Brexit - Leave or Remain poll

So what is your answer to the skills shortage then Franny? Free uni places for Eastern Europeans? And I thought it was us outers that didn't have the answers?

It should said however that a number of politicians including Boris Johnson have distanced themselves them from Farage and UKIP

Johnson, who leads the official Vote Leave campaign, said the poster was “not our campaign” and “not my politics”.

Amsterdamage wrote:

So what is your answer to the skills shortage then Franny? Free uni places for Eastern Europeans? And I thought it was us outers that didn't have the answers?

As someone who is voting in but not passionately pro-EU, I would say making University places more attainable to people from poorer backgrounds and not saddling them with vast quantity of debt.

I don’t mean this as an insult but I am sure some of you will take it this way. Most people don’t understand the simplest of immigration concepts, let alone the complexities. If it was as simple as just rounding people up and putting them on a plane then that’s what immigration authorities worldwide would do. Even if things are recorded in triplicate, each individual country has a different returns policy and it often takes 6 months for a travel document to be issued – sometimes its longer and some countries just point blank refuse to take their nationals back.

Even if someone is detained with a valid passport, they have to have a 72 hour wait before they can be put on a plane. This is so they can submit a Judicial Review to challenge the decision to remove them. This 72 hour period was imposed by a British courts. The JR will be submitted an hour before they are due to fly out and the removal has to be cancelled even if the JR is totally spurious (and most are).

If they don’t fancy the JR route (or have already played that card), they can obtain an injunction. If that fails then they often claim asylum. A British court recently ruled that the fast track asylum process was unlawful (despite it operating for 10 years previously to deal with these bogus claims to stop removal).

Obviously we are assuming that the person has been detained the entire time – and we could easily be talking 6 months plus. Immigration detention centres are routinely criticised in the press. Families are not detained any more (quite rightly). Individuals are released on “bail” (TA) but these conditions are rarely complied with.

What is being proposed by the Leave campaign is that a points based visa system will be brought in for European countries. So Mr Nice Polish Man and his family will legally obtain a visa to work. After working for 5 years without incident (and paying tax), his visa may finish or be curtailed (most work visas are limited to individual employers). Mr Nice Polish Man now faces an uncertain future as he will have to move his family back to Poland. He will have to find work and find a home/school etc. But his mate in the UK offers him work in a factory down the road. He takes it and works illegally. Then he gets caught. Because we have imposed a visa regime on the Poles its fair to assume that the documentation process will be lengthy. Do we lock up Mr Nice Polish Man whilst we wait for the Poles to accept him back? What happens to his wife and kids? Shall we lock them up as well? Will he submit a Judicial Review? What effect will it have on his kids if they see their Dad being dragged away be enforcement officers at 6am (and then being kicked out of school because they have to go back to Poland)?

Unscrupulous employers and criminal gangs will quickly find a way around whatever points based system or immigration control that is brought in. The “illegal immigrant” underclass will rise and all of the associated problems with that will increase.

I don’t claim to have a solution, but if we want to safeguard British jobs for British workers surely it would be a better idea to invest in education and skills so that employers didn’t have to look abroad for workers.

No insult taken Frank and thanks for the input, I will cogitate and digest. Off the top of my head my initial response would be that change is never easy but the present system is hitting the poorest in this country very hard and has to be changed. A good example is a friend of mine who was a tree surgeon in the Tavvy area, through no fault of his own he has contracted a nasty circulatory disease and his body is shedding digits and limbs at an alarming rate. However he still needs and wants to work. He was working as Taxi driver but I recently saw him delivering parcels, asking why the change (as I knew he enjoyed the taxi driving) he replied that he can't afford to work for £4.50 to £5.00 an hour as that's what the Romanians in Tavvy are working for on a self employed basis.
The Romanians are good lads, hard working and polite but they are all here to work and save up to build a house when they return home. Good on them you have to respect them for it but how much tax are they paying from earning £200/week? I would suggest nothing and not only that but you can't afford to live in this area on those wages unless you are sharing rooms in cheap digs, not easy for a man with a wife and family. Now call me old fashioned but I think we should be looking after my mate and his family before we put the needs of people from other countries before him. All the remainers I know are on comfortable wages with a pension looming or already on a pension. Everybody should try and see this from the view of the poorest of workers who like my mate have no choice just shitty luck having put them there.

Whether you're Remain or Leave, this is brilliant and he reflects my thoughts exactly............including the tits! Brilliant...............his best yet. " As a leftie we have abandoned our principles. Vote leave and you are supporting Boris Johnson and Michael Gove !!! Vote stay and you're supporting David Cameron !Cameron or Johnson, feck me what a choice ! Caught between the devil and the deep blue twats !!!"
ha ha ha ha !

