouldn't be interested in the Premier League anyway. I still watch it sometimes, but I have a great deal of distaste for what it stands for. Any club that is happy to have a succession of corrupt politicians, gangster oligarchs and human rights abusing dictaors like Sinawatra, Arrobervitch and the Al-Nayhans as members is one I want no part of.

Quote :

On the rivalry thing, I think it's pretty much a given that Torquay see you as their main rivals. In turn, you see us (historically) as your main rivals. As far as Argyle fans go, I reckon if you did an ATD poll on who we see as our rivals, Exeter would probably trail in behind Portsmouth (the naval thing) and Bristol City. The latter especially, as apart from them having had one season in the top flight, we've both equally under-achieved for the size of the cities...

I'll take your word for the views of Argyle fans about us, although its certainly not my impression. Then again you are in a much better position to know the truth I suppose.

What I genuinely don't get is this argument that Argyle have regularly under-achieved. Is this based on the false - or at least misleading - statistic about the size of the City that many of your fans often repeat?

Whenever I hear this argument from Argyle fans, it seems to be based almost entirely on the official population within the City boundaries. However this is a completely artificial and meaningless statistic.

The adminstrative city boundaries are an arbitrary limit imposed for purposes of local government organisation. What you should be using to judge the relative size of Plymouth, within the parameters of the argument over the potential of the football club, is the Urban Area - i.e the area of continuously settled population around the centre. Based on the criteria used to state that Plymouth is the 15th biggest city in England or whatever, Manchester is a similar size to Sheffield, which is patently absurd.

Because Devon is a very rural and sparsely populated county, the city boundaries of its cities just happens to be more or less contiguous with their Urban Areas, but this is generally unusual. Most other reasonable sized cities have a conurbation - an urban sprawl if you like. Whereas many other Urban Areas have numerous contiguous areas, Plymouth only has Plymstock and Exeter has none at all - my mother lives 20 minutes walk from the city centre, but picture postcard Devon is right next door.

When you consider this criteria, Plymouth is not especially big at all - it's something like the 30th largest settlement in the country - and even then it is not very much bigger than the next ten or so down. For example, the Aldershot Urban Area is only a few hundred people less, which for practical purposes is nothing. Would you say Aldershot have historically under-achieved?

Similarly I don't understand the comparison with Bristol - it has an Urban Area significantly more than twice as large - from memory even its official poulation is almost twice that of Plymouth. Did I misunderstand that point? Were you saying that you have both historically underachieved in relative or absolute terms?

jabba the gut ecfc wrote:

Czarcasm wrote:

The Premier League to us, is, in effect, the Championship to you, Jabba. We've both never got there. If we're splitting hairs, we've actually come a lot closer to breaking our glass ceiling than you, if finishing 8th in the 3rd Div is the best you've ever achieved...

I agree completely. If we could get one season in the Championship then I would die a happy man. I wouldn't be interested in the Premier League anyway. I still watch it sometimes, but I have a great deal of distaste for what it stands for. Any club that is happy to have a succession of corrupt politicians, gangster oligarchs and human rights abusing dictaors like Sinawatra, Arrobervitch and the Al-Nayhans as members is one I want no part of.

Quote :

On the rivalry thing, I think it's pretty much a given that Torquay see you as their main rivals. In turn, you see us (historically) as your main rivals. As far as Argyle fans go, I reckon if you did an ATD poll on who we see as our rivals, Exeter would probably trail in behind Portsmouth (the naval thing) and Bristol City. The latter especially, as apart from them having had one season in the top flight, we've both equally under-achieved for the size of the cities...

I'll take your word for the views of Argyle fans about us, although its certainly not my impression. Then again you are in a much better position to know the truth I suppose.

What I genuinely don't get is this argument that Argyle have regularly under-achieved. Is this based on the false - or at least misleading - statistic about the size of the City that many of your fans often repeat?

Whenever I hear this argument from Argyle fans, it seems to be based almost entirely on the official population within the City boundaries. However this is a completely artificial and meaningless statistic.

The adminstrative city boundaries are an arbitrary limit imposed for purposes of local government organisation. What you should be using to judge the relative size of Plymouth, within the parameters of the argument over the potential of the football club, is the Urban Area - i.e the area of continuously settled population around the centre. Based on the criteria used to state that Plymouth is the 15th biggest city in England or whatever, Manchester is a similar size to Sheffield, which is patently absurd.

Because Devon is a very rural and sparsely populated county, the city boundaries of its cities just happens to be more or less contiguous with their Urban Areas, but this is generally unusual. Most other reasonable sized cities have a conurbation - an urban sprawl if you like. Whereas many other Urban Areas have numerous contiguous areas, Plymouth only has Plymstock and Exeter has none at all - my mother lives 20 minutes walk from the city centre, but picture postcard Devon is right next door.

