Shake up of leagues.Subject: FA to consider a new competition for Premier and Championship B teams..   

It will only benefit the elite clubs. B teams would be very costly - in the plan, they either have to rent a ground or purpose build a stadium, Man Utd B could not play at Old Trafford. There are other stipulations.

Quote :

We believe that the introduction of B teams into the English footballing system would greatly enhance the development of our most talented youngsters, many of whom currently play in the Under 21 Premier League with limited prospect of breaking the vicious circle of insufficient experience to make the jump to the first team. The key elements of our B team proposal are:

All Premier League clubs at the start of the 2015-16 season would be eligible for a B team to be playing in the lower leagues in 2016-17. It would be up to each individual club to decide whether or not it wanted one.

B teams would play in stadia, most likely a small stadium built expressly for the purpose or at a nearby lower league club’s stadium shared in return for investment in improved pitch and facilities.

Space for these clubs would be made primarily through the creation of a new League 3 within the Football League in 2016-17. This division would initially be made up of 20 clubs of which up to ten would be Premier League B teams and the other ten places would be taken by the top teams from the Conference Premier.

By creating spaces within the current footballing pyramid, no clubs would be displaced by this system.

There could be a later option of enlarging the new League 3 to 24 teams, depending on the number of Premier League clubs that eventually wanted or became eligible for a B team.

Should more than ten Premier League clubs want and be eligible for a B team in 2016-17, further B teams would initially play in the Conference Premier in that season.

There would be promotion and relegation between the four leagues – League 1, League 2, League 3 and Conference Premier. B teams would be unable to progress into the Championship and must always be at least one division below the senior team.

The reorganisation of the league system could allow the introduction of a universal three up, three down approach across all four leagues. It could also allow a reduction in league size, if that were desired.

B teams would not be able to play in The FA or League cups but it may make sense for them to be able to play in an enlarged Johnstone’s Paint Trophy.

B teams playing in the Football League or the Conference would not be voting members of those leagues. They will be associate members only.

The eventual structure and distribution of B teams would clearly be a decision for the clubs in the Football League and the Conference.

To ensure that B teams were used primarily for the development of young players, and to ensure fairness in league competition, we propose that:

At least 19 of the B team squad of 25 should be players under the age of 21 (at the start of the season) and only three on the match day team sheet of 18 players can be over 21.

At least 20 of the 25 players should qualify under the Home Grown player rules.

At least five of the 25 players should be club-grown players as per the UEFA definition22.

Non-EU players playing in England would not be able to play in the B team. In order to encourage first team experience, any B team player can be called into the first team squad at any time.

A player under 21 is not permitted to return to the B team once he has played more than ten games in the first team.

Unless they start at the very bottom how do you add 24 teams to the pyramid without displacing anybody?

Allowing slot-ins sets a precedence to bring Rangers and Celtic in.

That's the thing. Teams like Norwich, West Brom, Palace, Sunderland, Hull, Swansea etc. couldn't afford to do this. I'd say only ten clubs could fund this.

I forget the figures but the team finishing last in this year's PL will be given more "prize" money this year than Man Utd were given for winning the PL last.

They can all, easily, afford to finance it.

Not when they're spending that on their first team squad. Just for a comparison, Wayne Rooney earnt more last month than Barnet's entire budget for last season. These teams are paying ludicrous wages - when players leave top four Spanish sides to move to places like Stoke, it's obvious where that 'prize money' is going. Birmingham's Zigic is still earning £65k a week. QPR are and were being bankrolled by their owner rather than funding from their prize money.
I would be highy surprised if more than five would do this.

Man City
Man Utd
Liverpool
Chelsea
Arsenal
Tottenham (maybe making it six)

From the BBC

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There is also a ban on non-EU players, but only for leagues below the Premiership!