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But Mr nice Polish man and his family have the right to come here regardless of whether we want/need them, if we leave the EU they won't automatically have that right.

Tringreen wrote:

Whether you're Remain or Leave, this is brilliant and he reflects my thoughts exactly............including the tits! Brilliant...............his best yet. " As a leftie we have abandoned our principles. Vote leave and you are supporting Boris Johnson and Michael Gove !!! Vote stay and you're supporting David Cameron !Cameron or Johnson, feck me what a choice ! Caught between the devil and the deep blue twats !!!"
ha ha ha ha !

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When you've done that have a look at this,
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Les Miserable wrote:

But Mr nice Polish man and his family have the right to come here regardless of whether we want/need them, if we leave the EU they won't automatically have that right.

The scenario I have explained is one where they have come here after qualifying for a points based visa.

The only way Mr Nice Polish Man could be removed currently would be if he wasn't exercising his Treaty Rights or if he had received a deportation order following a criminal conviction and prison sentence.

Frank Bullitt wrote:

Les Miserable wrote:

But Mr nice Polish man and his family have the right to come here regardless of whether we want/need them, if we leave the EU they won't automatically have that right.

The scenario I have explained is one where they have come here after qualifying for a points based visa.

The only way Mr Nice Polish Man could be removed currently would be if he wasn't exercising his Treaty Rights or if he had received a deportation order following a criminal conviction and prison sentence.

Understood, shorely that's more manageable than the current open door scenario though.

Amsterdamage wrote:

When you've done that have a look at this,
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Eyewatering stuff, what an utter sham, watched the first half hour and will watch the rest later if I can stomach it.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] WARNING THIS MOVIE DOES CONTAIN SOME FARAGING IMAGES!

1hour and 10 minutes and it doesn't deal with the immigration issue at all. It is more akin to my take on the whole issue of the EU, democracy and freedom of choice. The Switzerland piece is very thought provoking.

Les Miserable wrote:

Frank Bullitt wrote:

Les Miserable wrote:

But Mr nice Polish man and his family have the right to come here regardless of whether we want/need them, if we leave the EU they won't automatically have that right.

The scenario I have explained is one where they have come here after qualifying for a points based visa.

The only way Mr Nice Polish Man could be removed currently would be if he wasn't exercising his Treaty Rights or if he had received a deportation order following a criminal conviction and prison sentence.

Understood, shorely that's more manageable than the current open door scenario though.

No mate, that was the whole point of my snooze inducing essay above. If you think the current situation is bad, I think it will be far worse if we bring in a PBS for EU workers. Any "control" we have will soon be lost in the removal log jam that will inevitably occur.

Frank Bullitt wrote:

I don’t claim to have a solution, but if we want to safeguard British jobs for British workers surely it would be a better idea to invest in education and skills so that employers didn’t have to look abroad for workers.

A University education is out of reach of most kids unless their parents are rich, which is why Universities are so desperate to get wealthy foreigners over here. There has to be some immigration.

Frank Bullitt wrote:

Les Miserable wrote:

Frank Bullitt wrote:

Les Miserable wrote:

But Mr nice Polish man and his family have the right to come here regardless of whether we want/need them, if we leave the EU they won't automatically have that right.

The scenario I have explained is one where they have come here after qualifying for a points based visa.

The only way Mr Nice Polish Man could be removed currently would be if he wasn't exercising his Treaty Rights or if he had received a deportation order following a criminal conviction and prison sentence.

Understood, shorely that's more manageable than the current open door scenario though.

No mate, that was the whole point of my snooze inducing essay above. If you think the current situation is bad, I think it will be far worse if we bring in a PBS for EU workers. Any "control" we have will soon be lost in the removal log jam that will inevitably occur.

All of which will be handled by one of those monolithic Public Sector contract grabbers like Serco, who are notoriously shit at handling public contracts and will result in utter bedlam.

Frank Bullitt wrote:

Les Miserable wrote:

Frank Bullitt wrote:

Les Miserable wrote:

But Mr nice Polish man and his family have the right to come here regardless of whether we want/need them, if we leave the EU they won't automatically have that right.

The scenario I have explained is one where they have come here after qualifying for a points based visa.

The only way Mr Nice Polish Man could be removed currently would be if he wasn't exercising his Treaty Rights or if he had received a deportation order following a criminal conviction and prison sentence.

Understood, shorely that's more manageable than the current open door scenario though.

No mate, that was the whole point of my snooze inducing essay above. If you think the current situation is bad, I think it will be far worse if we bring in a PBS for EU workers. Any "control" we have will soon be lost in the removal log jam that will inevitably occur.

Wouldn't they be stopped at the point of entry unless they had the correct 'papers'?...........apologies for the Nazi connotation Sir Frank.

