Grateful that we are not a League One club

Tis a difficult one. I completely get the argument that he's served his time so should be able to return to work. The big issue for any prospective employer though is the perception it will give of their club should they give him a contract. Clubs aren't not giving him a contract because they are bastions of moral society. They aren't giving him a contract 'cos they're shit scared of the image it portrays of them being happy to sign a rapist.

I have to say if a firm I owned had an application for a job from a well known convicted rapist, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want the baggage and publicity that'd come with offering him a job.

Elias wrote:

No one booed luke when he saved us on saturday, no one would not celebrae a ched evans argyle goal. Sighn him. Hes served his time after being found guilty in court of law

Hey Elias, don't forget to tune in to the REAL Wimbledon v Liverpool tonight

AstiSpumante wrote:

None of this should make any difference, guilty/not guilty, remorseful/not remorseful, this man has served the sentence meted out by a court of law and should not be prevented from continuing his life and career. It's nothing less than mob rule from the self ..... etc.

In a nutshell that is it. This country does not have mob rule but a system that will punish guilty people and, once punished, allow them to return to society. Of course many people cannot return to previous employment due to CRB checks. As someone posted earlier if the question to, for example, Hartlepool fans, was relegation out of the league or employ Evans any vote may be very close.
He would have done better to wait until after the appeal but I think that by the end of the season a club struggling against relegation will offer a short term deal.

Quite a good point (which kind of sums up one side of the argument) I thought was made on the 6 o'clock news was "The conviction he was given was imprisonment, not unemployment"

Iggy wrote:

How would everybody feel if we signed him, he scored 15 goals and we went up as champions?

Not a problem for me. He's served the sentence handed down to him. What more can he do ?

I'd much rather he was able to play & contribute to society by means of paying tax than be prevented from doing so by a baying mob & be forced to be a drain on society.

I do have a little bit of a problem with this. First of all he hasn't technically 'served his time' as he's only out on probation. He could go to prison again instantly if he commits another offence. He's not a 'free man' just yet.

Secondly, and the main issue, is that he's so blissfully unaware of his actions. This woman was so drunk she couldn't remember her actions of the night before to how she got into this hotel bed. Ched was aware and can remember what happens. Now, if he took advantage of a woman that drunk.. Then it is rape.

He doesn't seem willing to accept this even though he admits he got stuck in and he admits going there to have sex with this woman. Whether he or anyone else likes it, a JURY found him guilty. Now there are extremely occasional miscarriages of justice but it's very unlikely, and simply because he says so is not a good enough reason. We have to assume this is correct, and frankly 'because he says so' is not a good enough reason.

He even accepts what he did, he just doesn't think it's rape.

Then we move onto rehabilitation. Well, this is something which begins with the integration back into society, but how can this happen and how can he and the world move on when he doesn't accept his crime (which by law is rape) and has shown no hint of apology to his victim who's life is ruined and has just changed her name for the fifth time after Ched's defenders sought her out to abuse her. How about condemning that Ched? Not a hope in hell.

How long before his and others actions push this innocent girl to the brink of suicide? Not long I fear and sadly I think that's what it'll take before many wake up and realise what the man has actually done.

AstiSpumante wrote:

Elias wrote:

No one booed luke when he saved us on saturday, no one would not celebrae a ched evans argyle goal. Sighn him. Hes served his time after being found guilty in court of law

Hey Elias, don't forget to tune in to the REAL Wimbledon v Liverpool tonight

Damn cheek. Phoney b##tards ! Formed in 2003 but won the cup in 88. Ffs !!!!

Usual bunch of Hippos bloviating away, the boy done his time and the conviction was a joke, arse wipe he is, rapist? No chance.

If he hadn't been a footballer he would not have been convicted yet now because of the PC, holier than thou wanker brigade he can't get a job, I would take him in the blink of an eye and feck off any sponsors or so called fans who didn't like it.