It's just another power-grab by the big Premiership clubs. If this goes ahead I can a load of the 'B Teams' clogging up the top end of League 1, financed by the ridiculous budgets of the Premiership. Effectively at least 10 league clubs are going to end up 'shoved down' to this League 3 to make way. Furthermore the B teams would appear and disappear on the whim of the current owners of the big Premiership clubs, totally destroying the nature of the lower league competitions.

Dyke said "Liverpool, the Manchester clubs, Stoke, Tottenham - they have no problems with me mentioning them on this - so quite a lot of clubs recognise the problem they have got," I think we can guess which sort of teams he is interested in helping!

Hopefully the Football League will be able to prevent this.

How to improve our youth development of home-grown talent.

Invest massive amounts of money (about 2% a year of the Sky TV deal/FA income) in grass roots. The local pitches are a state and so expensive to rent for a season - I ran a Sunday team a long while ago and it was about £1200 a season with pitch fees, insurance, league fees, kit, washing kit, attending meetings, postage (to pay all my fines) - it's likely a similar cost for youth teams.
Force all clubs to invest a % of budget to youth team football.
Pay coaches a flat rate at clubs - don't 'promote' the best coaches to the first team.
Allow kids to play football outside of structured leagues/school teams/PE - give children a safe place to play.
Educate players - offer education alongside coaching - it's currently a gamble and if you don't make it at 18, you often don't have the option to go into higher education - you're an ex-youth player with little other 'skills'.
Have a salary cap so our leagues aren't full of non-homegrown players. Arsenal and Man City often field teams featuring no English players.
Stop clubs registering 60+ players - the talent will filter down as players are forced to find other clubs.
Don't have B teams - feckin stupid.

Maybe the Football League [ if it has support from its members ]  , or failing that, all clubs who think the same way,should react by breaking away ?

A massive campaign.......... 'Real Football for Real Fans' / 'Back to Basics'  Caps on non England qualifying players per club. Youth academies essential. Trusts/ fans actively encouraged to own their clubs. Limits on admission charges.Salary caps. Safe standing etc etc

A brand new league structure for the bedrock and grass roots clubs and fans of England. Those clubs not invited/ joining the suggested Dyke Circus, could form a top division, followed by as many divisions as possible which could be regionalised north/south with one automatic promotion from each and play offs for the two second placed clubs against the clubs finishing 3rd/4th bottom in the higher league.

I can see such a venture catching on as many turn their backs on the fat cats and brats of the Premier League and return to their roots

Just an idea  

The top premiership clubs are the problem with the way that they hoard talent and not play them, also you have the lack of decent training and spotting of talent at grass roots level. This is down to the huge amounts of money being absorbed by ridiculous wages at the top. The football game is being run like the country is, just for the benefit of the top ten percent. There should be a union for young players who should be backed by the FA who should have a veto right on players contracts so that they could intervene if they weren't being played maybe?
I also think that Champions league is a curse, this is why top clubs and clubs that want to be top clubs have to have huge squads most of which only play occasionally.
Anyway it comes down to spotting and nurturing talent, our training has been criticised massively in recent years, has anything actually changed?

That's the nuclear option.

Besides the "break" happened with the formation of the PL.

If the FL denies access from below then the PL could deny access from above: No League 3 = No CCC promotion.

Then what?

I suspect that the "bigger" CCC teams would then apply to join the PL - I wouldn't be surprised to see Rangers and Celtic apply too - and we'd end up with either a two-tier PL or something akin to the NFL conference/divisional franchise structure with no relegation at all.

In time the FL would become, at best, semi-professional.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

That's the nuclear option.

Besides the "break" happened with the formation of the PL.

If the FL denies access from below then the PL could deny access from above: No League 3 = No CCC promotion.

Then what?

I suspect that the "bigger" CCC teams would then apply to join the PL - I wouldn't be surprised to see Rangers and Celtic apply too - and we'd end up with either a two-tier PL or something akin to the NFL conference/divisional franchise structure with no relegation at all.

In time the FL would become, at best, semi-professional.