Amsterdamage wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] WARNING THIS MOVIE DOES CONTAIN SOME FARAGING IMAGES!

1hour and 10 minutes and it doesn't deal with the immigration issue at all. It is more akin to my take on the whole issue of the EU, democracy and freedom of choice. The Switzerland piece is very thought provoking.

Agreed. Immigration is just a small part of this referendum. The greed, unaccountability, cost, corruption, warped rules and regulations and quite frankly creepy ideals of the unelected ruling elite should make all but those directly benefiting from the EU gravy train ask themselves some serious questions before casting their vote.

Yes Les they would be stopped. They could still claim asylum of course. Under the current system it's the airlines responsibility to make sure their passengers have the correct papers for their destination country. If they don't and the airline allows them to travel they are fined £2000 and they have to take them back on the first available flight.

But when someone arrives with the correct papers it is impossible to know if they will break the terms of their visa.

And if anyone is still awake, we are not talking about introducing a PBS for European visitors to the UK. If Mr Not So Nice Polish Man turns up at Heathrow claiming to be here for a weeks holiday he will be stamped in and free to enjoy his holiday. The holiday will be working in a meat packing factory in the midlands earning less then the minimum wage and being paid cash by an unscrupulous employer.

A thankless task by the sounds of it Frank, what's more difficult, working in immigration or modding this place

My views on immigration have totally changed in the ten years I have been doing the job. When you deal with the actual people day in day out it gives you a totally different perspective. It also gives you a different perspective on why people want to come to the UK (and it does make you a bit proud). The "system" is frustrating but if it was too easy it would attract the wrong sort of person doing the job.

Modding ATD is a doddle in comparison

Immigration is only apart of it and it's the remainers that are obsessed with it. Have you seen the movie Frank? You can watch it in parts, some parts or all of it, the Swiss thing is really eye opening. From the start I have been wary about remain because the government is telling us it's the only option, my 50 odd years on this planet tell me that the gov. has never been on my side or particularly worried whether I'm living in clover or shite, they always back big business and big business wants to exploit me and mine, hence my sceptical outlook. This referendum is about signing away our democracy, signing it away to a costly and unelected parliament that smacks of federalist, imperial superstate building world power. I'm glad the empire has gone I don't want to build another one via Europe.
I'm not saying that this is going to be easy but the country needs to have a bit of bollocks and take this on, when Europe goes tits up (which it's already started to IMO) we will be better off, much better off than being involved in it.
I've listened to you and you make some fair points its really refreshing to hear an opinion from someone is this debate with no bias and obviously has more insight than we can possibly have via the campaign or the media. I will honestly look at your job a bit differently and now do me a favour and at least watch the movie.

I've watched the whole movie now. My heart goes out to the poor citizens of Switzerland who are clearly on the bones of their arse outside of the EU

[quote="mouldyoldgoat"]

Moist_Von_Lipwig wrote:

Les Miserable wrote:

Unbelievable that somebody who doesn't even live here appears so desperate for us to remain, or is it an ideological thing, not wanting the european experiment to fail.

There is a lot wrong with the EU. It can be changed if we work together with other countries (don't forget a lot of them aren't happy too!).

But it seems only the UK is willing to stick it head above the parapet and try to change things with no help from any other country.


I don't see how isolating ourselves will help us. This is the 21st century, not a time for xenophobes and racists!

Why are those who want to leave the EU xenophobes and racists? I for one resent being called a racist because I want the best , in my view, for my children and for Britain.
Should I be labelling you and those people who want to remain, Traitors or Terrorist for wanting to do grave harm to Britain and its people?


Again, what grave harm?? IMO Farage and Johnson would do more harm!


I also don't see any answers from the Brexiters on the following points should we vote leave:

I don't see many answers coming from remainers either but will come to that later.

1/ How will you prevent the pound from falling? If it does fall, how long will it take to recover? How will you accomplish this?

I've no idea on none of these questions because I don't work in the city, part of the financial sector or part of the government.

2/ Will the UK break up (Scotland want to stay in the EU)? If so, will border controls be put in place?

Who knows, it will be up to the Scots to decide and do they really want to stay or is it part of the shit the scots bitch in charge of them wants?
If needed yes.


Why the need for insults? It seems a pretty prevalent thing to do for the Brexiteers on this thread!

3/ Will border controls be put in place between NI and the ROI? If so, will this bring back the troubles?

There have always been border controls between north and south but they never stopped terrorists, smugglers or normal people crossing over when they wanted if they knew where to go. As for the troubles, have they completely gone away?


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] We will just have to see what happens.

4/ If we want to trade with the EU, then we must agree to their rules (free movement of people?). What difference will that make as to what we have now?

Why? Its called negotiation for the mutual benefit for both.