Interesting point that TT made about CRB checks, do footballers have to do them to be around mascots, ballboys, youth players ect? My son had to be CRB'd when he was 16 to work in a local school during the holidays, my missus works in a school also she was saying that their dishwasher repair man has to complete over fifty CRB checks to do his job, one for each school he works in!
Personally I think it's the FA that should grow a pair and make a ruling about this sort of case.

Lord Tisdale wrote:

Usual bunch of Hippos bloviating away, the boy done his time and the conviction was a joke, arse wipe he is, rapist? No chance.

If he hadn't been a footballer he would not have been convicted yet now because of the PC, holier than thou wanker brigade he can't get a job, I would take him in the blink of an eye and feck off any sponsors or so called fans who didn't like it.

Did you sit through all the evidence in court? Or have you just decided what is most convenient for the particular bees that are in your bonnet today?

Josh makes a good point - he's still serving a sentence for rape. Surely no club can touch him until either a) he's made a grovelling apology to his victim, or b) his conviction is overturned. McCormick was remorseful, and by all accounts spends most of his free time trying to make amends by volunteering to take part in drink-drive education work. Has Ched Evans done anything of the sort apart from try to smear the girl he raped?

There have been lots of good points made in favour of Evans' return so far on this thread, but I wouldn't feel comfortable employing him if it was down to me unless there's a serious show of remorse. Justice hasn't run its course just yet.

Iggy wrote:

Interesting point that TT made about CRB checks, do footballers have to do them to be around mascots, ballboys, youth players ect? My son had to be CRB'd when he was 16 to work in a local school during the holidays, my missus works in a school also she was saying that their dishwasher repair man has to complete over fifty CRB checks to do his job, one for each school he works in!
Personally I think it's the FA that should grow a pair and make a ruling about this sort of case.

That's interesting, I think his life should be a bit easier now. I work in various different schools, primary and secondary, and the new system (CRBs have now been replaced with DBS certificates) allows me to use just the one certificate for each school, as long as the job I'm doing in each is more or less the same. It isn't a perfect system by any means: it's out of date as soon as it's issued, and as a freelancer I have to pay the £80-odd every year for an Enhanced DBS certificate. The old days of having enough CRBs to wallpaper my house with are over, thankfully.

Cornish Chris wrote:

Lord Tisdale wrote:

Usual bunch of Hippos bloviating away, the boy done his time and the conviction was a joke, arse wipe he is, rapist? No chance.

If he hadn't been a footballer he would not have been convicted yet now because of the PC, holier than thou wanker brigade he can't get a job, I would take him in the blink of an eye and feck off any sponsors or so called fans who didn't like it.

Did you sit through all the evidence in court? Or have you just decided what is most convenient for the particular bees that are in your bonnet today?

Josh makes a good point - he's still serving a sentence for rape. Surely no club can touch him until either a) he's made a grovelling apology to his victim, or b) his conviction is overturned. McCormick was remorseful, and by all accounts spends most of his free time trying to make amends by volunteering to take part in drink-drive education work. Has Ched Evans done anything of the sort apart from try to smear the girl he raped?

There have been lots of good points made in favour of Evans' return so far on this thread, but I wouldn't feel comfortable employing him if it was down to me unless there's a serious show of remorse. Justice hasn't run its course just yet.

You are aware Luke is on licence still dont you?

Angry wrote:

Cornish Chris wrote:

Lord Tisdale wrote:

Usual bunch of Hippos bloviating away, the boy done his time and the conviction was a joke, arse wipe he is, rapist? No chance.

If he hadn't been a footballer he would not have been convicted yet now because of the PC, holier than thou wanker brigade he can't get a job, I would take him in the blink of an eye and feck off any sponsors or so called fans who didn't like it.

Did you sit through all the evidence in court? Or have you just decided what is most convenient for the particular bees that are in your bonnet today?

