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Post subject: Grandstand 4PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:49 pm
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It's slightly too small for me, I would have like about 21,000, but the money isn't there.

I don't get this 'don't build it at all' mantra, we need to populate that area behind the dugouts, and knock down that dog of a stand sooner rather than later.

If we don't, we'll continue to laze around mid table of the basement for the foreseeable future.

Moi:
[the money isn't there ?] A max extra £2million for an inspiring grandstand and the ability to expand, as with the AFT WG plans ?

The Grumpy Loyal
Post subject: Re: 25 Years Ago Today! (v Everton FA Cup)PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:15 pm
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The thing is I could just about accept the small stand if it were designed in a futureproof manner which meant expansion was at the heart of the initial planning.

But it aint. It's being boxed in by an Ice Rink and strangled by an access road which realistically kills any expansion prospects.

It's so sad but you'd be hard pressed to find a better example of the meek Janner championing of mediocrity.


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Post subject: Grandstand 5PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:21 pm
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You could say Janners not turning up for games when we were in the CCC. "We're fed up with watching Wolves, Covenrty, Derby and Norwich" was a major reason why mediocrity has occurred.

I won't go on, you have your views, I have mine, and others have theirs.

Moi:

Hull, Brighton, Swansea, Reading, Cardiff etc etc have all only had lift off[ better crowds than Argyle, like for like league status] since they acquired forward thinking and 'we mean business' stadia. Brent's HP will only inspire the usual suspects to continue their self promoting Avivafest. No new blood will be interested.

Tringreen wrote:

Moi:

Hull, Brighton, Swansea, Reading, Cardiff etc etc have all only had lift off[ better crowds than Argyle, like for like league status] since they acquired forward thinking and 'we mean business' stadia. Brent's HP will only inspire the usual suspects to continue their self promoting Avivafest. No new blood will be interested.

For the very last time.

Brighton, Cardiff, Hull and Reading have all had tens of millions pumped into them, they didn't get where they are, and there is a fair chance all of them could be in the Championship next season, because they had a nice ground built for them, they got there because some knob jockey with far too much money decided to spunk it on them.

Brent is not like that, he never said he was, give it up with the constant staring at somebody else's cookie jar, you don't got no ice cream.

Coventry City had the first all seater stadium and have won the FA cup, and look where they are now.

Lord Tisdale wrote:

Tringreen wrote:

Moi:

Hull, Brighton, Swansea, Reading, Cardiff etc etc have all only had lift off[ better crowds than Argyle, like for like league status] since they acquired forward thinking and 'we mean business' stadia. Brent's HP will only inspire the usual suspects to continue their self promoting Avivafest. No new blood will be interested.

For the very last time.

Brighton, Cardiff, Hull and Reading have all had tens of millions pumped into them, they didn't get where they are, and there is a fair chance all of them could be in the Championship next season, because they had a nice ground built for them, they got there because some knob jockey with far too much money decided to spunk it on them.

Brent is not like that, he never said he was, give it up with the constant staring at somebody else's cookie jar, you don't got no ice cream.

The HHP development, if built to the AFT WG plans at minimal extra cost to Brent's £150 million total Plymouth development , would have provided the all important finished and impressive new stadium impact, with room for expansion in the future. That is what inspires the latent support base to 'buy in'.
Admittedly, owners and sponsors with just enough vision and cash backed ambition does make a huge difference and is why Pulis went back to Stoke. Hull and Swansea councils backed their sports clubs, Plymouth's backed the banker.

Even less in attendance tonight, important point though as we now seem to be a couple of places above the local mega team.

We are the new Torquay, tinpot and skint, but just how crap must the teams below us be?

Crap enough to lose 4 - 0 at home to York.

To my memory Cardiff didn't have millions pumped into the club they just ran up a £30m overdraft and managed to maintain it until they cracked the PL. not a very wise business model I would venture but that's how they did it. If we were signing the calibre of players that Cardiff were at that time I guess we would sustain it as well as would city (unless your ground collapsed under the strain of a three figure crowd.)

