Man United - End of an era?

Lord Tisdale wrote:

ejh wrote:

Mancini has won 14 trophies and is younger than David Moyes. How many trophies have you and David Moyes won between you?.

Uh duh!

I have won exactly as many major European titles as Mancini has as a manger.

ps. I think Moyes is a donkey as well, this is clearly demonstrated by the improvement in Everton and the total lack of Martinez constantly bitching about a lack of money. The sooner all these dour Scots wankers are replaced the better I shall be pleased.

Do domestic league titles and domestic cups therefore mean nothing to you? You know, the bread and butter of every club's season - the competition Chelsea, Man City and Arsenal are fiercely fighting for every minute of every game for.

Bloody hell, I bet you think Steven Gerrard has enjoyed as much success as Cristiano Ronaldo - "only one Champions League winners medal each, lol". "I read the Sun and watch Sky, and the UEFA Champions League is like, totally important now. Forget that these products are designed to sell each other, and forget that a woeful team like Chelsea can finish 6th (behind Newcastle and Spurs) and yet in the same season, win the Champions League with 10 men and parking the bus several times before scoring on the counter - consider me BRAINWASHED."

Brian Clough famously once said that a manager's priority is 'The Football League. Always has been and always will be. I would gladly go out of the European Cup, the FA Cup and the Football League cup if you could guarantee me winning the Football League. Because that is the one that you have to have every aspect of football management about you to win it. You've got to have endurance, you have got to have talent, you've got to be a little bit daft, you've got to have strength, psychology; you name it, and of course you've got to have very good players. But it's a real endurance battle over 9 or 10 months."

And with your Rupert Murdoch 'Champions League is the pinnacle' attitude you have just completely dismissed Mancini's achievements - his 3 consecutive Italian titles, his 4 Italian FA Cups, his English Premier League winners medal, his English FA Cup, and several charity shields. But apparently he is no Roberto Di Matteo in football management. Or even David Moyes. Let's see him take an Everton team and finish 5th before agree the bloke can manage big football teams at the top level.

To quote Clough from 25/30 years ago is a bit of a nonsense. That was then, this is now. It is a multi mini league now, not a one club, one country, knock out cup competition. In terms of prestige, winning the European Champions League must be the pinnacle of a players career. Only winning the World Cup would top it. You simply cannot claim to be the top team around unless you beat the best league teams from Germany, Spain and Italy. It's why Man Utd can't lay claim to be the best, even though they're our league champions, when everyone knows that they will not, and do not, beat Barcelona, Real Madrid etc.

Rollo Tomasi wrote:

To quote Clough from 25/30 years ago is a bit of a nonsense. That was then, this is now. It is a multi mini league now, not a one club, one country, knock out cup competition. In terms of prestige, winning the European Champions League must be the pinnacle of a players career. Only winning the World Cup would top it. You simply cannot claim to be the top team around unless you beat the best league teams from Germany, Spain and Italy. It's why Man Utd can't lay claim to be the best, even though they're our league champions, when everyone knows that they will not, and do not, beat Barcelona, Real Madrid etc.

Spot on again Rollo, under Mancini Citeh couldn't beat an oeuff in Europe, under the Pelican they win at Bayern, QED, Mancini is a clutz, Mancini, two League cup semis, blew both, Pelican, one go, 9-0.

Rollo Tomasi wrote:

To quote Clough from 25/30 years ago is a bit of a nonsense. That was then, this is now. It is a multi mini league now, not a one club, one country, knock out cup competition. In terms of prestige, winning the European Champions League must be the pinnacle of a players career. Only winning the World Cup would top it. You simply cannot claim to be the top team around unless you beat the best league teams from Germany, Spain and Italy. It's why Man Utd can't lay claim to be the best, even though they're our league champions, when everyone knows that they will not, and do not, beat Barcelona, Real Madrid etc.

Chelsea won the CL defending for their lives in the same season they finished 6th. With the West Brom manager no less.

Best team in Europe, give me a break. Not even one of the best five teams in England

A rookie can win you a Champions League but a rookie can't get close to winning the domestic league - what does that tell you about where the challenge lies?