Josh makes a good point - he's still serving a sentence for rape. Surely no club can touch him until either a) he's made a grovelling apology to his victim, or b) his conviction is overturned. McCormick was remorseful, and by all accounts spends most of his free time trying to make amends by volunteering to take part in drink-drive education work. Has Ched Evans done anything of the sort apart from try to smear the girl he raped?

There have been lots of good points made in favour of Evans' return so far on this thread, but I wouldn't feel comfortable employing him if it was down to me unless there's a serious show of remorse. Justice hasn't run its course just yet.

You are aware Luke is on licence still dont you?

But he's never tried to smear his victims, or deny his guilt, or failed to be remorseful. He'll never repair the wreckage that he caused, but he's trying to do what he can. That's the difference.

Cornish Chris wrote:

Angry wrote:

Cornish Chris wrote:

Lord Tisdale wrote:

Usual bunch of Hippos bloviating away, the boy done his time and the conviction was a joke, arse wipe he is, rapist? No chance.

If he hadn't been a footballer he would not have been convicted yet now because of the PC, holier than thou wanker brigade he can't get a job, I would take him in the blink of an eye and feck off any sponsors or so called fans who didn't like it.

Did you sit through all the evidence in court? Or have you just decided what is most convenient for the particular bees that are in your bonnet today?

Josh makes a good point - he's still serving a sentence for rape. Surely no club can touch him until either a) he's made a grovelling apology to his victim, or b) his conviction is overturned. McCormick was remorseful, and by all accounts spends most of his free time trying to make amends by volunteering to take part in drink-drive education work. Has Ched Evans done anything of the sort apart from try to smear the girl he raped?

There have been lots of good points made in favour of Evans' return so far on this thread, but I wouldn't feel comfortable employing him if it was down to me unless there's a serious show of remorse. Justice hasn't run its course just yet.

You are aware Luke is on licence still dont you?

But he's never tried to smear his victims, or deny his guilt, or failed to be remorseful. He'll never repair the wreckage that he caused, but he's trying to do what he can. That's the difference.

Yes and if my uncle had tits he would be my aunty as they say. No Argyle fan can ever be the voice of reason over Ched while trying to gloss over what Luke did as his crime was far worse.

Angry wrote:

Cornish Chris wrote:

Angry wrote:

Cornish Chris wrote:

Lord Tisdale wrote:

Usual bunch of Hippos bloviating away, the boy done his time and the conviction was a joke, arse wipe he is, rapist? No chance.

If he hadn't been a footballer he would not have been convicted yet now because of the PC, holier than thou wanker brigade he can't get a job, I would take him in the blink of an eye and feck off any sponsors or so called fans who didn't like it.

Did you sit through all the evidence in court? Or have you just decided what is most convenient for the particular bees that are in your bonnet today?

Josh makes a good point - he's still serving a sentence for rape. Surely no club can touch him until either a) he's made a grovelling apology to his victim, or b) his conviction is overturned. McCormick was remorseful, and by all accounts spends most of his free time trying to make amends by volunteering to take part in drink-drive education work. Has Ched Evans done anything of the sort apart from try to smear the girl he raped?

There have been lots of good points made in favour of Evans' return so far on this thread, but I wouldn't feel comfortable employing him if it was down to me unless there's a serious show of remorse. Justice hasn't run its course just yet.

You are aware Luke is on licence still dont you?

But he's never tried to smear his victims, or deny his guilt, or failed to be remorseful. He'll never repair the wreckage that he caused, but he's trying to do what he can. That's the difference.

Yes and if my uncle had tits he would be my aunty as they say. No Argyle fan can ever be the voice of reason over Ched while trying to gloss over what Luke did as his crime was far worse.

Have a look at the suicide rates for rape victims.

Cornish Chris wrote:

Angry wrote:

Cornish Chris wrote:

Angry wrote:

Cornish Chris wrote:

Lord Tisdale wrote:

Usual bunch of Hippos bloviating away, the boy done his time and the conviction was a joke, arse wipe he is, rapist? No chance.