When you consider this criteria, Plymouth is not especially big at all - it's something like the 30th largest settlement in the country - and even then it is not very much bigger than the next ten or so down. For example, the Aldershot Urban Area is only a few hundred people less, which for practical purposes is nothing. Would you say Aldershot have historically under-achieved?

Similarly I don't understand the comparison with Bristol - it has an Urban Area significantly more than twice as large - from memory even its official poulation is almost twice that of Plymouth. Did I misunderstand that point? Were you saying that you have both historically underachieved in relative or absolute terms?

The whole of Devon and Cornwall,[population 1.8 million,] constitutes the catchment area,not just Plymouth.And you could probably add a fair bit of Somerset to that if Argyle were to be truly successful.See my earlier post re Pompey,Southampton,Reading [not to mention the London clubs in pretty close proximity] for an answer to the Aldershot question.No valid comparison there really.

Greenskin wrote:

jabba the gut ecfc wrote:

Tringreen wrote:

You may well be correct Jabba. We did have our latest chance again with Holloway but even then personal greed and self promotion took over.
It may now be too many decades down the road but as Greenskin oft points out, we were at least as well supported as the likes of Norwich , Southampton and Ipswich before they gained 'lift off' through top flight exposure. Once a region has belief and the T shirt, so to speak, the fans keep coming back. I warned as much when our now superfans were laughing at the struggles of the likes of Norwich , Forest, Leeds and the Saints when we were cruising along under Holloway. They silenced warning voices then and they're still trying to do the same now.

I think some of you have to accept that you're talking about a totally different era - It as almost as useful to argue that Sheffield FC or Corinthian Casuals could rise again because they were once a force in elite football.In those days the money necessary for success was a fraction of what is now and was shared more equally as well. In this environment and with low wages and restrictive contracts, a bit of judicious mangement, clever scouting of players, a decent academy and a bit of good fortune could give you a leg-up to the top division and success, laying the foundations for generations to come that the likes of Norwich, Southampton and Ipswich benefit from today. You maybe could have done what they did, but you didn't and you have to deal with the world as it is, not as it was then.

Barring a freakish set of circumstances, nobody is going to rise to the top table in that way again. Without the sort of fortune that very few men would be prepared to put into any football club, let alone an unglamorous, struggling club in the football backwater that is Devon, or a genuinely large and solid fanbase, then even if there is a glimmer of a chance now, in a few years even that will disappear. After all, this is no accident. The bigger clubs only dropped their demand for relegation and promotion from the Championship to be scrapped in return for the sort of financial arrangements that would miminise their prospects of being relegated and which would see the Premier League eventually consisting of a revolving door of a minority of clubs.

Quote :

Every passing decade and missed opportunity makes a spell in the top flight more difficult to achieve.
As long as we get rid of the dimwits and their banker, the club will rise again and maybe, just maybe, the potential will be realised, if someone with enough cash to burn , recognises it and buys in.

As I say, the sort of cash required to reach the Premier League is highly unlikely to find its way to these parts, Brent or no Brent.

Unless Argyle fans seriously believe they will be invited to join a European Super-League then this eternal yearning for the Premier League is a fool's errand in my opinion. If it even still exists as we know it, the Premier League will be a virtual closed shop. The last thing the powerful clubs want to be doing is playing smaller, unglamorous sides on an unpredictable basis. They have their eyes on the Croesus-like TV and sponsorship deals that will come with an American-style system, which I'm convinced is part of the reason why the mega-rich have started to buy into moribund top-tier clubs across Europe and funding them to success. Remember that an effective closed shop or revolving door of the few is not nearly so controversial in many countries - the UK is unique in the relative importance of it's lower league structure.

I genuinely believe that in the contemporary era this Premier League ambition you seem to have is wishful thinking that will do you more harm than good in the end. I supect it's the reason your version of supporter's leaders are so curiusly ambivalent about, if not hostile to, serious fan involvement - I'm told Ian Newell was adamantly opposed to the idea of Trust ownership on exeweb in any circumstances, precisely because of this misguided belief in Argyle as a potential Premier League club of today. It is also responsible for the fans desperation to believe in a succession of shady businessmen and why they are such easy marks as a result, like some lonely spinster, putting their faith in a succession of unfaithful men in a desperate attempt to find love.

It reminds me of the play The Cherry Orchard - the sisters squander their lives with idle dreams of living in Moscow, while the valuable things in life and the important things they could achieve are neglected and lost.

Swansea?

Its Urban Area is bigger than Plymouth's, but admittedly not by a huge amount. However it is not as isolated geographically as Argyle - two of the largest cities in UK terms are within 30 or 40 miles and it has better transport links to London and the North/Midlands. I think a lot of people who spend most of their time in Devon fail to appreciate how remote people perceive us to be - and without having a dig, that's even more true for Plymouth. The lack of a motorway and whatnot has a disproportionate effect on people's perceptions. While that may be unfair, perception is all sometimes.

