Sleeping Giant

You are probably right about Brent putting his hand in his own pocket and I accept he probably won't. I do not accept he has put his hand to own pocket so far even at the point of take over so I'm easily persuaded he won't ever. I also accept that like the majority I don't understand the finer points of business in who pays for what and where they get the money from.

All I'm basing what I've said on is that there does not appear to be a sound business reason for anyone to build more than is reasonably necessary in our history. Fans around the world would always opt for the biggest and best thing they could imagine because that's what fans do. The people who do the actual deeds on their behalf will always opt for the least expensive and what they can reasonably get away with. Unless of course they have so much ego and money that none of it matters. I do find though that people generally always are willing to spend other people's money and find it easy to justify. If or when it came to their own then suddenly the posts move and the keaness wanes very rapidly. Football fans are the least honest of them all when it comes to opinion on their club. They would give everything to the club if they had it. Trouble is they will never be put to the test. If you won £50m would you spend £50m on Argyle? Honestly would you outside of your dream world?

Tringreen wrote:

I still believe it but with the clusterfuck and the Aviva mentality prevailing, it's looking less likely than ever.

We could have emulated the rise of Ipswich, Norwich and Southampton back in the 60's and on a few other occasions notably with Tony Waiters.

We could have emulated Hull, Cardiff and Swansea in recent years. We were no worse supported than any of them, like for like.

Anyone who is a long standing fan, with a modicum of vision and understanding of the club and of English football, knows it to be true.

Brent's self promoting jamboys still blame stay away janners when the other clubs mentioned were no different in the same position. These ever present but parochial fans, have settled for a lower league future, in return for positions within the club.

Most others will just settle for the recent modest improvement on the pitch but the bigger picture remains devastating for anyone with vision.

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True,but perhaps that is down to some (and notably a certain individual not too long ago !!) who would not push the boat. Maybe if decisions had been taken,then who knows what the topic of debate would have been today.

Now we find ourselves where we are right now,scuffing around League Two in an attempt to get out of it. When [and perhaps,if] that happens,nobody really knows the answer ?..

OMG, I take my eye off the ball for ten minutes and Tring runs this old chestnut up the flag pole for the umpteenth time, what is your malfunction man? You have never been a big club and god willing you never will be one.

GET OVER IT !!!!

Lord Tisdale wrote:

OMG, I take my eye off the ball for ten minutes and Tring runs this old chestnut up the flag pole for the umpteenth time, what is your malfunction man? You have never been a big club and god willing you never will be one.

GET OVER IT !!!!

Wondered how long it would take for this twat to poke his nose in.

Tringreen wrote:

The clusterfuck screams lower league

I couldn't agree more with you Tringy, but your answer is to concrete over another vast swathe of someone else's municipal park. I couldn't possibly agree with that, as a daily user of the park. The world is full of people building on other people's gardens, while they mow their own grass with a cool beer.

It also appears your answer to Brent's tenure ( I'm also one that wishes he had never rocked up to Home Park ) is to get in another benign dictator. What sort of bankrupt idea is that ? Just how many benign dictators are there ? I haven't noticed many in my time on the planet, but plenty of the Todds, Ridsdales and Brents.
I'm actually interested though. What would your vision of a benign dictator be, and how much would his benign gift to the club cost him ?

Sensiblegreeny wrote:

What about the vast majority of Plymothians who are not the slightest interested in what happens to Argyle?    Do they get ignored because "the fans" buy in?    It is Brent's choice mainly because Brent is the owner and it is his cash on the line ultimately.    You have invested nothing at all yet you want to have a say on how he spends his.    And the reason he should listen to you is?

Two things Iggy, firstly James Brent isn't my mate and second is I didn't say anything about a £10m stadium.    The price is the overall cost of everything.

Yep we are down to a core 6 -7k attenders after 5 seasons of assorted faliure, but rationally that does equate to the "vast majority" of the Plymouth population who are disinterested. If we use that argument we might as well all come on this forum and back Brent to the hilt.
P.S. Sensible - are you a Lib Dem voter by any chance?   