It seems to be headed that way anyway. It was just a thought that there would be enough clubs of some potential in a breakaway league structure and most importantly a lot of fans might feel they'd got their clubs back. Pie in the sky I must admit and the best young talent would soon be lured away by the PL .
It was more a case of me thinking that a lot of football fans are really turned off by the game these days and this kind of thing might just bring the game back to them and create a stir, local pride, togetherness etc.

Iggy wrote:

The top premiership clubs are the problem with the way that they hoard talent and not play them, also you have the lack of decent training and spotting of talent at grass roots level. This is down to the huge amounts of money being absorbed by ridiculous wages at the top. The football game is being run like the country is, just for the benefit of the top ten percent. There should be a union for young players who should be backed by the FA who should have a veto right on players contracts so that they could intervene if they weren't being played maybe?
I also think that Champions league is a curse, this is why top clubs and clubs that want to be top clubs have to have huge squads most of which only play occasionally.
Anyway it comes down to spotting and nurturing talent, our training has been criticised massively in recent years, has anything actually changed?

The huge amounts of money that you refer to Iggy is between the PL & the TV companies....if they didn't service each others needs then the money wouldn't be there anyway....the lower leagues only get the dregs.....they would never get a good deal.....because they have only a second rate football quality to offer the TV companies.....supply and demand is the big king unfortunately.

Coming 6th in the premiership for big clubs,....this year for instance Man U is seen as failure.....not coming in the bottom two of DIV2 for others is seen as success.

When many premier stars earn far more in a year than the whole years budget for a vast number of FL clubs ....this then puts it into focus what football is all about.....as ABBA used to sing.....money......money......money.

Crap isn't it?

Having lost all interest in the PL and the england 'team' many years ago. I supported NZ at the last world cup and have absolutely no affinity to any of the England team at all. I wouldn't give Rooney a mop job and think England will continue to fail at international level for many decades to come. Fine. This is the price morons pay for the PL structure, and it suits me just fine. I find it hilarious. The choads! But to mess with the football league? That's different. The teams affected should form a beakaway league, its aim to have sustainable clubs and wages, free from gangster or shady debt ridden owners. What do league clubs actually get from the pl anyway? Not much to lose ay ratfans!

So Rooney is on more a month than barnets entire yearly budget. Thats obscene. He isn't even that good. In fact he's a choker and is shit for England when it actually counts. Or is injured. I thought the UK had had 6 years of deep recession - how do people equate this disgusting indulgence with their lives? Astonishing. The pl is a broken, debt ridden, souless, moribund brand dependent upon moronic dimwits tv subscriptions to keep the clubs creditors at bay.

For once footie fans are united, appears to be massive opposition to the idea of this and heard on radio 5 today that an onlline petition has started.
The worst thing about this is that Dyke (we love the premiership, feck the rest of football) is that they even thought of the B league plan which nicely illustrates their warped view of where professional football may be heading e.g into a land of corporate strerility.
  

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

That's the nuclear option.

Besides the "break" happened with the formation of the PL.

If the FL denies access from below then the PL could deny access from above: No League 3 = No CCC promotion.

Then what?
suspect that the "bigger" CCC teams would then apply to join the PL - I wouldn't be surprised to see Rangers and Celtic apply too - and we'd end up with either a two-tier PL or something akin to the NFL conference/divisional franchise structure with no relegation at all.

In time the FL would become, at best, semi-professional.

Ah, the old chestnut that is the two-tier Premier League and sod the rest.

The Conference are fuming as they have not been consulted about the idea of this B league and they, along with the Football League, are against the idea already and rightly so.

Dyke's plan will upset the apple cart that is the English pyramid system and i can see why there is anger and frustration within the ranks of the lower league clubs. It is hard enough for them as it is now and this plan will make it even harder.