To give you an example, a few years ago we played Southport at a time I happened to be in Exeter. I had the idea to go, but balked when I realised that it would take SEVEN HOURS on the only remotely affordable route and that I would have to make it back to Liverpool for about 6-something. If I missed that train that would have been it until the next day.

I imagine Swansea benefit from that "National Pride" thing too. After all, it is one of the only two major clubs in an entire nation. It also probably benefits a little from the residual profile it has from its previous time in the top division. It seems to me that even though they have more of a chequered history than yourselves, the name "Swansea" carries more weight in the football world than "Plymouth" for most neutrals, but admittedly that's only based on anecdotal experience. Even if you disagree with many of those points and believe that the analogy with Swansea is more relevant than I do, it still doesn't defeat my argument - in fact the example of Swansea supports it.

They kicked on and invested in success at a time just on the cusp of the final period when such a thing was even within the bounds of possibility for a club of their size. I'm not arguing that you NEVER had a chance to get to the Premier League, or even that it would be totally out of the question if you were in a healthy state and estalished in the Championship now - I'm arguing that by the time you turn things around, the landscape will have changed even more than it has already done. Essentially, Swansea and Blackpool have got in before the stable door slams shut. You haven't - and barring an unlikely set of circumstances you won't.

Of course anything's possible - some youthful city fan, currently studying at Exeter College, might become the next Bill Gates, or invent time-travel and deceide he wants to help fund City to undreamed of heights. However as I say, it would be a fool's errand for those city fans who would be into that sort of thing to base all their hopes and dreams on such a freak scenario - and the same goes for you lot too.

I think some of the fans of both our clubs have a lot to learn from the self-awareness of the chipnickers.

Mock Cuncher wrote:

I like the away end at Exeter, and am jealous that they have the big bank whereas we have a fantastic disused terrace covered in weeds from neglect and non-use.

The Mayflower terrace is joining Bobby's garden as a designated conservation area. Another "football first"?

Greenskin wrote:

The Premier League to us, is, in effect, the Championship to you, Jabba. We've both never got there. If we're splitting hairs, we've actually come a lot closer to breaking our glass ceiling than you, if finishing 8th in the 3rd Div is the best you've ever achieved...

I agree completely. If we could get one season in the Championship then I would die a happy man. I wouldn't be interested in the Premier League anyway. I still watch it sometimes, but I have a great deal of distaste for what it stands for. Any club that is happy to have a succession of corrupt politicians, gangster oligarchs and human rights abusing dictaors like Sinawatra, Arrobervitch and the Al-Nayhans as members is one I want no part of.

Quote :

On the rivalry thing, I think it's pretty much a given that Torquay see you as their main rivals. In turn, you see us (historically) as your main rivals. As far as Argyle fans go, I reckon if you did an ATD poll on who we see as our rivals, Exeter would probably trail in behind Portsmouth (the naval thing) and Bristol City. The latter especially, as apart from them having had one season in the top flight, we've both equally under-achieved for the size of the cities...

I'll take your word for the views of Argyle fans about us, although its certainly not my impression. Then again you are in a much better position to know the truth I suppose.

What I genuinely don't get is this argument that Argyle have regularly under-achieved. Is this based on the false - or at least misleading - statistic about the size of the City that many of your fans often repeat?

Whenever I hear this argument from Argyle fans, it seems to be based almost entirely on the official population within the City boundaries. However this is a completely artificial and meaningless statistic.

The adminstrative city boundaries are an arbitrary limit imposed for purposes of local government organisation. What you should be using to judge the relative size of Plymouth, within the parameters of the argument over the potential of the football club, is the Urban Area - i.e the area of continuously settled population around the centre. Based on the criteria used to state that Plymouth is the 15th biggest city in England or whatever, Manchester is a similar size to Sheffield, which is patently absurd.

Because Devon is a very rural and sparsely populated county, the city boundaries of its cities just happens to be more or less contiguous with their Urban Areas, but this is generally unusual. Most other reasonable sized cities have a conurbation - an urban sprawl if you like. Whereas many other Urban Areas have numerous contiguous areas, Plymouth only has Plymstock and Exeter has none at all - my mother lives 20 minutes walk from the city centre, but picture postcard Devon is right next door.

When you consider this criteria, Plymouth is not especially big at all - it's something like the 30th largest settlement in the country - and even then it is not very much bigger than the next ten or so down. For example, the Aldershot Urban Area is only a few hundred people less, which for practical purposes is nothing. Would you say Aldershot have historically under-achieved?

Similarly I don't understand the comparison with Bristol - it has an Urban Area significantly more than twice as large - from memory even its official poulation is almost twice that of Plymouth. Did I misunderstand that point? Were you saying that you have both historically underachieved in relative or absolute terms?