Winter Green wrote:

Tringreen wrote:

The clusterfuck screams lower league

I couldn't agree more with you Tringy, but your answer is to concrete over another vast swathe of someone else's municipal park. I couldn't possibly agree with that, as a daily user of the park. The world is full of people building on other people's gardens, while they mow their own grass with a cool beer.

It also appears your answer to Brent's tenure ( I'm also one that wishes he had never rocked up to Home Park ) is to get in another benign dictator. What sort of bankrupt idea is that ? Just how many benign dictators are there ? I haven't noticed many in my time on the planet, but plenty of the Todds, Ridsdales and Brents.
I'm actually interested though. What would your vision of a benign dictator be, and how much would his benign gift to the club cost him ?

I believe the 'benign dictator' thing was me referring to how I would run AT almost D   

I understand your green credentials but wouldn't it be better to take one muddy football pitch in order to develop HHP with some style and wow factor, with the football ground and ice rink being of a standard to host top level club sport. Where football/ rugby and ice hockey/basketball would have homes to be truly proud of ? That kind of ambition would have a real chance of being rewarded by the wider public interested in sport and not just the already terminally addicted, most of whom are now getting old.

All those sporting facilities you talk of would have to be paid for by Plymouth Council. They haven't the money any more, and of course where is the demand ?
Anything built in the park, outside of residential/student/government grant stuff, cannot support itself financially.

I've always laughed at the "Plymouth should have an ice hockey team to be proud of". Why ?
Do you know how often it snows or freezes in Plymouth ? How many people play ice hockey in Plymouth ? Pure business plan bullshit. Perhaps we should have a home for Plymouth lacrosse worldbeaters based here as well.
It's the sort of Blairite/Thatcherite nonsense that has given us failing malls all over the country. It's all property driven, not socially driven by demand for the good of the community.
Or are you saying we should be led to water, as we can't drink of our own initiative without being prodded ? 

Winter Green wrote:

All those sporting facilities you talk of would have to be paid for by Plymouth Council. They haven't the money any more, and of course where is the demand ?
Anything built in the park, outside of residential/student/government grant stuff, cannot support itself financially.

I've always laughed at the "Plymouth should have an ice hockey team to be proud of". Why ?
Do you know how often it snows or freezes in Plymouth ? How many people play ice hockey in Plymouth ? Pure business plan bullshit. Perhaps we should have a home for Plymouth lacrosse worldbeaters based here as well.
It's the sort of Blairite/Thatcherite nonsense that has given us failing malls all over the country. It's all property driven, not socially driven by demand for the good of the community.
Or are you saying we should be led to water, as we can't drink of our own initiative without being prodded ? 

OK but the ice rink IS part of the development. I do agree with you largely but if you're going to do it, do it well is my thinking. Big enough for possibly national league ice hockey, basketball and ice shows as well as a recreational ice facility.
I remember as a skinny kid not learning to swim in the freezing sea water pools until they built Ballards ? Plymouth was probably the last major city to have an indoor pool too .
PCC is bending over backwards for the clusterfuck and I'm confident 'could' squeeze something better and lasting from him. If Argyle or Albion ever got to the top flight it would of course benefit the whole city in many ways, not least national recognition.

That's if he has the money available to finance it. And he may not.

If Home Park was replaced by a Waitrose, no hotel,no ice rink, no dentist et al
MORE Plymothians would use it than ever attend football............... that's what we are up against.

PatDunne wrote:

If Home Park was replaced by a Waitrose, no hotel,no ice rink, no dentist et al
MORE Plymothians would use it than ever attend football............... that's what we are up against.

It is not particular to Plymouth. Other cities didn't support their clubs any better until the club/city showed ambition and vision.

Don't talk sense Pat.

