Statement from President on Chanting

Chemical Ali wrote:

Trinny you've upset webby-

Chris_Webb1: Once again people falsely labelling FV1886 as an 'Ultra' group. It is not, has never been and will never be. #whymakeitup? #pafc

As John Petrie has posted on Pasoti, FV is a non racist group, but the chants could be deemed as racially offensive (even if those chanting it didn't mean it to be or were aware of the nature).

Chris Webb's admission of a training programme for FV (in his statement) and Home Park suggests there is some acceptance that this was not acceptable (even if wasn't meant to be)

I assume that like many of us, Webb has finally linked racism to the many "Ultras" groups throughout Europe and is now distancing the Home Park group from those Ultras?

This is all very strange considering he marketed the idea of the Ultras in the first place?

Perhaps I'm wrong but I can't honestly believe that people go along to Home Park with the intention of being racist - that would imply some sort of organisation and intelligence. People would need to belong to some sort of group that gathered at the stadium.

Oh, hang on...

Seriously though, it only needs one or two idiots and then the pack mentality kicks in. That's one of the dangers of this sort of group and the labels attached to it.

It's something that the club needs to deal with, and by the club, I mean Brent, perhaps Peter Jones and the CEO. Not a guy who clearly doesn't understand what is racist and what isn't, and is too concerned with protecting his own creation rather than deal with the issues.

Gosh, how embarrassing.

Never had these kind of Presidential blunders before.

Bring back Okedura.

I think I posted on another thread when I was winding down ridiculously late last night about the stewarding and racism. Someone I spent some time with approached a steward and reported foul, racist abuse - "effing Muslim c***" or similar (not just Gyppo). The response of the stewards was great and so was the police's. Their interest was in dealing with it in a low-key way and in a way that didn't inflame any situation. I think the guy that was quietly taken out of the Lindy during the second half was the guy in question.

This is getting stupid, a mate of mine plays south western football and kept on being called "A white prick" by a black fella, he just laughed and got on with it. I hate racism, really do but where do we stop? Only a matter of time before the PC brigade moans about players being called "Fat" "Ginger" "Shit" "Baldy" etc etc.

Many moons ago, I was at Goodison when Graeme Sharp broke Kevin Summerfields leg.

I think "you fuckin dirty fuckin scotch c**t!!" would have been just one of an array of expletives that I, and many hundreds around me were aiming at Sharp.

How times change....

Peoples core values seem to be so much more socially intolerant these days.

Czarcasm wrote:

Many moons ago, I was at Goodison when Graeme Sharp broke Kevin Summerfields leg.

I think "you fuckin dirty fuckin scotch c**t!!" would have been just one of an array of expletives that I, and many hundreds around me where aiming at Sharp.

How times change....

Peoples core values seem to be so much more socially intolerant these days.

I think the law of Fair Comment would come into operation there.

Czarcasm wrote:

Many moons ago, I was at Goodison when Graeme Sharp broke Kevin Summerfields leg.

I think "you fuckin dirty fuckin scotch c**t!!" would have been just one of an array of expletives that I, and many hundreds around me where aiming at Sharp.

How times change....

Peoples core values seem to be so much more socially intolerant these days.

I was at that match!

It's societies views that change to reflect changes in value and understanding of hurt and pain, whether that's physical or mental. In turn it is hoped that this will provide a happier society for us all to live in.

I just long for the days when a few uppitty ni***** could be strung up with nobody twitching an eye (except for the obvious one). Or when those of the Jewish persuasion could be forced to live in ghettoes where they belong. In fact, what use are women at football matches? They should get back into the kitchens and the beds where they belong.

What do you mean? Times change and we have all become more sensitive to others' rights? Stupid idea!

Greener wrote:

Only a matter of time before the PC brigade moans about players being called "Fat" "Ginger" "Shit" "Baldy" etc etc.

This is an argument trotted out by all sorts of folk that is totally spurious in my opinion.. There are laws of the land .... full stop. And those laws actually define the difference of degree and fact in matters of racist abuse. Those laws do not include fatism, thinism, poorism, thickism, cleverism.