Greenskin wrote:

The whole of Devon and Cornwall,[population 1.8 million,] constitutes the catchment area,not just Plymouth.And you could probably add a fair bit of Somerset to that if Argyle were to be truly successful.

I'm afraid the population of Devon and Cornwall etc is completely irrelevant for the purposes of this argument. It would only be a factor if you were IN the Premier League - however people would flock from all parts of Devon to watch any club within striking distance who were playing in the Premier League, even Torquay. The population of Devon and Cornwall is not going to manifest itself in sufficient numbers in the Championship or below to give you a realistic chance of getting to the Premier League by the time you might find yourself in the second tier again. That is the critical issue. Were huge numbers regularly turning up under Holloway? Were people flooding in from all parts of the region to watch Argyle then? I don't recall it. And what if you have a mediocre season or two? All the evidence suggests that your support in the modern era is relatively soft and transient - the core support is not hugely greater than it is now. Didn't you get around 10'000 on occasions a few years ago when you were struggling in Championship? I'm afraid that tells me a lot in terms of true potential to reach the Premier League in the changed world that is coming.

Quote :

See my earlier post re Pompey,Southampton,Reading [not to mention the London clubs in pretty close proximity] for an answer to the Aldershot question.No valid comparison there really.

It's a perfectly valid comparison. You can't base Argyle's potential on the pool of potential supporters in Plymouth and then ignore the fact that those other cities have a far greater pool on their doorstep (Portsmouth is one of the largest Urban Areas in the country). Nor can you ignore the other advantages those clubs have - i.e nowhere near as geographically isolated and thereby not perceived as operating in a remote backwater; a higher profile; in some cases a much higher core fanbase; and a record of top-flight involvement in the top division and national success.

Two of those clubs have won the FA cup in living memory. Portsmouth also won it once before - in my mother's generation - and have been Champions of England twice. I'm not aware of Argyle winning any major silverware and experiencing the consequent boost to the core support that at least two of those clubs benefitted from. To even begin to put yourselves in the same bracket makes no sense IMO, let alone to conclude that those clubs are some kind of example to Argyle. It reminds me of those City fans who ludicrously claim that we should be using Ipswich as an example of a similarly sized town that have achieved football success - completely ignoring that club's record of success and that among other things, it's only 70 miles or so from London.

jabba the gut ecfc wrote:

Greenskin wrote:

jabba the gut ecfc wrote:

Tringreen wrote:

You may well be correct Jabba. We did have our latest chance again with Holloway but even then personal greed and self promotion took over.
It may now be too many decades down the road but as Greenskin oft points out, we were at least as well supported as the likes of Norwich , Southampton and Ipswich before they gained 'lift off' through top flight exposure. Once a region has belief and the T shirt, so to speak, the fans keep coming back. I warned as much when our now superfans were laughing at the struggles of the likes of Norwich , Forest, Leeds and the Saints when we were cruising along under Holloway. They silenced warning voices then and they're still trying to do the same now.

I think some of you have to accept that you're talking about a totally different era - It as almost as useful to argue that Sheffield FC or Corinthian Casuals could rise again because they were once a force in elite football.In those days the money necessary for success was a fraction of what is now and was shared more equally as well. In this environment and with low wages and restrictive contracts, a bit of judicious mangement, clever scouting of players, a decent academy and a bit of good fortune could give you a leg-up to the top division and success, laying the foundations for generations to come that the likes of Norwich, Southampton and Ipswich benefit from today. You maybe could have done what they did, but you didn't and you have to deal with the world as it is, not as it was then.

Barring a freakish set of circumstances, nobody is going to rise to the top table in that way again. Without the sort of fortune that very few men would be prepared to put into any football club, let alone an unglamorous, struggling club in the football backwater that is Devon, or a genuinely large and solid fanbase, then even if there is a glimmer of a chance now, in a few years even that will disappear. After all, this is no accident. The bigger clubs only dropped their demand for relegation and promotion from the Championship to be scrapped in return for the sort of financial arrangements that would miminise their prospects of being relegated and which would see the Premier League eventually consisting of a revolving door of a minority of clubs.

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Every passing decade and missed opportunity makes a spell in the top flight more difficult to achieve.
As long as we get rid of the dimwits and their banker, the club will rise again and maybe, just maybe, the potential will be realised, if someone with enough cash to burn , recognises it and buys in.

As I say, the sort of cash required to reach the Premier League is highly unlikely to find its way to these parts, Brent or no Brent.