Lord Tisdale wrote:

Tringreen wrote:

Moi:

Hull, Brighton, Swansea, Reading, Cardiff etc etc have all only had lift off[ better crowds than Argyle, like for like league status] since they acquired forward thinking and 'we mean business' stadia. Brent's HP will only inspire the usual suspects to continue their self promoting Avivafest. No new blood will be interested.

For the very last time.

Brighton, Cardiff, Hull and Reading have all had tens of millions pumped into them, they didn't get where they are, and there is a fair chance all of them could be in the Championship next season, because they had a nice ground built for them, they got there because some knob jockey with far too much money decided to spunk it on them.

Brent is not like that, he never said he was, give it up with the constant staring at somebody else's cookie jar, you don't got no ice cream.

Can ANYBODY afford to be in the CCC? Hull and Cardiff, both promoted last season, each lost around £30m. Brighton, with the best attendances in the CCC last season, also lost around that much money. Leeds United are currently losing at least £1m per month. EVERYBODY in the CCC is losing money at a frightening rate as they chase promotion to the PL.

This is unsustainable.

It is also grossly unfair.

If you look at Yeovil, who are attempting to keep some sort of handle on income/expenditure, they are bottom of the league, barely competitive and virtual dead certs for relegation.

It's all madness. Football has elected to follow a financial model where administration is a virtual certainty for nearly every club competing within the structures it has created for itself. This wouldn't be so bad if the profligate were actually, genuinely punished by being forced out of existence but this rarely happens. Instead it is those unfortunate enough to be owed unsecured debt, the bulk of which usually is owed to the Inland Revenue (and so is effectively paid by me, you and every other tax payer in what amounts to being an expensive government subsidy not only propping up a failing industry but actually creating the circumstances that allow, maybe even compel, it to fail).

I fully support James Brent's reluctance to embrace this lunacy. Why should he, or anybody else, be expected to pump limitless millions into striving for success that will ultimately cost him even more millions needed at an ever increasing rate?

What I cannot support is the rather more aggressive asset-stripping that he has adopted as a means to lumber us with an inadequate ground with no hope of further expansion. James Brent has "bought" Argyle without actually spending any of his own money on it. This may be legal, it may even be "great business", but it is hardly great entrepreneurialism. Brent stands to reap huge rewards, in fact he's had about £8m already out of PCC in one form or another so it could be argued that he has ALREADY been hugely rewarded) and he should be accepting some of the risk along the way.

It isn't the 17000 proposed capacity limit that is a problem; the problem is that that is all it can ever be. Just imagine that one day Brent's careful financial stewardship actually brings success to Home Park... Just like last time we won't be able to exploit that success. Once again we'll fail and once again we'll fall back.

And it doesn't have to be like that.

Iggy wrote:

To my memory Cardiff didn't have millions pumped into the club they just ran up a £30m overdraft and managed to maintain it until they cracked the PL.

Errr, not quite Iggster, the 30 mill came from a front company for some of Sam Hammam's dodgy 'known associates', so in effect they did "have millions pumped in" in the form of loans, the Ridsdale infused debacle which followed exacerbated the club's financial position before VT stepped in with a bucket load of cash, the eventual cost of getting up was I believe well in excess of £60 million, not such a bad deal as the club will receive £100 million plus over the next five years, even if they get relegated this season.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

Lord Tisdale wrote:

Tringreen wrote:

Moi:

Hull, Brighton, Swansea, Reading, Cardiff etc etc have all only had lift off[ better crowds than Argyle, like for like league status] since they acquired forward thinking and 'we mean business' stadia. Brent's HP will only inspire the usual suspects to continue their self promoting Avivafest. No new blood will be interested.

For the very last time.

Brighton, Cardiff, Hull and Reading have all had tens of millions pumped into them, they didn't get where they are, and there is a fair chance all of them could be in the Championship next season, because they had a nice ground built for them, they got there because some knob jockey with far too much money decided to spunk it on them.