There are a lot of people out there that think 'PC' is a modern day liberal Eurpean affection ... it's not. Politically correct talking has gone on amongst tribal members and nation states all over the planet since the dawn of time... that is why we have for instance blasphemy laws ... they are PC laws in effect. But of course, those laws in this country only protect certain religions ... a strange anachronism given the neccesary secular nature of our society.
The law is often unfair. What we are discussing here is the law of the land as it stands... and thank heavens we have progressed as far as we have.
There will always be the emotional dinosaur element that wish to return us to the bad old days and worse.

Greener wrote:

This is getting stupid, a mate of mine plays south western football and kept on being called "A white prick" by a black fella, he just laughed and got on with it. I hate racism, really do but where do we stop? Only a matter of time before the PC brigade moans about players being called "Fat" "Ginger" "Shit" "Baldy" etc etc.

If your mate lived in a society where white people were victimised and discriminated against on a day to day basis. Where white people were a minority and routinely excluded from social structures simply for being white. If your friend was called "white prick" day in day out by his work colleagues insinuating that he was inferior to them and was labelled the same every time he set foot on a football pitch, I would imagine your mate might not take the comments in the light hearted manner in which they were intended.

Personally I think it is wrong to abuse anyone, but there is a huge difference between inferring that someone is inferior by insinuating that they are from an ethnic race that has been persecuted throughout Europe in recent history, and insulting someone for being overweight.

A decent statement. Chris I believe stands in the middle of Blocks 3/4 so will know what's happening there. Let's hope the problem really can be cleaned up, because whatever the good intentions of FV1886 it seems a few idiots are spoiling it for those who do want to create a bit of atmosphere for 90 minutes. I look forward to more specifics of what Chris plans to do with education etc.

The anti-Muslim racist incident which was reported to the police was well away from the Devonport.

I have managed to follow all of the various debates and disputes here and on Pasoti for the last few months without getting involved. But this statement on Forza Verde has forced me out of my silence.

Whilst the reaction in terms of educating and raising awareness is good, I think that much of the rest of the statement is spineless. As someone remarked above, there seems to be a complete unwillingness to acknowledge so much as a single flaw with the 'Ultra' group (and yes, I definitely remember reading that term on the relative threads on Pasoti).

Firstly, let's start with the way it was named; hardly an exemplary exercise in democracy was it, with the cancelling of one vote in order to accept the next? In terms of legitimising a name, that was a poor start. What I find most annoying though is the refusal to admit that the naming process was a shambles. It seems that with the 'new' Argyle, if you are not 100% on board, then you are seen as 'the enemy within'; this attitude is very unhealthy.

Secondly, the name itself, with its right-wing links. Now I don't read all the threads either here or on Pasoti, but I haven't read any defender of the FV1886 idea acknowledge these links. Just because the name has links to right-wing groups, that does not mean that people are accusing FV1886's founders of trying to create a fascist supporters' group. The very idea is ridiculous, especially considering Chris Webb's union activities and the progressive stance made very public by several of his closest allies on Pasoti with regard to racism and all forms of discrimination. There would be nothing wrong with acknowledging problems with the name and its associations. It's too late to change it now (I suppose), but a simple statement would suffice to move things on.

Thirdly, the 'alleged' racist chanting. Personally, I have read enough accounts of racist chants and unpleasant behaviour by Argyle fans over the last few weeks to be entirely convinced that they are true. These accounts have come from genuine fans who want, as far as anyone can judge on the internet, the best for the club. But wanting the best for the club does not mean that one has to portray the club as being flawless. This is the part of Chris Webb's statement that I found spineless. It has become pretty clear that there is an emerging problem with racism among Argyle's supporters. Therefore to continue using words like 'alleged' and 'reported' is disingenuous in the extreme. These incidents have happened, why try to keep pretending that they haven't and by association marginalise those who dare to talk about them? And it is a disgrace, a disgrace, that only after yesterday's chanting has there been a statement from the founder of FV1886 regarding ongoing and repeated problems associated with, not because of this new group. Perhaps a tiny minority of idiots has seen FV1886 as an opportunity to create a rallying point for discrimination, for the EDL, whatever. I haven't read anyone say or imply, even on this site where I know feelings are strong against both Webb and FV1886, that the new group was deliberately formed for racist purposes. But it is a real shame that FV1886 has thus far been treated as a sacred cow and any problems associated with it have been shamefully swept under the carpet. If there is a genuine fear/chance that FV1886 could be infiltrated, then the time to deal with that was after the very first allegation, not now after several incidents. This delay has given any infiltration the best possible chance of succeeding, and all because of the refusal of this group's founders to acknowledge and address criticism.