Unless Argyle fans seriously believe they will be invited to join a European Super-League then this eternal yearning for the Premier League is a fool's errand in my opinion. If it even still exists as we know it, the Premier League will be a virtual closed shop. The last thing the powerful clubs want to be doing is playing smaller, unglamorous sides on an unpredictable basis. They have their eyes on the Croesus-like TV and sponsorship deals that will come with an American-style system, which I'm convinced is part of the reason why the mega-rich have started to buy into moribund top-tier clubs across Europe and funding them to success. Remember that an effective closed shop or revolving door of the few is not nearly so controversial in many countries - the UK is unique in the relative importance of it's lower league structure.

I genuinely believe that in the contemporary era this Premier League ambition you seem to have is wishful thinking that will do you more harm than good in the end. I supect it's the reason your version of supporter's leaders are so curiusly ambivalent about, if not hostile to, serious fan involvement - I'm told Ian Newell was adamantly opposed to the idea of Trust ownership on exeweb in any circumstances, precisely because of this misguided belief in Argyle as a potential Premier League club of today. It is also responsible for the fans desperation to believe in a succession of shady businessmen and why they are such easy marks as a result, like some lonely spinster, putting their faith in a succession of unfaithful men in a desperate attempt to find love.

It reminds me of the play The Cherry Orchard - the sisters squander their lives with idle dreams of living in Moscow, while the valuable things in life and the important things they could achieve are neglected and lost.

Swansea?

Its Urban Area is bigger than Plymouth's, but admittedly not by a huge amount. However it is not as isolated geographically as Argyle - two of the largest cities in UK terms are within 30 or 40 miles and it has better transport links to London and the North/Midlands. I think a lot of people who spend most of their time in Devon fail to appreciate how remote people perceive us to be - and without having a dig, that's even more true for Plymouth. The lack of a motorway and whatnot has a disproportionate effect on people's perceptions. While that may be unfair, perception is all sometimes.

To give you an example, a few years ago we played Southport at a time I happened to be in Exeter. I had the idea to go, but balked when I realised that it would take SEVEN HOURS on the only remotely affordable route and that I would have to make it back to Liverpool for about 6-something. If I missed that train that would have been it until the next day.

I imagine Swansea benefit from that "National Pride" thing too. After all, it is one of the only two major clubs in an entire nation. It also probably benefits a little from the residual profile it has from its previous time in the top division. It seems to me that even though they have more of a chequered history than yourselves, the name "Swansea" carries more weight in the football world than "Plymouth" for most neutrals, but admittedly that's only based on anecdotal experience. Even if you disagree with many of those points and believe that the analogy with Swansea is more relevant than I do, it still doesn't defeat my argument - in fact the example of Swansea supports it.

They kicked on and invested in success at a time just on the cusp of the final period when such a thing was even within the bounds of possibility for a club of their size. I'm not arguing that you NEVER had a chance to get to the Premier League, or even that it would be totally out of the question if you were in a healthy state and estalished in the Championship now - I'm arguing that by the time you turn things around, the landscape will have changed even more than it has already done. Essentially, Swansea and Blackpool have got in before the stable door slams shut. You haven't - and barring an unlikely set of circumstances you won't.

Of course anything's possible - some youthful city fan, currently studying at Exeter College, might become the next Bill Gates, or invent time-travel and deceide he wants to help fund City to undreamed of heights. However as I say, it would be a fool's errand for those city fans who would be into that sort of thing to base all their hopes and dreams on such a freak scenario - and the same goes for you lot too.

I think some of the fans of both our clubs have a lot to learn from the self-awareness of the chipnickers.

Ah yes,the motorway argument.Makes you wonder why Exeter haven't scaled the heights since 1975 if a motorway plays such importance in a clubs fortunes.Don't think Norwich or Ipswich are M way connected,doesn't seem to have held them back.And i don't agree that in future it will be impossible for clubs to emerge and push on into the premier league.Millwall,on gates of 11000, are having a good go at the moment and i've no doubt that others will follow suit,especially if the fair play rules have any teeth whatsoever [which is admitttedly asking a lot].Even if they don't, it's well possible for clubs to implode and give others a chance to come through,as the examples of Portsmouth,Coventry ,Leeds,the two Sheffield clubs etc have demonstrated only too well in recent times.Whether one of the emergees will be Argyle,only time will tell.The single most important lesson to be learnt from Argyle's current plight is that the club MUST be properly equipped financially if and when we ever get back to the CCC. The seeds of our decline were sown when the requisite investment was not made in the squad in 2004/5,resulting in a batch of substandard players being signed who proved to be nothing more than salary soaking liabilities and caused subsequent loss of interest and dwindling crowds,which successive 10th place finishes failed to reignite.Is it possible? We'll see.If an all encompassing effort was made to try to obtain adequate funding but proved fruitless,then i'd hold my hands up and acknowledge that Argyle will always be CCC/League 1 club at best.Certainly welcome some pro active effort in this regard though,which was not made until too late last time.