European glory used to be what it ought to be - champions playing champions, the best team prevailing. Instead it is just a knockout tournament of European elite clubs slowly turning into a league as more money gets thrown at it. Bayern Munich and Barca win their domestic leagues with brilliant teams - so when they win the CL  it means something. But in reality so many poor teams get to finals and win it that any concept of it being a true indicator of the best team in Europe is truly laughable. When English fans squabble about what the priority is, or the better achievement, it just sounds pathetic.

When you do as Man Utd did and win the treble, that shows you have a good team. When you get flukey as hell like Liverpool and Chelsea finishing outside the top 4, it looks and is ridiculous - the likes of Smicer and Djimi Traore supposedly now the best Champions in Europe, and yet finish 5th behind Everton.

Where does it say that a team that wins the Champions League must win their domestic league. Or what? It doesn't count! And I would turn your argument around and say it's very difficult to win the Champions league when you have to play in the domestic league. Maybe that's why Chelsea finished sixth. As for the Man Utd treble bit, you have a short memory. They were completely outplayed by Bayern Munich and nicked it in the last five minutes from two corners.

If Sunderland knock United out tonight I can see some proper dissent emanating from the fans - after all it's a long way from Hampshire Sussex Kent etc. to Old Trafford mid-week to see your team get beat.

Rollo Tomasi wrote:

Where does it say that a team that wins the Champions League must win their domestic league. Or what? It doesn't count! And I would turn your argument around and say it's very difficult to win the Champions league when you have to play in the domestic league. Maybe that's why Chelsea finished sixth. As for the Man Utd treble bit, you have a short memory. They were completely outplayed by Bayern Munich  and nicked it in the last five minutes from two corners.

Let me just ask you which is the better team.

2005
----------------- Dudek

Finnan - Carragher - Hyypia - Traore

Luis Garcia - Alonso - Gerrard - John Arne Riise

--------------------Kewell ----------------
--------------Baros -------------------------


OR

2008
----------------- Reina

Arbeloa - Carragher - Skrtel - Riise

-------- Mascherano - Alonso --------

Kuyt --------- Gerrard -------- Benayoun

------------- Torres -------------



One of those teams won the Champions League and finished 5th in the league. The other lost in the semi final of the CL and came second in the league, within touching distance of the title.

No Liverpool fan will tell you their 2005 team was a great team, and they had no illusions that they were the best team in Europe. But in 2008 with Torres and Gerrard at the height of their careers, they were all kind of dangerous and genuinely one of the best teams in Europe.

You just have to take the Champions League for what it is. A fascinating and entertaining tournament, but with ridiculous dynamics. Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Man United and no doubt soon enough Man City have all been to the final in the last 10 years. The away goals rule means that park the bus tactics are routinely employed to protect that quirky 1.5 goal advantage. You have head to heads ruined by referees, such as Chelsea steaming Barca at Stamford Bridge and the ref waving off three strong penalty claims, Or Van Persie being sent off for Arsenal at the Nou Camp for 'kicking the ball away', or Nani being sent off v Real Madrid for trying to control a long ball.  And there you have it - Sir Alex Ferguson's 'European campaign' ended - not tactically outthought, not outplayed, but being made to play 40 mins with no striker - because he now has to play left wing to cover the huge void on the flank.

I will say what I said before - the best team in Europe will never be considered the best if it doesn't win the CL at the same time as taking care of its domestic affairs. Barca do it, Bayern Munich do it, Mourinho's Inter could do it, and Fergie's Man Utd could do it  - in those instances, the best team in Europe won the Champions League. In those instances, winning the Champions League can be a classy achievement. And Pellegrini's dominant Manchester City side could do exactly that - win the league and win the Champions League, with if they achieve it, the best team in Europe.