If he hadn't been a footballer he would not have been convicted yet now because of the PC, holier than thou wanker brigade he can't get a job, I would take him in the blink of an eye and feck off any sponsors or so called fans who didn't like it.

Did you sit through all the evidence in court? Or have you just decided what is most convenient for the particular bees that are in your bonnet today?

Josh makes a good point - he's still serving a sentence for rape. Surely no club can touch him until either a) he's made a grovelling apology to his victim, or b) his conviction is overturned. McCormick was remorseful, and by all accounts spends most of his free time trying to make amends by volunteering to take part in drink-drive education work. Has Ched Evans done anything of the sort apart from try to smear the girl he raped?

There have been lots of good points made in favour of Evans' return so far on this thread, but I wouldn't feel comfortable employing him if it was down to me unless there's a serious show of remorse. Justice hasn't run its course just yet.

You are aware Luke is on licence still dont you?

But he's never tried to smear his victims, or deny his guilt, or failed to be remorseful. He'll never repair the wreckage that he caused, but he's trying to do what he can. That's the difference.

Yes and if my uncle had tits he would be my aunty as they say. No Argyle fan can ever be the voice of reason over Ched while trying to gloss over what Luke did as his crime was far worse.

Have a look at the suicide rates for rape victims.

Equally look at the suicide rates for victims of crime full stop. Doesnt strengthen anyones argument.

Cornish Chris wrote:

Angry wrote:

Cornish Chris wrote:

Lord Tisdale wrote:

Usual bunch of Hippos bloviating away, the boy done his time and the conviction was a joke, arse wipe he is, rapist? No chance.

If he hadn't been a footballer he would not have been convicted yet now because of the PC, holier than thou wanker brigade he can't get a job, I would take him in the blink of an eye and feck off any sponsors or so called fans who didn't like it.

Did you sit through all the evidence in court? Or have you just decided what is most convenient for the particular bees that are in your bonnet today?

Josh makes a good point - he's still serving a sentence for rape. Surely no club can touch him until either a) he's made a grovelling apology to his victim, or b) his conviction is overturned. McCormick was remorseful, and by all accounts spends most of his free time trying to make amends by volunteering to take part in drink-drive education work. Has Ched Evans done anything of the sort apart from try to smear the girl he raped?

There have been lots of good points made in favour of Evans' return so far on this thread, but I wouldn't feel comfortable employing him if it was down to me unless there's a serious show of remorse. Justice hasn't run its course just yet.

You are aware Luke is on licence still dont you?

But he's never tried to smear his victims, or deny his guilt, or failed to be remorseful. He'll never repair the wreckage that he caused, but he's trying to do what he can. That's the difference.

The point's been made before, but if you truly believe you've been wrongly convicted of, well, any serious crime really, then in your own mind you've nothing to be remorseful for or feel any real guilt. This is the line Evans is taking, so it puzzles me that people don't get why he isn't apologising every five minutes.

I'd have thought that his brief would had advised him as to whether an appeal was a complete non-starter, and it appears to be a case whereby enough doubt does still exist, despite the guilty verdict.

To carry the label of convicted rapist for the rest of your life is pretty major, if you are genuinely convinced you've been wronged.

Czarcasm wrote:

The point's been made before, but if you truly believe you've been wrongly convicted of, well, any serious crime really, then in your own mind you've nothing to be remorseful for or feel any real guilt. This is the line Evans is taking, so it puzzles me that people don't get why he isn't apologising every five minutes.

I'd have thought that his brief would had advised him as to whether an appeal was a complete non-starter, and it appears to be a case whereby enough doubt does still exist, despite the guilty verdict.

To carry the label of convicted rapist for the rest of your life is pretty major, if you are genuinely convinced you've been wronged.