Freathy wrote:

Mock Cuncher wrote:

I like the away end at Exeter, and am jealous that they have the big bank whereas we have a fantastic disused terrace covered in weeds from neglect and non-use.

The Mayflower terrace is joining Bobby's garden as a designated conservation area. Another "football first"?

Never mind, the Reluctant Bidder and his acolytes will probably claim it as a beautiful, wild, nature reserve - another piece of Akkeron philanthropy designed to benefit Argyle fans and the City of Plymouth itself.

"Is that a planning application that I see before me?"

"alea iacta est"

Yes this is all very exciting but why the shit crowd?

Sufferedsince68 wrote:

Yes this is all very exciting but why the shit crowd?

As ive said before..be very careful when besmirching the Exeter support, another season of garbage from Fletcher without any sign of change from the clowns in the boardroom or the non investing specky banker.

Budget 0n 3-4k crowds next season ...mark my words

jabba the gut ecfc wrote:

Greenskin wrote:

The whole of Devon and Cornwall,[population 1.8 million,] constitutes the catchment area,not just Plymouth.And you could probably add a fair bit of Somerset to that if Argyle were to be truly successful.

I'm afraid the population of Devon and Cornwall etc is completely irrelevant for the purposes of this argument. It would only be a factor if you were IN the Premier League - however people would flock from all parts of Devon to watch any club within striking distance who were playing in the Premier League, even Torquay. The population of Devon and Cornwall is not going to manifest itself in sufficient numbers in the Championship or below to give you a realistic chance of getting to the Premier League by the time you might find yourself in the second tier again. That is the critical issue. Were huge numbers regularly turning up under Holloway? Were people flooding in from all parts of the region to watch Argyle then? I don't recall it. And what if you have a mediocre season or two? All the evidence suggests that your support in the modern era is relatively soft and transient - the core support is not hugely greater than it is now. Didn't you get around 10'000 on occasions a few years ago when you were struggling in Championship? I'm afraid that tells me a lot in terms of true potential to reach the Premier League in the changed world that is coming.

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See my earlier post re Pompey,Southampton,Reading [not to mention the London clubs in pretty close proximity] for an answer to the Aldershot question.No valid comparison there really.

It's a perfectly valid comparison. You can't base Argyle's potential on the pool of potential supporters in Plymouth and then ignore the fact that those other cities have a far greater pool on their doorstep (Portsmouth is one of the largest Urban Areas in the country). Nor can you ignore the other advantages those clubs have - i.e nowhere near as geographically isolated and thereby not perceived as operating in a remote backwater; a higher profile; in some cases a much higher core fanbase; and a record of top-flight involvement in the top division and national success.

Two of those clubs have won the FA cup in living memory. Portsmouth also won it once before - in my mother's generation - and have been Champions of England twice. I'm not aware of Argyle winning any major silverware and experiencing the consequent boost to the core support that at least two of those clubs benefitted from. To even begin to put yourselves in the same bracket makes no sense IMO, let alone to conclude that those clubs are some kind of example to Argyle. It reminds me of those City fans who ludicrously claim that we should be using Ipswich as an example of a similarly sized town that have achieved football success - completely ignoring that club's record of success and that among other things, it's only 70 miles or so from London.

Of course it isn't irrelevant.The catchment area is the catchment area whatever league you're in-i agree,it applies to Exeter and Torquay as well but by your admission,neither club is ever likely to reach the second tier which would seem to narrow down the field of who is best equipped to tap into that potential fanbase somewhat.Argyle averaged 16400 in the first season back in the CCC,better than Swansea,Cardiff and Bristol City to watch a team that finished 17th in the division,far worse than those clubs achieved.Does that not say something to you? Why do think Argyle's gate dwindled so badly? Ever heard of momentum? See my earlier post as to why we lost our fanbase and failed to develop it.I absolutely agree that in comparison to Ipswich,Norwich,Saints etc our fanbase IS soft and transient and have been saying so for years,rather than trot out the "apathetic janner" mantra.Tring will confirm this and will also confirm that that the most obvious reason for this phenomenon is that Argyle have never actually reached the top flight and given themselves a chance to cement the fanbase-see my post at 6.15 today.

I think you misunderstood my statement that there is no valid comparison between Aldershot and Argyle.My argument was that Aldershot have many clubs playing at a far higher level within easy reach of the Aldershot urban area,that is why i drew attention to Southampton,Portsmouth,Reading and the London clubs-as i said in an earlier post,i lived in the area for some time and can well understand how prospective football goers would choose those clubs rather than Aldershot,which would make it very difficult for them to make serious progress.Not having a dig at your club but Argyle have never really had the problem of attractive close competitors a la Aldershot,although it has to be said that the attraction of a good session in the pub watching a premier league game is a strong one for many.Understandably so,in fairness.

jabba the gut ecfc wrote:

Czarcasm wrote:

The Premier League to us, is, in effect, the Championship to you, Jabba. We've both never got there. If we're splitting hairs, we've actually come a lot closer to breaking our glass ceiling than you, if finishing 8th in the 3rd Div is the best you've ever achieved...