The Premier League [and to a certain extent, the Championship] get all the cake and refuse to share it. Before the formation of the Premier League things were bearable, but after the Premier League was formed football began its very-very slow demise. We now have the 'haves' and 'have nots', but at least clubs can still rise in the ranks - Crawley, Fleetwood etc-etc..

The English football pyramid system as it is now [and always has been] is the envy of the World and to see that lost would be tragic.

akagreengull wrote:

For once footie fans are united, appears to be massive opposition to the idea of this and heard on radio 5 today that an onlline petition has started.
The worst thing about this is that Dyke (we love the premiership, feck the rest of football) is that they even thought of the B league plan which nicely illustrates their warped view of where professional football may be heading e.g into a land of corporate strerility.
  

21,000 signatures in a single day. Share amongst your friends.

Petition.

This bee is really buzzin' around my bonnet but my memory is hazy as to details - and they are important.

As I recall the PL was formed because the Div 1 teams at the time wanted to keep the TV money and not share it. Prior to 1992 the sums involved were so small they mattered little in comparison to gate receipts; post-1992 it was an entirely different matter.

The change was caused by the introduction of live televised football and the near contemperaneous start-ups of Sky TV and BSB.

Satellite TV cost loads to set up. Loads and loads. And, pretty much, nobody wanted it or wanted to pay the sums of money needed to recoup that money and turn a profit on top of which it had to be "stacked high and sold cheap" to generate a brand new market.

Sky was the entity with the deepest pockets and hardest business nous and realised that it needed something that people, addicts essentially, wouldn't want to do without and they settled on Sport. From that point they aggressively hoovered up exclusive rights all over and by controlling both the programming and the distribution saw off their rivals (so far BSB, Setanta, ITV Digital and ESPN have all tried to compete and have failed). And with their competition either obliterated or assimilated they began to hike the costs to their customers - once upon a time the idea of paying £100 per month just to watch the TV was untenable but now...

That huge investment at the beginning had various people, Alan Sugar amongst them, worried and their arses were making buttons that it would flop. Alan Sugar was involved because his company AMSTRAD made the set-top boxes and satellite dishes and a sa result he was very, very stretched.

Alan Sugar was also chairman of Spurs which meant that there was a not even thinly-veiled vested interest right from the start in Sky getting the PL deal. Which it did.

Sky was not the only bidder though because ITV and BBC were also in contention and the Head Of Sport (?) at one of them was Greg Dyke and Dyke had huge input in convincing the Div 1 clubs at the time to resign en masse so that they could pursue their own deal. Dyke must have been furious when Sky got it in the end but hey-ho, never mind, eh?

This massive shift in the game's structure was at the time sold to the public as "being for the benefit of the England team". Sounds familiar, doesn't it!

The plan, such as it was supposed to be, was to reduce the number of clubs in the top division meaing that fewer games would be played, the top players would play less often, suffer fewer injuries and be fresher for the summer international tournaments at which we would prosper. Since then, if we qualified, we have made the semi-final of the Euros once and gone no further than the QF in any tournament (in Italia 90, pre-PL, we made the SF of the World Cup).

By the FA/PL's own main criterion for the mass resignation from the FL and for effecting the change it has abjectly failed. And now it is doing it again.

Once the top clubs had a few free midweek evenings due to the fewer fixtures, reduced FA Cup replays and so on they filled the gap with an endless stream of mostly meaningless Champions League (which is not a League and most of the teams are not Champions, don't forget) or Europa League matches meaning that our top teams are playing more often than ever.

Now Dyke is back as Chairman (?) of the FA and the balance of power has shifted hugely; where once the FA was supposed to be in control of the PL it is now the mega-clubs who hold sway and have the FA running scared and acting as little more than a mouth-piece for them. Mega-clubs mostly owned and managed by foreigners who do not give a toss for the England team (even if their fans do - which largely they do not). Mega-clubs with vast incomes and, often, even vaster backing from their owners have stockpiles of players they can never expect to field and who are an obvious restriction to the chances to gain experience for their own, and everybody else's when they go out on loan, youngsters.