I should probably explain where I'm coming from with regard to Pasoti/ATD. I am from Plymouth and I the saga of administration from a distance, via The Herald, then Pasoti and ATD. At first, I heard of the criticism of Webb et al. (this was before reading anything on ATD) and thought 'Typical, there are always people who are going to criticise'. But I have gradually come to the conclusion that ATD is a much healthier place than Pasoti. The issue in question is a good example of why. Chris Webb didn't want to turn his statement into a rambling debate, so what has been done on Pasoti? No-one can comment on the thread containing his statement. Now call me old-fashioned, but I find it much healthier to have a good old rambling debate than no debate at all. Webb's statement now appears more like a diktat, and this kind of presentation leads to allegations of dictatorial attitudes etc.

Similarly, the treatment of the allegations of racism surrounding FV1886 has made it appear as if the latter 'belongs' to certain members of a 'new elite' whose ideas must appear perfect and never be criticised. Sure, there seems to have been a lot of fans who hated the idea of an Ultras group and when problems emerged, they were always bound to jump on them and say 'Told you so'. Firstly, they have every right to do so. Secondly, creating and defending projects like FV1886 will involve facing criticism. Thirdly, some of this criticism will have foundation, in which case the issues raised must be addressed as quickly as possible, not swept under the carpet. If these issues had been addressed when they were first reported, maybe the awareness-raising and education would have already happened, thus avoiding yesterdays problems.

Anyway, sorry for having rattled on for so long in my first post, but this denial of problems, this refusal of debate, this attempt to portray a 'perfect' club is very unhealthy and it is about time that Pasoti snapped out of it and that the likes of Chris Webb actually took responsibility for what they have taken on.

As first posts go, that one's a belter.

Welcome aboard, charleymouse,

Welcome, Charleymouse.

A fantastic first post

Welcome Charleymouse, I echo exactly what others have said, cracking post that I agree with in total.

Excellent first post by Charleymouse. You've hit the nail on the head in that the superfans cannot tolerate any criticism. When the racist incidents started to occur around block 3/ 4 (no proof that it came fromFV), Chris Webb was advised (by members of this site) that he should make a statement distancing the FV group from racism and making an anti racism statement. He perceived that ATD were intimating he was a racist (and attacking him) and soon left the site- wonder if he'd like to go back in time now.

It's going to take more than a statement from Chris Webb to change the "Big Daves" on Pasoti's view on racism.

Even now when it's been pointed out to them that it IS racist chanting, they are still defending it with comments like " Chris Hargreaves used to get where's your caravan shouted at him, and he called his book that" Yes and in Love Thy Neighbour in the 70's it was funny when the black guy was called nig nog!

The guy who reported the chanting yesterday should have been praised for standing up and trying to kick it out, isn't that what football wants? But instead he's abused and has the piss taken out of him on Pasoti, and a mod on there even has the cheek to have a go at him instead of praising him! Then we have Ryan Ferguson carrying on abusing G n T who reported it, in the Forza Verde section, and that's left alone and not deleted, so someone posting in the FV section thinks it's a laugh and abuses the person standing up and being counted. I wonder how many " What did you do" comments will be made about racist chanting.

And then Ryan Ferguson on Pasoti says that I have twisted his words regarding comments he made last night. No Ryan you were defending chanting g*po because away fans at Leicester always chant "Town full of pakis" or in other words it's ok to be called a racist club as long as we're not the worst! Plymouth Argyle, we're racist, but only a little bit.

It's 2012 and the England captain is going to court for calling Anton Ferdinand a black bastard. Thats racist. If he called him a bastard it isn't. Luis Suarez claimed ignorance when he called Patrice Evra "little black man" saying it was ok in Uruguay, he lost his case.

Now Chris is trying to distance himself from calling FV Ultras, yet he started a thread called the birth of the Argyle Ultras. Now the Ultras we see and hear about in Europe are a right wing racist bunch of yobs. Not saying this was Chris Webb's intention at all, but the reports of racist chanting have grown since the formation of Forza Verde, or the Argyle Ultras, so wouldn't it be just so much easier for Chris Webb as club president to make a statement, in addition to his Pasoti post this morning, saying that the name Ultras being linked to the FV was a mistake and reiterating that any racist activity is not acceptable. I raised the point last night, what would Chris do in his day job if a postman was being called a Pikey or g*po or whatever? He would be right behind the guy making the complaint whether the other postmen knew it was racist or not. And yet on the Forza Verde section on Pasoti, there is no condemnation of the people having a go at G n T, and this is Chris Webb's baby.