I agree completely. If we could get one season in the Championship then I would die a happy man. I wouldn't be interested in the Premier League anyway. I still watch it sometimes, but I have a great deal of distaste for what it stands for. Any club that is happy to have a succession of corrupt politicians, gangster oligarchs and human rights abusing dictaors like Sinawatra, Arrobervitch and the Al-Nayhans as members is one I want no part of.

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On the rivalry thing, I think it's pretty much a given that Torquay see you as their main rivals. In turn, you see us (historically) as your main rivals. As far as Argyle fans go, I reckon if you did an ATD poll on who we see as our rivals, Exeter would probably trail in behind Portsmouth (the naval thing) and Bristol City. The latter especially, as apart from them having had one season in the top flight, we've both equally under-achieved for the size of the cities...

I'll take your word for the views of Argyle fans about us, although its certainly not my impression. Then again you are in a much better position to know the truth I suppose.

What I genuinely don't get is this argument that Argyle have regularly under-achieved. Is this based on the false - or at least misleading - statistic about the size of the City that many of your fans often repeat?

Whenever I hear this argument from Argyle fans, it seems to be based almost entirely on the official population within the City boundaries. However this is a completely artificial and meaningless statistic.

The adminstrative city boundaries are an arbitrary limit imposed for purposes of local government organisation. What you should be using to judge the relative size of Plymouth, within the parameters of the argument over the potential of the football club, is the Urban Area - i.e the area of continuously settled population around the centre. Based on the criteria used to state that Plymouth is the 15th biggest city in England or whatever, Manchester is a similar size to Sheffield, which is patently absurd.

Because Devon is a very rural and sparsely populated county, the city boundaries of its cities just happens to be more or less contiguous with their Urban Areas, but this is generally unusual. Most other reasonable sized cities have a conurbation - an urban sprawl if you like. Whereas many other Urban Areas have numerous contiguous areas, Plymouth only has Plymstock and Exeter has none at all - my mother lives 20 minutes walk from the city centre, but picture postcard Devon is right next door.

When you consider this criteria, Plymouth is not especially big at all - it's something like the 30th largest settlement in the country - and even then it is not very much bigger than the next ten or so down. For example, the Aldershot Urban Area is only a few hundred people less, which for practical purposes is nothing. Would you say Aldershot have historically under-achieved?

Similarly I don't understand the comparison with Bristol - it has an Urban Area significantly more than twice as large - from memory even its official poulation is almost twice that of Plymouth. Did I misunderstand that point? Were you saying that you have both historically underachieved in relative or absolute terms?

The comparison with Bristol is fairly self-explanatory. Bristol is around 75% bigger than Plymouth. I'm guessing their surrounding area constitutes a fair amount of their fanbase too. But of course, they have two League clubs vying for support. Traditionally the split is around 60% City, 40% Rovers, I believe. But it's probably more like 65%-35% or even 70%-30% when the teams are poles apart.(That's irrelevant to my point, but I digress)

So generally speaking, we are three clubs - Argyle, City and to a lesser extent Rovers, that have had similar histories. We've all under-achieved when compared to the vast majority of other similar sized cities.

Don't forget, Argyle have all of Cornwall (250,000+) that fall within our potential catchment area, for when the (comparatively) successful times come. Hence finishing 17th in the CCC, but averaging just short of 17,000 for the first year back.

The biggest city in Europe never to have played top-flight football in their domestic league.

That statistical fact alone would point to the conclusion that Argyle dreaming of the Prem, is considerably less laughable than Exeter dreaming of the Championship.

Greenskin wrote:

Ah yes,the motorway argument.Makes you wonder why Exeter haven't scaled the heights since 1975 if a motorway plays such importance in a clubs fortunes...

Because it's only ONE FACTOR among many. I've never said it is the only factor. If you don't agree the lack of a motorway and poor transport links in general is an important factor in the fortunes of a city and its economy (which clearly impinges on the fortunes of a football club) then perhaps you should write to your MP, councillors and chamber of commerce and ask them to stop wasting everybody's time regularly lobbying for the red herring of motorway extension and improved transport links and complaining on the effect the lack of these things has on the City.

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Don't think Norwich or Ipswich are M way connected,doesn't seem to have held them back...

Neither of them are as remote as Plymouth - or at least they aren't perceived in that way, whis is what counts. Ipswich is very near to London for example. And to repeat, their historic record of success is what puts them in a different league than Argyle. When you are getting 15'000 at the lowest ebb in your club's history for decades and 20'000 at the top of the third tier is the moment you can start comparing yourselves to Norwich.