I'd like to know how a council that needs to save over £60m over the next three years can fund a Premier League standard stadium for a League 2 club. Failing that, where is this individual with £100m+ to throw into the club so we can emulate someone like Fulham.

hairy j wrote:

Don't talk sense Pat.

I'd like to know how a council that needs to save over £60m over the next three years can fund a Premier League standard stadium for a League 2 club. Failing that, where is this individual with £100m+ to throw into the club so we can emulate someone like Fulham.

Just because the council can't afford to build the new grandstand properly doesn't mean they have to sell off assets and land within the park, leading to a total change of use. And that's before we even get to the other parcel of land, and the Council depot they are vacating for some reason next year.
£650 m they had a few years back. I wonder what assets they'll be left with in 5 years time.

How about if you had a legalised brothel and casino instead of the hotel.

What a stupid comment. Pointless.

Lol...  

You  say that WinterG, but I remember for several months (if not years) it was heavily rumoured on the farm that indeed a casino would be built and how lucrative it would be for the club.

It never occurred to any of them why the council would just give the 'rights' away for something so lucrative to Argyle?

So I suppose you are right..  It was a stupid comment.  But in Pepsi's defence, I think he was being sarcastic?

Tip pot plymouth im afraid.
That will never change.
Any period of 'success' would attract the crowds along with new facilities
Problem is biggest ground brents been to is possibly ours ! Thats the problem.

Tringreen wrote:

PatDunne wrote:

If Home Park was replaced by a Waitrose, no hotel,no ice rink, no dentist et al
MORE Plymothians would use it than ever attend football............... that's what we are up against.

It is not particular to Plymouth. Other cities didn't support their clubs any better until the club/city showed ambition and vision.

Exactly hull cardiff swansea superb examples. Cardiff had 3k , hull & swansea 4k twenty years ago.

Rickler wrote:

Lol...  

You  say that WinterG, but I remember for several months (if not years) it was heavily rumoured on the farm that indeed a casino would be built and how lucrative it would be for the club.

It never occurred to any of them why the council would just give the 'rights' away for something so lucrative to Argyle?

So I suppose you are right..  It was a stupid comment.  But in Pepsi's defence, I think he was being sarcastic?

Cos I was being sarcastic.

In that case, I apologise, Pete. I did think it was a bit trite.
Thanks Ricks, I don't remember the casino thing being mentioned Must have been during my sabatical. Sadly, as I am so used to so many fans being quite happy to have absolutely anything in the park, it is a continuing sore. It is in fact THE main reason why I can't support Brent way and above his regrettable use of super fans ... his desire to introduce retailing into a park, and at the club's expense, to boot, it would appear. It shows the measure of the man.

Tringreen wrote:

Clubs of a similar size catchment wise have inspired their potential fanbases.

Hull, Swansea, Cardiff, Reading, Brighton etc etc. to name a few recently.

We box our ground in to lower league bully boy level and put dentists and schools in the corners. How totally village.

There is certainly something in the water. Attendances in the past do have relevance particularly for a club with no top flight history.
I repeat........... for one family in particular, Cardiff, Swansea and Hull were no better supported than Argyle in similar positions.
What they did was build to inspire. PCC could have done the same and demanded that whomsoever they chose for the development, would do it well and do it with the wow factor or don't do it at all.

Agree entirely with the above, sums up my thoughts on the whole episode. Clubs/cities historically of a similar stature to Plymouth all have the vision, and belief to complete a stadium they see as befitting of their club, rather than capping their potential with a self imposed future constraint. Plymouth just doesn't seem able or want to aim to be the best it can be.
I'm all for incrementalism, but not when the next increment/level of capacity growth is cost prohibitive, is bad value for money and will look completely shit.