Now we have certain people saying that it's just troublemaking by ATD. Well the guy who reported it yesterday posted it on Pasoti, not here. The reports of racist chanting over the last half dozen games or so came from Pasoti. Chris Webb called the FV group the Argyle Ultras. Nothing to do with troublemaking by ATD whatsoever. Chris has chosen not to post on ATD anymore, but he's still a regular poster on Pasoti and must see that the mods on there are not backing G n T up, and in fact joining in with rubbishing him. Yet ATD is full of scum, freaks, weirdo's and cowards? The racist issue has been openly debated and condemned on ATD for weeks and weeks now, without any word whatsoever from Chris, who still finds it ok to post on Pasoti where posts about racism have been deleted, and someone who takes a stand against it gets abused and villified.

Now it might be a remote chance of anyone coming down hard on Argyle for constant racist chanting, but what who's to say that because of all the previous reports that someone from the authorities has sat in the Devonport End and heard this yesterday? And then saw the person who reported it abused by the biggest Argyle fans site? And saw that the group with banners and flags was formed by the Club President, and called the Argyle Ultras? Longshot? Yes definitely, but IF any punishment has handed down to Argyle over this, who would be squealing the loudest about it being unfair?

It's not troublemaking by anyone. I was tuned in yesterday wanting Argyle to win as much as the next fan, and was over the moon when we got a point out of it, but I don't want there to be any chance of being docked points and being relegated for off field activities again, and believe it or not, word gets around and I don't want Argyle to be labelled a racist club.

It really is that black and white, ignorance isn't a defence and anyone who doesn't agree with the law should take it up with the Frogs or Krauts or Gooks or whoever made it law.

Good post Charleymouse. It isn't the small number of people who shout the abuse who are solely wrong - it's the people around who do nothing about it (at best).

I'm all for rambling. It's my strongest point!

Perhaps Il Presidente should have thought about the 'leadership' role of this group, that to be fair HE alone cannot control ?

knecht wrote:

I'm all for rambling. It's my strongest point!

Can I call you Rose ?

penzancepirate wrote:

knecht wrote:

I'm all for rambling. It's my strongest point!

Can I call you Rose ?

My daughter would object. Maybe if I called her "Ian" that would make it OK.

GregCampbellFanClub wrote:

Perhaps Il Presidente should have thought about the 'leadership' role of this group, that to be fair HE alone cannot control ?

They are forming a committee soon. I'm sure that will help when four 16 year olds are elected.

Anyone heard anymore about ZeeZan? She asked for her Pasoti account to be deleted last night, but the request wasn't answered and now it's gone.

GregCampbellFanClub wrote:

Perhaps Il Presidente should have thought about the 'leadership' role of this group, that to be fair HE alone cannot control ?

You bring up something there Greg that actually worries me.
Chris Webb has already shown his predisposition for hopping off the bus once the 'excitement' has gone away. As his 'm8' has stated to us, he's young and very full of himself. This ultra thing is a problem that needs sorting properly, not some leader that has an eye for the next thing on the horizon, leaving problems behind.

He has already stated it is his intention to 'set it up', FV that is, and then pass it on. Well, I tell you what Mr Webb, you've got no chance of jumping ship from this latest baby until you can show you've not only got this racist problem under control, but you've used FV to kick any racists that have misconstrued it's objectives, into touch.

Quote :

Gary Mcguire (GTs), Mark Russell (GTs). Ian Newell (PASOTI) and Chris Webb (Club President) are the individuals launching Forza Verde 1886.

Whilst accepting that problems might be round the fringes of Forza and assuming that Chris is in amongst it in the Devonport is there enough supervision from the others. It appears IjN was in the grandstand and I'm guessing the Taverners were otherwise occupied.

The promise was to pass on ownership to the Forzas themselves. Hopefully this will happen with them fully understanding the issues and how to deal with and/or report issues. First in line for the education programme as well I would think.