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And i don't agree that in future it will be impossible for clubs to emerge and push on into the premier league.

Well we'll have to disagree. It still sounds like wishful thinking to me.

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Millwall,on gates of 11000, are having a good go at the moment and i've no doubt that others will follow suit...

It's DECEMBER FFS - and this success constitutes only a few months in Millwall's recent history. Even if we assume they will stay there, we are still talking about the scenario TODAY and not that of the time when Argyle will have any reasonable chance of getting to the second tier.

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especially if the fair play rules have any teeth whatsoever [which is admitttedly asking a lot].

The way the fair play rules have been constructed, on the basis of turnover and whatnot, they are more likely to entrench the postions of the bigger clubs. Even its ostensible goals are to prevent the kind of financial doping that you seem to long for and which a club with your fanbase would need to remotely have a hope of getting anywhere near the Premier League.

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Even if they don't, it's well possible for clubs to implode and give others a chance to come through,as the examples of Portsmouth,Coventry ,Leeds,the two Sheffield clubs etc have demonstrated only too well in recent times...

You dont seem to appreciate what the bigger clubs in Europe and the medium-large clubs in England are trying to do. All the new financial deals, the increased parachute payments and so on, are designed to insulate the bigger clubs from financial uncertainty at the hands of the irritants of the smaller clubs and so avoid further scenarios like Porstmouth. Why do you think they pushed for an end to relegation? I agree that if things don't change, many clubs will fall into extreme difficulty, but I doubt any more of these will be clubs that have benefitted from the ever-increasing riches of the Premier League. It's more likely to help well-run small clubs achieve moderate success in the lower leagues than it is to propel the likes of Plymouth to unforeseen heights.

Quote :

Whether one of the emergees will be Argyle,only time will tell.The single most important lesson to be learnt from Argyle's current plight is that the club MUST be properly equipped financially if and when we ever get back to the CCC. The seeds of our decline were sown when the requisite investment was not made in the squad in 2004/5,resulting in a batch of substandard players being signed who proved to be nothing more than salary soaking liabilities and caused subsequent loss of interest and dwindling crowds,which successive 10th place finishes failed to reignite.Is it possible? We'll see.If an all encompassing effort was made to try to obtain adequate funding but proved fruitless,then i'd hold my hands up and acknowledge that Argyle will always be CCC/League 1 club at best.Certainly welcome some pro active effort in this regard though,which was not made until too late last time.

What do you mean by adequate funding? Do you have any idea what you will be trying to compete with, considering the pool of clubs that will have the nuclear threat of huge parachute payments and the fruits of massive TV deals in their arsenal? Who is going to provide the eye-watering sums that will probably be needed and how do you think you will get around the fair play rules of the Football League to allow these mythical funds to be deployed? Do you think you have the clout to scare the Football League into twisting the rules to suit you, as I'm sure will happen to UEFA/the PL if the likes of Manchester City start flexing their muscles?

This is all refusing to acknowledge the ever-changing situation. I'm sure you realise we live in a world where the rich get richer and those who get through the metaphorical door stay warm while the rest freeze. Why do you think football will be any different? You have the perfect example of how ruthless and calculating money men can be running your club, if you bother to research his background, so why do you persist in believing that the Davids will be permitted to continue to irritate the Goliaths for very much longer? I'm afraid if nothing changes then we will eventually reach a destination that began the day Alan Sugar cast the deciding vote for the foundation of the Premier League. We would all do well to recognise that fact.

Czarcasm wrote:

The biggest city in Europe never to have played top-flight football in their domestic league.

That statistical fact alone would point to the conclusion that Argyle dreaming of the Prem, is considerably less laughable than Exeter dreaming of the Championship.

Sorry, but I call damn lies and statistics and all that. There is no relevency there at all; were it that simple.

The statistical fact is that despite having a potential "250,000" to tap, Argyle consistently have failed to do so in the way that other clubs mentioned have.

If it were merely a game of population = success then the match itself may aswell not be played. The key matter on that particular argument is that the jump from League 1 to Championship requires significantly less of an investment jump than that of Championship to Premiership. I cant be bothered to do any mundane kind of mathsy thing, but the proportional jump in investment would, I reckon, easily be considerably more than simple the proportional differences between Argyles and Citys current attendences and notional catchment areas.

Granted, as has been stated, there is kind of a 'stickiness' to support that means should Argyle ever reach the top flight, they could explode their attendence and would stand a much higher chance of sustaining themselves above this discussed 'glass ceiling', but in terms of initially exceeding it, City have by far the better chance of exceeding theirs by virture of the fact that it'd simply take less to do so.

I think there are fair arguments for both sides of the coin, Rise. I'd just like to say it's good to have yourself and Jabba here on ATD.

We do like to talk footie (sort of) occasionally...