Just a tiny proportion of the TV money (I wonder if BT will succeed as a rival to Sky where so many others have failed?) that floods in would make an enormous difference to the number of coaches, the quality of pitches and so on if invested at grassroots level and the best players would eventually find a way through to the highest level - and the best of them would be good enough - without any PL interference at all.

It's a no-brainer, really, and the FA (if it was truly in charge) wouldn't even be giving the money away; it would only be transferring it from PL to the County FAs both of which it controls.

So why introduce a League 3? It can only be as a land grab and an attempt to infiltrate the Football League and ultimately only the PL clubs will benefit with everybody else paying for that benefit. How else do you explain why the PL clubs, but not the FL or conference ones, were consulted?

This is Supporters Direct response.

And this is a spot-on response from the Chair of a non-league club.

I read in the paper today that the Football League will get £2 million per club, per year to get them on board with the league Three idea [what is this then, a bribe/compensation/sweetener].

Another article in the paper was that of Paulton Rovers, who have won promotion to the Calor Southern League Premier Division, it is the 7th tier in the pyramid and is the highest they have ever got to. Dyke's plans would kill the dream of the little clubs, so adds the paper..

knecht wrote:

This is Supporters Direct response.

And this is a spot-on response from the Chair of a non-league club.

Supporters direct say pretty well what I did. I would add in reply to Zyphe earlier he said that the tv money is only between the top clubs and the tv companies, this isn't a problem because they are all governed by the FA, the FAncould "tax" if you like the tv money or any other money by making the top clubs pay a tax if you will.

Adrian Durham passionately chewed Greg Dyke up on talksport.

Many don't like the 'white van man station' but talk about getting the message across.... in front of millions of football viewers.

Good on him and talksport for taking the stance again big money Prem interests, and their plastic followers.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

That's the nuclear option.

Besides the "break" happened with the formation of the PL.

If the FL denies access from below then the PL could deny access from above: No League 3 = No CCC promotion.

Then what?

I suspect that the "bigger" CCC teams would then apply to join the PL - I wouldn't be surprised to see Rangers and Celtic apply too - and we'd end up with either a two-tier PL or something akin to the NFL conference/divisional franchise structure with no relegation at all.

In time the FL would become, at best, semi-professional.

Personally I don't feel we'd suffer too badly if the Premier League pulled up the drawbridge and made itself a closed shop. In time their competition would go very stale and without the 'parachute payment' clubs causing the Championship to become an unequal playing field, clubs like Argyle would stand a better chance of competing if/when they got up to Championship level.

F**k 'em I say, better to make a clean break than be killed off by stealth. Because that's what'll happen with B teams, eventually they'll fill up L1 as the EPL hoard all their fringe players instead of loaning them out to established FL clubs. Barring a miracle or a sugar daddy unless we made the championship in years 5-10 from the inception of B teams then we'd be stuck in L1 or L2 forever. Wave goodbye to the filthy rich and then have a chance at reaching the championship.

Another thought, what if England win the world cup this summer?

OK, I know, far fetched, but surely if that happened there'd be no need for all this (sham) reform.

I've long since stopped getting excited about the national team, I can't identify with any of it. Awful people on the pitch, an awful 'build 'em up and knock 'em down' media attitude, rampant commercial exploitation on the back of tournaments and questionable 'EDL types' associating with it all.

But if it meant the end of this complete cock stench of a plan, sign me up to team Engurlund!

Here is a report from the Mail on the fury caused by Dyke's plan..

When Dyke began he did not know how the Football League would respond. But their statement, which landed on every mobile phone in the auditorium, said Dyke’s report did ‘not contain a solution that is acceptable’ and called for a ‘solution that meets its stated objective but does not leave the Football League carrying a disproportionate or unreasonable burden’.

A deflated Dyke said: ‘That’s about what I expected'.

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