Brent is not like that, he never said he was, give it up with the constant staring at somebody else's cookie jar, you don't got no ice cream.

Can ANYBODY afford to be in the CCC? Hull and Cardiff, both promoted last season, each lost around £30m. Brighton, with the best attendances in the CCC last season, also lost around that much money. Leeds United are currently losing at least £1m per month. EVERYBODY in the CCC is losing money at a frightening rate as they chase promotion to the PL.

This is unsustainable.

It is also grossly unfair.

If you look at Yeovil, who are attempting to keep some sort of handle on income/expenditure, they are bottom of the league, barely competitive and virtual dead certs for relegation.

It's all madness. Football has elected to follow a financial model where administration is a virtual certainty for nearly every club competing within the structures it has created for itself. This wouldn't be so bad if the profligate were actually, genuinely punished by being forced out of existence but this rarely happens. Instead it is those unfortunate enough to be owed unsecured debt, the bulk of which usually is owed to the Inland Revenue (and so is effectively paid by me, you and every other tax payer in what amounts to being an expensive government subsidy not only propping up a failing industry but actually creating the circumstances that allow, maybe even compel, it to fail).

I fully support James Brent's reluctance to embrace this lunacy. Why should he, or anybody else, be expected to pump limitless millions into striving for success that will ultimately cost him even more millions needed at an ever increasing rate?

What I cannot support is the rather more aggressive asset-stripping that he has adopted as a means to lumber us with an inadequate ground with no hope of further expansion. James Brent has "bought" Argyle without actually spending any of his own money on it. This may be legal, it may even be "great business", but it is hardly great entrepreneurialism. Brent stands to reap huge rewards, in fact he's had about £8m already out of PCC in one form or another so it could be argued that he has ALREADY been hugely rewarded) and he should be accepting some of the risk along the way.

It isn't the 17000 proposed capacity limit that is a problem; the problem is that that is all it can ever be. Just imagine that one day Brent's careful financial stewardship actually brings success to Home Park... Just like last time we won't be able to exploit that success. Once again we'll fail and once again we'll fall back.

And it doesn't have to be like that.

The situation is ridiculous. Even more so when the money is going straight to players. They are not getting into debt to improve facilities (the ground or training grounds) or marketing or reaching out to the local community.

And why should the players care when in admin they get a first protected dibs on any money going. Imagine a situation where any players were trwated like Joe Soap in thwe case of admin. Would it make them think twice about joining a badly run club? Would agents and players begin to ask to see the clubs balance sheet before signing on the dotted line? Perhaps. Perhaps not.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

What I cannot support is the rather more aggressive asset-stripping

See there you go again, what assets did he strip?

You were £17 million in debt, didn't have a pot to pith in and the only asset, the ground, now belongs to PCC.

Just because the guy is looking like he might be able to make something happen with a piece of land which was and would have remained pretty much derelict you guys constantly whine like stuck pigs.

Without Brent, or someone else exactly like him, you would be playing Saltash with a committee of spacked out, spannery Janners with their demi god Porky running the show.

Asset strippers take money out of the asset shorn business, Brent certainly hasn't pumped any real cash in, but he isn't holidaying in Dubai on the money he is getting out.

ps. It is also wrong to suggest that the 17k cap with the Diddy stand could not subsequently be increased, of course it could, there would be no issue of engineering, merely cost. Getting into the Premiership would never be constrained by being able to get an extra 3 or 4 thousand plastics in on a match day, they might add an extra £2 million at most to the annual turnover, you do not buy your way into the big boy's club with a measly 2 Bar.