But what I contest from what has been written in this thread:
1) Mancini is a poor manager because he couldn't win the Champions League. Absolute nonsense. He took a side full of players unaccustomed to playing in Europe and got the record number of points in the group stages that a team has failed to qualify with. Then he would have had the run the gauntlet of poor refereeing decisions, extremely fortunate 'away goals' and all the other hazards to win it. And he had what, two attempts at it with the City side? Compared with how many attempts by Mourinho, and Ferguson, and Wenger?
2) Pellegrini is a much better manager. Let's just overlook the signings of Negredo (26 goals and counting), Jesus Navas, Fernandinho, Demechelis etc. It is ignorant to pretend that Manchester City didn't throw a lot of money at this new side to establish dominance, backing Mancini didn't have the previous season.
3) Winning the Champions League is a tougher challenge, or a more worthy achievement than winning the Premier League. Teams like Liverpool and Arsenal can get to the finals of the Champions League and win it. Teams like Liverpool and Arsenal haven't won the league title for well over 10 years.
4) The best team in Europe win the Champions League. In many cases, yes. However very frequently, no. You are better off checking their league position to see if they were the best team in Europe that season. There is a direct correlation between the very dominant teams (AC Milan - mid 2000s, Inter late 2000s, Barcelona 2008 - 2012, Bayern Munich 2012 - present) winning both their league, domestic cups and the CL in a given period, rather than just winning in Europe and best known as the best.

If David Moyes for example tries to 'focus on Europe' it will be a waste of time. Man Utd have been utterly shite this season but there is a genuine chance they can fluke their way to European glory.

Rollo Tomasi wrote:

Where does it say that a team that wins the Champions League must win their domestic league. Or what? It doesn't count! And I would turn your argument around and say it's very difficult to win the Champions league when you have to play in the domestic league. Maybe that's why Chelsea finished sixth. As for the Man Utd treble bit, you have a short memory. They were completely outplayed by Bayern Munich  and nicked it in the last five minutes from two corners.

It is the sign of a truly dominant side. All of the best teams have to do it. Because the league is uncompromising and unforgiving - as Clough said - the best team, and the best manager always wins the league. The table doesn't lie.

In Europe, Champions League winners medals only mean something when the top clubs have taken of domestic business.

Too many ordinary teams are getting to Champions League finals and beyond because of the media, tv interests and advertising pressures in making the tournament accessible to any team with decent players, and establishing it as a bigger priority than domestic football.

Only the foolish join in with the illusion, presumably with a £39.99 a month Sky subscription to watch it on.

I can't think of a great side that has won the Champions League without winning their league, and being regarded as the best in Europe.

So Moyes is going to blow nearly £40m on Juan Mata to try and save some grace this season. Going to need more than him David no matter how good he is the team is shit.

Lord Tisdale wrote:

Rollo Tomasi wrote:

To quote Clough from 25/30 years ago is a bit of a nonsense. That was then, this is now. It is a multi mini league now, not a one club, one country, knock out cup competition. In terms of prestige, winning the European Champions League must be the pinnacle of a players career. Only winning the World Cup would top it. You simply cannot claim to be the top team around unless you beat the best league teams from Germany, Spain and Italy. It's why Man Utd can't lay claim to be the best, even though they're our league champions, when everyone knows that they will not, and do not, beat Barcelona, Real Madrid etc.

Spot on again Rollo, under Mancini Citeh couldn't beat an oeuff in Europe, under the Pelican they win at Bayern, QED, Mancini is a clutz, Mancini, two League cup semis, blew both, Pelican, one go, 9-0.

In his 25 years Fergie won 3 European trophies, I suppose he is shit as well  

Personally Im a believer that the European Cup was much easier to win than the Champions league is now. This is the route Liverpool took to win the European Cup in 1975-76:
1st round beat Crusaders of N Ireland
2nd round beat Trabsonspor or Turkey
Quarter Final beat St Etienne of France
Semi Final beat FC Zurich of Switzerland
Final beat Borussia Moenchengladbach of Germany
A total of 10 matches and apart from the final itself not a single game against a top line side or the champions of a strong league.
That run of fixtures wouldn't have put too much strain on their squad as they contested the league and FA Cup domestically. Compare that to the numerous games against some of the strongest teams in Europe it takes to win the Champions league these days. How many teams have retained the Champions league? None in all its history. In the old European cup days Madrid, Benfica, Milan, Liverpool, Ajax, Munich, Inter and even Forest won it on 2,3 and even 5 consecutive occasions which says a lot to me about the respective difficulty of winning the two competitions in their different formats.