Exactly, even if you could extend the horseshoe, which I don't think for one minute that you can, the showpiece, the centrepiece of the development is the GRANDSTAND! With this mini stand we will be emulating Exeter City not the chiefs it's no wonder that Tis is in favour of the clusterfuck. The other thing is that if we could have had the MAGNIFICENT TWO TIERED STAND for a couple of million more then why not? And please dont remind me about Porkies old mans view!   I don't think that there are many fans that would object to the club pitching in somewhat to get what we want and need but the Brent way is be grateful for what you get even though he isn't paying for it himself, the argument that he is paying for it is the worst one that I've ever heard, it's not true at all, the Nandoes, dentist, school and retail units are paying for it and ultimately the fans, Brent just takes, takes land, takes freeholds and ultimately takes the profit that should be going to the club. It's his club when it suits him, when they want the staff paid its our feckin club. Bet I've paid more to the staff than that cnut has.

Tringreen wrote:

Clubs of a similar size catchment wise have inspired their potential fanbases.

Hull, Swansea, Cardiff, Reading, Brighton etc etc. to name a few recently.

Look guys, FFS get a grip, you could easily add Bolton to that list but you would then also have to slip Wigan, Huddersfield and Middlesboro in there, all of these clubs except the Jacks were subject to massive cash infusions from benevolent Brit owners or nutbag foreigners and none of them would be a nailed on 'cert' to be in the Premiership next season. Neither their grounds nor the numerical level of their support got them into the big league, it was cash and cash alone, mated of course to a bit of luck with a manager or three and the odd good buy on the player front.

You do not have a moneybagged numpty to chuck money at you ergo you will not be emulating all but the Udders and Brighton who have had a recent excursion to the big league, it ain't about having a massive ground full of empty green plastic seats, it is about applying the correct structure, Swansea should be your target, their ground isn't much bigger than the Gnome will be with the Diddy Stand, their support similar in many ways and they didn't pack out the Liberty until they made the Prem. They had the great good luck to have their ground built for nowt, like you, they built slowly without chucking huge amounts about which is certainly the most likely MO Brent will adopt, which leads me to the obvious question:-

WTF are you still whining about?

You are starting to get the basics right both on and off the field, stop bitching because you haven't got a Tony Bloom to chuck a hundred million at you, Brent is doing a steady job when you deserved to be put into liquidation after you sucked up to the likes of Ridsdale, Reid, Stapleton et al, ffs show a bit of class, a little humility wouldn't be totally out of place either.

Lord Tisdale wrote:

Tringreen wrote:

Clubs of a similar size catchment wise have inspired their potential fanbases.

Hull, Swansea, Cardiff, Reading, Brighton etc etc. to name a few recently.

Look guys, FFS get a grip, you could easily add Bolton to that list but you would then also have to slip Wigan, Huddersfield and Middlesboro in there, all of these clubs except the Jacks were subject to massive cash infusions from benevolent Brit owners or nutbag foreigners and none of them would be a nailed on 'cert' to be in the Premiership next season. Neither their grounds nor the numerical level of their support got them into the big league, it was cash and cash alone, mated of course to a bit of luck with a manager or three and the odd good buy on the player front.

You do not have a moneybagged numpty to chuck money at you ergo you will not be emulating all but the Udders and Brighton who have had a recent excursion to the big league, it ain't about having a massive ground full of empty green plastic seats, it is about applying the correct structure, Swansea should be your target, their ground isn't much bigger than the Gnome will be with the Diddy Stand, their support similar in many ways and they didn't pack out the Liberty until they made the Prem. They had the great good luck to have their ground built for nowt, like you, they built slowly without chucking huge amounts about which is certainly the most likely MO Brent will adopt, which leads me to the obvious question:-

WTF are you still whining about?

You are starting to get the basics right both on and off the field, stop bitching because you haven't got a Tony Bloom to chuck a hundred million at you, Brent is doing a steady job when you deserved to be put into liquidation after you sucked up to the likes of Ridsdale, Reid, Stapleton et al, ffs show a bit of class, a little humility wouldn't be totally out of place either.

It's not as easy for us to demonstrate that particular characteristic as it is for you.