Absolutley. And the 'beyond reasonable doubt' threshold for conviction of such a serious crime must be very high. There are such holes and fundamental flaws in the prosecution case along with the jury's verdict, coupled with new evidence that wasn't heard in court, that Evans's guilty verdict has every chance of being overturned - I'd be quite shocked if it wasn't. Meanwhile his rep is in tatters forever and his prime earning years as a pro-footballer have been and are being taken away from him.

Cases like this actually do more damage to the really legitimate cases of forced rape - this was not one of those cases. As Tis said earlier, arsewipe Evans maybe but rapist - no way.

Czarcasm wrote:

Cornish Chris wrote:

Angry wrote:

Cornish Chris wrote:

Lord Tisdale wrote:

Usual bunch of Hippos bloviating away, the boy done his time and the conviction was a joke, arse wipe he is, rapist? No chance.

If he hadn't been a footballer he would not have been convicted yet now because of the PC, holier than thou wanker brigade he can't get a job, I would take him in the blink of an eye and feck off any sponsors or so called fans who didn't like it.

Did you sit through all the evidence in court? Or have you just decided what is most convenient for the particular bees that are in your bonnet today?

Josh makes a good point - he's still serving a sentence for rape. Surely no club can touch him until either a) he's made a grovelling apology to his victim, or b) his conviction is overturned. McCormick was remorseful, and by all accounts spends most of his free time trying to make amends by volunteering to take part in drink-drive education work. Has Ched Evans done anything of the sort apart from try to smear the girl he raped?

There have been lots of good points made in favour of Evans' return so far on this thread, but I wouldn't feel comfortable employing him if it was down to me unless there's a serious show of remorse. Justice hasn't run its course just yet.

You are aware Luke is on licence still dont you?

But he's never tried to smear his victims, or deny his guilt, or failed to be remorseful. He'll never repair the wreckage that he caused, but he's trying to do what he can. That's the difference.

The point's been made before, but if you truly believe you've been wrongly convicted of, well, any serious crime really, then in your own mind you've nothing to be remorseful for or feel any real guilt. This is the line Evans is taking, so it puzzles me that people don't get why he isn't apologising every five minutes.

I'd have thought that his brief would had advised him as to whether an appeal was a complete non-starter, and it appears to be a case whereby enough doubt does still exist, despite the guilty verdict.

To carry the label of convicted rapist for the rest of your life is pretty major, if you are genuinely convinced you've been wronged.

If there had been any doubt at all in the minds of the jury (who heard all the evidence, unlike us) he would have been acquitted, as his co-accused was.

Cornish Chris wrote:

Czarcasm wrote:

Cornish Chris wrote:

Angry wrote:

Cornish Chris wrote:

Lord Tisdale wrote:

Usual bunch of Hippos bloviating away, the boy done his time and the conviction was a joke, arse wipe he is, rapist? No chance.

If he hadn't been a footballer he would not have been convicted yet now because of the PC, holier than thou wanker brigade he can't get a job, I would take him in the blink of an eye and feck off any sponsors or so called fans who didn't like it.

Did you sit through all the evidence in court? Or have you just decided what is most convenient for the particular bees that are in your bonnet today?

Josh makes a good point - he's still serving a sentence for rape. Surely no club can touch him until either a) he's made a grovelling apology to his victim, or b) his conviction is overturned. McCormick was remorseful, and by all accounts spends most of his free time trying to make amends by volunteering to take part in drink-drive education work. Has Ched Evans done anything of the sort apart from try to smear the girl he raped?

There have been lots of good points made in favour of Evans' return so far on this thread, but I wouldn't feel comfortable employing him if it was down to me unless there's a serious show of remorse. Justice hasn't run its course just yet.

You are aware Luke is on licence still dont you?

But he's never tried to smear his victims, or deny his guilt, or failed to be remorseful. He'll never repair the wreckage that he caused, but he's trying to do what he can. That's the difference.

The point's been made before, but if you truly believe you've been wrongly convicted of, well, any serious crime really, then in your own mind you've nothing to be remorseful for or feel any real guilt. This is the line Evans is taking, so it puzzles me that people don't get why he isn't apologising every five minutes.