That's bollocks Tis and you know it, to disprove your theory that we NEED Brent I will use two words, Exeter City. Now didn't you go in and out of admin. without having any land of value pass into the hands of a developer? How would you feel if Brent rocked up at Sid James and got given your car park to save the Northcott Theatre? The whole problem with Brent's plans in my opinion is that they aren't sustainable, for the club, for the businesses involved and much less for the city in which I grew up in which also provides an income for most of our extended family. It's easy for you exiles you can watch what you want, pretend that you are one of the big guys and therefore purport to understand them, what it seems you will never understand is how we feel, you are too detached from our version of reality and it shows. When you do return you will no doubt become another one of the incomers plaguing our local councils and comittees with up your pension subsidising your city aspirations for different town, infrastructure and economy that you have never and will never really understand.
You think you're clever but you are just isolated from our reality and just don't understand it.

I'm sure you know what an ad hominem is Iggy, If not go look it up then come back and address the issues I raised rather than shuffling along with a fairly asinine piece of character assassination.

"two words, Exeter City." If it is utter blocks you want look no further, the situation we were in bore no comparison, we were 4 bar in not 17, we didn't own the ground, we were in the Conference, we already had our Trust up and running with a more than usable wad in hand and having finally seen sense Ivor had handed over a controlling interest. We had a far smaller problem as well as some structure for a rescue, you had nothing, yet had we not got that Man Utd draw we might still have not managed to clear the £750k CVA without slipping further down the ladder or at the very least spending much longer in the wilderness.

You were skint, had no unity of purpose, no Trust, no unity in the fannage, pretty much like now, and no clue how to deal with the problem, jeez man you all sucked Ridsdale's putrid knob, you needed someone with gravitas, knowhow, credibility and a hint of a nice few quid in the background, Brent was the only game in town, how much of said gravitas, knowhow, credibility and money turns out to be wishful thinking remains to be seen.

Me, I think you could be an awful lot worse off than you are under Brent, but you carry on spouting you words of Janner wisdom and settle back happily in denial, I don't mind a bit of low level, vitriolic, banter, but not now and not then would the way you or anybody else felt about things have made a scrap of difference to the men who had control of your club, Brent did a fabulous job of shafting Brenda up the Horse and Dray, he deserves some Kudos for that alone. You lot could have stood there blubbing and singing your Janner songs for as long as you liked and Brenda would have waltzed home to Spannerland with a load more cash leaving PAFC in more poo than you have ever seen, I am literally stunned by your inability to give any thanks for even the smallest mercies, it's a good job you have got Porky and Webb to kiss the Brent butt or he might have dropped this particular dead donkey already.

Look the question in a nutshell was "what if someone like Brent did it to your club?" I know that comparing the two clubs is ridiculous for reasons we are all aware of.

Lord Tisdale wrote:

Brent did a fabulous job of shafting Brenda up the Horse and Dray, he deserves some Kudos for that alone. You lot could have stood there blubbing and singing your Janner songs for as long as you liked and Brenda would have waltzed home to Spannerland with a load more cash leaving PAFC in more poo than you have ever seen, I am literally stunned by your inability to give any thanks for even the smallest mercies, it's a good job you have got Porky and Webb to kiss the Brent butt or he might have dropped this particular dead donkey already.

Absolute tosh as usual Tiddles.    Ever thought that the process was orchestrated and that there were understandings shared of what was required to create a balance sheet that would stand coming out of admin with the club laden with debt ?
Do you know anything at all about accounting ? Bar this and bar that. Your favourite latin gets it's normal mention. All you forgot was the trademark .....Oh Duh ! 
As for everything else, just another example of your obvious agreement with the Nool gang, which boils down to the same old whine " You should grateful to have a club to support". Everything else is fluff.
 I reckon I could sell you anything if I had a mind to. Your gate is wide open and screams. 

Winter Green wrote:

Lord Tisdale wrote:

Brent did a fabulous job of shafting Brenda up the Horse and Dray, he deserves some Kudos for that alone. You lot could have stood there blubbing and singing your Janner songs for as long as you liked and Brenda would have waltzed home to Spannerland with a load more cash leaving PAFC in more poo than you have ever seen, I am literally stunned by your inability to give any thanks for even the smallest mercies, it's a good job you have got Porky and Webb to kiss the Brent butt or he might have dropped this particular dead donkey already.