swampy wrote:

Personally Im a believer that the European Cup was much easier to win than the Champions league is now. This is the route Liverpool took to win the European Cup in 1975-76:
1st round beat Crusaders of N Ireland
2nd round beat Trabsonspor or Turkey
Quarter Final beat St Etienne of France
Semi Final beat FC Zurich of Switzerland
Final beat Borussia Moenchengladbach of Germany
A total of 10 matches and apart from the final itself not a single game against a top line side or the champions of a strong league.
That run of fixtures wouldn't have put too much strain on their squad as they contested the league and FA Cup domestically. Compare that to the numerous games against some of the strongest teams in Europe it takes to win the Champions league these days. How many teams have retained the Champions league? None in all its history. In the old European cup days Madrid, Benfica, Milan, Liverpool, Ajax, Munich, Inter and even Forest won it on 2,3 and even 5 consecutive occasions which says a lot to me about the respective difficulty of winning the two competitions in their different formats.

Totally agree.   

Hugh Watt wrote:

In his 25 years Fergie won 3 European trophies, I suppose he is shit as well  

Living proof that whoever has the most cash will generally win, had the enormous boost of Beckham, Scholes, Giggs etc all coming through at the same time but was always able to add the most expensive players to that base and wasn't blown away when he foo'ed up, Veron, Djemba x2 and Taibi leap to mind, he just went out and spent more, a couple of inspired buys of course, Cantona and Keane, but a broken clock is right twice a day.

Boring, dull, big nosed, dour Sweaty, done a job but plenty of others could have done as well and better with all the advantages he had.

Of course having cash helps. But with cash come big name players and big egos which can divide dressing rooms. It takes a good manager to man manage multi millionaire young footballers well in the modern game. Dour and boring? You are joking. His teams always attacked and played to win games rather than defend and settle for draws. Beckam, Scholes, Giggs? Most successful big clubs throughout Europe have a nucleus of top home grown talent to go with their international imports but I grant you half a dozen of the same age is rare. Every manager in every league makes some bad buys. It isn't an exact science. Plenty of others, well a handful anyway might have matched his success but they would almost certainly have been fellow big name managers who invariably earned those jobs with success at lesser clubs. Fergie himself got the big job at Old Trafford because of the fantastic job he did at Aberdeen in Scotland. He earned those advantages and the right to play at the top table. To then go on and dominate the domestic game like he did he only gets my utmost admiration.

swampy wrote:

Dour and boring? You are joking. His teams always attacked and played to win games rather than defend and settle for draws.

I was of course talking about the man not the team, which, despite my intense dislike of the club as an institution and their wank stain plastic fans, I have always had a grudging respect for the way they have played the game.

Fair enough Tis. They have their plastics as you call them, it goes with being a global brand and as a result of saturation coverage of their games on the box but 43,000 Mancs go every week as well you know.

the away goals rule is pure bollocks

Its quite amuzing that utd fans thinks all their fortunes are going to change with the pending signing of Juan Mata. I hate to break it too them that they need more than him to change that squad around. Not just for this season but beyond.

De gea is a lucky git if Utd went out due to his error i think Moyes will be looking for a keeper asap much like fergie did to that other keeper at united who did the samething.

Man utd are oooot so they arent even guaranteed europa league next season now lol Juan Mata i hope has broad shoulders as he will be carrying that team if they make it there.

Ahahahahaha

              

Davidfriio4 wrote:

Ahahahahaha

Lets all have a disco.
David shut the door on your way out
Juan unpack your suitcase.
Utd have fecked it.

What does David moyes do after he gets to the capital one cup final?
switches off his x box and goes to bed.

swampy wrote:

but 43,000 Mancs go every week as well you know.

True, but we are talking about United not City.