I'd have thought that his brief would had advised him as to whether an appeal was a complete non-starter, and it appears to be a case whereby enough doubt does still exist, despite the guilty verdict.

To carry the label of convicted rapist for the rest of your life is pretty major, if you are genuinely convinced you've been wronged.

If there had been any doubt at all in the minds of the jury (who heard all the evidence, unlike us) he would have been acquitted, as his co-accused was.

But there was doubt -

At Caernarvon Crown Court the evidence was presented to the Jury over 8 days. The sitting Jury had been on Jury duty for 3 weeks. On Friday 20th April the Jury members left the Court to deliberate. After 4 hours, the Jury sent a message to the Judge saying that they could not come to a unanimous decision on both counts. The Judge chose not to exercise his discretion to give the Jury the option to return a majority verdict and sent them back out to further deliberate the case. It was clear that should the Jury not reach a unanimous decision by the end of that Friday session they would have to come back to the Court the following Monday and start what was for some a fourth week of service.
Approximately 50 minutes later the Jury returned two unanimous decisions - finding Clayton McDonald innocent and Ched Evans guilty. Clayton McDonald was acquitted. Ched Evans was sentenced to 5 years imprisonment.

It's just too bizarre and unacceptable when life-altering decisions of this magnitude are at stake.

As Josh said, the difference between the Evans matter and Luke's is the absence of remorse and contrition. I accept Angry's point that he HAS to say that with an appeal pending but the absence of any tangible form of reflection makes it completely different to Luke's as regards his 'rightful rehabilitation'.

It's high stakes poker he's playing. Because whether he genuinely feels hard done by or not if his appeal is thrown out he can't very well thereafter say he's accepted his guilt and make a heartfelt apology. No-one will accept it's genuine.

In both cases a court has decided guilt and sentence, what the crime was and the victim impact was make no difference in the cold hard eyes of the legal world. Both sentences having been served they are both entitled to rehabilitate into society. It's much easier however to support that 'black and white' legal position with a moral case for someone who pleaded guilty, showed genuine contrition and has conducted themselves very well in the face of unremitting hostility every Saturday. Evans has done none of that.

I can't see an end to it unless his appeal is upheld.

Ched and his family have been badly advised throughout this saga and essentially made this whole saga far worse by there actions than if Ched, like luke, just kept his head down, not court controversy.

Had i been advising them i Probably would have said hold off trying to get back into football till his appeal against the conviction was withheld or upheld.
Whatever the verdict then Ched should have then made a video stating how sorry he was for the whole saga, lessons learnt remorse etc etc etc said sorry to the girl in question more importantly THEN tried to make a come back into football.

Still would have had a backlash but never on this level and eventually a club would have been comfortable in signing him.

I do agree with much of what you say there.

Maybe his licence should be revoked if he continues with campaign to discredit the vitim ?

I would assume that once charges were levelled against him and a trial was looming then Evans would have been suspended by his club pending the outcome. This essentially is where we are right now except it is an appeal than is looming. Until the matter is resolved I don't see how he could be anything other than "suspended" - if he was under contract. The fact that he isn't changes nothing: he shouldn't even hope to be playing until after the appeal is heard.

After which if he is found to be innocent he can carry on immediately as per normal and if found to be guilty should be free to play again once released. If he can find a club that wants him bearing in mind he might then be, as he is now, a registered sex offender meaning all sorts of logistical complications regarding club mascots, training sessions, youth teams and other community work that he might be reasonably expected to perform as part of his contract.

This is exactly what has happened to McCormick (barring the sex offender angle) - and quite right too. It is for the courts to decide appropriate punishment for wrong-doing and McCormick has quietly taken his punishment as it has come whilst doing all he can to make amends. In this regard the McCormick and Evans cases are entirely different.

I'm perfectly comfortable with McCormick playing for Argyle but would be deeply unhappy for Evans to do so as things currently stand.