We will have a very weak hand in any negotiation. It would be a take it or leave it deal.

5/ Should it all goes pear shaped after exiting, would you ask to rejoin the EU (probably being forced to adopt the euro at the same time)?

I don't think it will. I believe it will be the EU which will fail.


6/ How confident are you that all will be fine and the UK (or England) will prosper? What do you base this confidence on?

Very confident.
We were told that joining the ERM was the only way forward. We did and it was a disaster for everyone in this country. We left it and after a period of time things got better.
We were told that joining the Euro was THE only option for us to survive. We didn't and we have seen our economy out perform the Eurozone for years now.
In both cases it was the banks, big business and politicians who, again in my opinion, only had their own vested interests for us to do so.
These are the same people who took this country and many others to the brink of bankruptcy and now want us to do as they say!


If the UK economy is so good, why leave?


7/ What will happen to any foriegners (EU or other) currently living and working in the UK (all the migrants)? Will they be allowed to stay or will they be kickd out?

Those who are contributing to the economy and paying their way can stay as far as I am concerned. Those who are not, like the east europeans living in cars or tents in parks, defecating in the street and contributing nothing to this country, can leave.


There are enough UK citizens doing the same!!

8/ Who will be allowed in or will immigration stop completely?

Those who will contribute to the wellbeing of Britain and no, immigration will not stop completely. You need some immigration for the country to evolve. The leave campaign have never said they want to stop immigration completely.


9/ Will the EU itself break up? Would this increase the propect of another european conflict?

I think it will break up. I think Germany, France, Holland, Belgium, Denmark and Luxembourg will go it alone, while the others will be left to pick up the pieces. Maybe Poland, Sweden and Finland would be part of the club of rich countries.
As for another European conflict maybe you should ask the Germans?


Grow up please. the German armed forces couldn't punch their way out of a wet paper bag at the moment!!!

10/ Will Mr Putin and Mr Trump be happy?

Who gives a feck about them, I don't. Putin would be happy because it would stop the Ukraine from becoming a member. As for Trumpy, well he is just a joke and as far as I am concerned if he gets in then he would be a car crash waiting to happen.

Thanks Mouldy.

I'm addressing your questions now (I need some time for research etc...and a coffee or two, plus the football is on soon).

mouldyoldgoat wrote:

Now maybe you could answer these if we remain.

1/ How will you prevent the Euro from falling when either Greece or Italy default? If it does fall, how long will it take to recover? How will you accomplish this?

Like you, I'm no financial guru. The pound is getting stronger against the euro at the moment. If it continues that way or the euro falls, then imports would be cheaper (though I doubt prices in the UK would reflect that!). It will be up to Germany, France and the CEB to sort it out. The euro won't completely collapse though.

How much will it cost Britain to bail them, ECB and the euro out?

Not a lot by the look of it... [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

2/ Will no border controls between NI and the ROI stop the troubles from getting worse?

Well, we've had more "peace" over the last few years. I don't know what people would think if borders are fully reinstated.

3/ How will the EU combat the rise in unemployed, both young and old in the Eurozone?

Where are you getting your figures from? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

4/ How will the EU stop the migrant crisis? They have started throwing money at Turkey in an effort to curb the crisis if this doesn't work what do they do then?

Good question. Stop the war and improve the conditions in other countries (get rid of corruption etc). As for the UK, nothing will change (in or ou) unless the government decide to. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Personally, I would implement border controls at each EU entry point. Families with kids (from Syria) could be let in. Single men (those who have left their wife and kids behind, economic migrats etc) could be sent back to where they came from.

The migrant crisis is a "continental europe" problem and not one that will affect the UK unless the (elected) UK goverment decides to let it.

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5/ How much will it cost Britain for Turkey and the other 4 counties to join the EU?

Nothing by the look of it. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Any new members will have to be agreed by each elected goverment in each EU member state.

6/ How many migrants can Britain expect to come here when they do join?

None. See above.It will be up to the UK government to negotiate any migration conditions. If it's not acceptable, then use the veto. The UK are not the only country concerned about this.

7/ What will EU do when fighting between EU countries breaks out because one is unhappy their economy has collapsed due to the one rate fits all shows vast differences in the wealth of them and their neighbour?

Use diplomatic means and send in a peace keeping force if necessary (as in Kosovo).

8/ Why is it the remain camp wring their hands and go on about how little Britain can't possible survive without being in the EU. But if we were to vote to leave then we could,

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b) [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

c) [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The lying fuckers need to make up their minds. Are we poor little helpless Britain or are we the biggest bastards threat to the world as we know it?

Some statements and the language used are a bit OTT from both sides!
I sometimes wish that those involved in the debates and making such statements could be wired up to lie detectors!!!!