Absolute tosh as usual Tiddles.    Ever thought that the process was orchestrated and that there were understandings shared of what was required to create a balance sheet that would stand coming out of admin with the club laden with debt ?
Do you know anything at all about accounting ? Bar this and bar that. Your favourite latin gets it's normal mention. All you forgot was the trademark .....Oh Duh ! 
As for everything else, just another example of your obvious agreement with the Nool gang, which boils down to the same old whine " You should grateful to have a club to support". Everything else is fluff.
 I reckon I could sell you anything if I had a mind to. Your gate is wide open and screams. 

Breeze blocks for a new away end toilet block!  

Can't believe you are being told by the Tisdale hating Shity supporter that Brent is our best option and responding to his wind ups, come on you lot tell him to feck off!
  

Shhhh. He'll be along in a minute  

Iggy wrote:

Look the question in a nutshell was "what if someone like Brent did it to your club?" I know that comparing the two clubs is ridiculous for reasons we are all aware of.

Iggy much much better than if a Fans Trust ever took over Home Park...No money, no business acumen and no crowds...Don't you just love fans trusts,,,,

You mean you're not a member of the AFT greensleeves,,,,,,,,,,,,,is it your job to try to discredit them ?

Jack..Dont believe everything you hear about Fans Trusts,a lot of clubs do very well without them..

greensleeves wrote:

Jack..Dont believe everything you hear about Fans Trusts,a lot of clubs do very well without them..

name some,,,,,,

man utd have 2   

akagreengull wrote:

Can't believe you are being told by the Tisdale hating Shity supporter that Brent is our best option and responding to his wind ups, come on you lot tell him to feck off!
  

AGG, We're not responding to his wind-ups. We like to string him along for his comedic value. The problem is he's a bit too dim to realise.  

Await Tizzie's response in 3,2,1..................  

Winter Green wrote:

Lord Tisdale wrote:

Brent did a fabulous job of shafting Brenda up the Horse and Dray, he deserves some Kudos for that alone. You lot could have stood there blubbing and singing your Janner songs for as long as you liked and Brenda would have waltzed home to Spannerland with a load more cash leaving PAFC in more poo than you have ever seen, I am literally stunned by your inability to give any thanks for even the smallest mercies, it's a good job you have got Porky and Webb to kiss the Brent butt or he might have dropped this particular dead donkey already.

Absolute tosh as usual Tiddles.    Ever thought that the process was orchestrated and that there were understandings shared of what was required to create a balance sheet that would stand coming out of admin with the club laden with debt ?
Do you know anything at all about accounting ? Bar this and bar that. Your favourite latin gets it's normal mention. All you forgot was the trademark .....Oh Duh ! 
As for everything else, just another example of your obvious agreement with the Nool gang, which boils down to the same old whine " You should grateful to have a club to support". Everything else is fluff.
 I reckon I could sell you anything if I had a mind to. Your gate is wide open and screams. 

Are you all terminally dim down that way ?

I know you don't like me, get over that and try listing just the one asset Brent has stripped and pocketed?

Brent backed off and gave anyone else that wanted to a free run at 'the prize', no chance of getting trampled in the rush there, he played a v canny game allowing Brenda to paint himself into a corner, that is exactly the kind of clued up guy I would want on my team, trouble with you lot is you can't see past your dislike of the Pig so you drone on and on about how bas for PAFC he has been, time to wise up schmucks, OB1 Kebrenty was, is and will continue to be your only hope.

Oh, and sorry, ad hominem is the way you say it, if you doughnuts could learn to address the actual points made I wouldn't need to keep using it.

akagreengull wrote:

Can't believe you are being told by the Tisdale hating Shity supporter that Brent is our best option and responding to his wind ups, come on you lot tell him to feck off!
  

Not only best option, only option.