Who exactly are the GTs?

punchdrunk wrote:

I dont object totally to the GT and i agree that they do serve a purpose, however there are a sinister clique of them that are unmistakably connected to the odious activities of the Windsor boys and that Deepthroat episode.
Anything that inhabits that sweaty marquee these days stinks of corruption im sad to say

Bit harsh there Punchy. There is no evidence that Gary and the others have ever played a part in the shenanigans we have witnessed. They are bound to mix closely with Newell, Webb, Hooper et al but that's not their fault. They have made the fansfest the central place to be for some. It's a shame that the venue they've created has been associated with a great deal of the muck, including Wozzer's meltdown, but a bit far to say they've been tainted.

Not my scene but not their fault.

Ok - once again - it is against football League rules for James Brent to pay owed monies to the non playing staff faster than the playing staff. The money raised by the GTs is paid to the non playing staff, not the players, by way of loans to the Club. This way the people who need the money most can get it. It also means that donated money all goes to the people who need it and not to the Revenue. The PAYE/NI element of the payment is paid by the club. The GT loans to the club are unsecured.

If the club goes into administration again I don't believe repayment of GT money will be top of our worry list - having a football club will. Don't forget at present loans coming into the club are larger than the monies going back to pay off the administration debt. In less than 4 years we will have a massive balloon payment on the admin debt - around £2million. This constant banging on about GT money is an irrelevancy - fans who want to go to Fansfests etc are voluntarily paying the money to enjoy themselves at events in full knowledge of where the cash is going.

I dont get the comparison of GTs with a Bank. The GTs are a group of fans selling tickets to events to raise money to help the staff who kept our club alive. They dont see themselves as anything else.

Who is the sinister clique of GTs? Gary? Mark? Billbob? Those are the guys behind the GTs and there isnt anything sinister about them. Yes the President has been into the marquee as has IJN and Lee Jameson, Wozzer, various Senior Greens, current Trust leadersand probably every other 'known' fan. There are the good, the bad, the ugly, the sinister and the ex-wife in there but the GTs are not sinister.

I used to spend loads of time with the people who spent their money in the marquee. Not one person in there ever asked for the figures on who has received what loans, who has been paid off, how much JB has repaid. They are happy with the work that the GTs do and plenty of staff have attested that they have received the money. It seems only on here that people constantly question the legitimacy of the GTs work.

I have every sympathy with the view that JB should be paying the staff. But he isn't and all the GTs are doing is to get money to the staff quicker than JB intends to. There are much, much bigger worries surrounding our football club.

Thank you Damon and spot on.

Not having met you I did play spot the ex wife at the NYE Party after your recent post...

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

Ok - once again - it is against football League rules for James Brent to pay owed monies to the non playing staff faster than the playing staff. The money raised by the GTs is paid to the non playing staff, not the players, by way of loans to the Club. This way the people who need the money most can get it. It also means that donated money all goes to the people who need it and not to the Revenue. The PAYE/NI element of the payment is paid by the club. The GT loans to the club are unsecured.

If the club goes into administration again I don't believe repayment of GT money will be top of our worry list - having a football club will. Don't forget at present loans coming into the club are larger than the monies going back to pay off the administration debt. In less than 4 years we will have a massive balloon payment on the admin debt - around £2million. This constant banging on about GT money is an irrelevancy - fans who want to go to Fansfests etc are voluntarily paying the money to enjoy themselves at events in full knowledge of where the cash is going.

I dont get the comparison of GTs with a Bank. The GTs are a group of fans selling tickets to events to raise money to help the staff who kept our club alive. They dont see themselves as anything else.

Who is the sinister clique of GTs? Gary? Mark? Billbob? Those are the guys behind the GTs and there isnt anything sinister about them. Yes the President has been into the marquee as has IJN and Lee Jameson, Wozzer, various Senior Greens, current Trust leadersand probably every other 'known' fan. There are the good, the bad, the ugly, the sinister and the ex-wife in there but the GTs are not sinister.

I used to spend loads of time with the people who spent their money in the marquee. Not one person in there ever asked for the figures on who has received what loans, who has been paid off, how much JB has repaid. They are happy with the work that the GTs do and plenty of staff have attested that they have received the money. It seems only on here that people constantly question the legitimacy of the GTs work.

I have every sympathy with the view that JB should be paying the staff. But he isn't and all the GTs are doing is to get money to the staff quicker than JB intends to. There are much, much bigger worries surrounding our football club.

Sorry Damon but my frazzled brain is letting me down at the moment- i've probably seen the answer to this question before but what is the £2m "balloon debt" that you refer to?

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

Ok - once again - it is against football League rules for James Brent to pay owed monies to the non playing staff faster than the playing staff. The money raised by the GTs is paid to the non playing staff, not the players, by way of loans to the Club. This way the people who need the money most can get it. It also means that donated money all goes to the people who need it and not to the Revenue. The PAYE/NI element of the payment is paid by the club. The GT loans to the club are unsecured.

Thank you Damon. Only read 2 paragraphs for now and already so many questions so I'll keep it simple.

Why do fans monies to help the hardworking non-playing staff who went unpaid have to go through the club and its FL restrictions, surely there's another way with the clubs help/consent?

When JB took over the club and in order to obtain the 'Golden Share' he had to agree to pay the Football Creditor debt and the unpaid wages within 5 years. The amounts agreed with the Football League to be repaid left a residual amount of £2 million to be paid at the end of the five year period.

Greenskin wrote:

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

Ok - once again - it is against football League rules for James Brent to pay owed monies to the non playing staff faster than the playing staff. The money raised by the GTs is paid to the non playing staff, not the players, by way of loans to the Club. This way the people who need the money most can get it. It also means that donated money all goes to the people who need it and not to the Revenue. The PAYE/NI element of the payment is paid by the club. The GT loans to the club are unsecured.

If the club goes into administration again I don't believe repayment of GT money will be top of our worry list - having a football club will. Don't forget at present loans coming into the club are larger than the monies going back to pay off the administration debt. In less than 4 years we will have a massive balloon payment on the admin debt - around £2million. This constant banging on about GT money is an irrelevancy - fans who want to go to Fansfests etc are voluntarily paying the money to enjoy themselves at events in full knowledge of where the cash is going.

I dont get the comparison of GTs with a Bank. The GTs are a group of fans selling tickets to events to raise money to help the staff who kept our club alive. They dont see themselves as anything else.

Who is the sinister clique of GTs? Gary? Mark? Billbob? Those are the guys behind the GTs and there isnt anything sinister about them. Yes the President has been into the marquee as has IJN and Lee Jameson, Wozzer, various Senior Greens, current Trust leadersand probably every other 'known' fan. There are the good, the bad, the ugly, the sinister and the ex-wife in there but the GTs are not sinister.

I used to spend loads of time with the people who spent their money in the marquee. Not one person in there ever asked for the figures on who has received what loans, who has been paid off, how much JB has repaid. They are happy with the work that the GTs do and plenty of staff have attested that they have received the money. It seems only on here that people constantly question the legitimacy of the GTs work.

I have every sympathy with the view that JB should be paying the staff. But he isn't and all the GTs are doing is to get money to the staff quicker than JB intends to. There are much, much bigger worries surrounding our football club.

Sorry Damon but my frazzled brain is letting me down at the moment- i've probably seen the answer to this question before but what is the £2m "balloon debt" that you refer to?

That'll be the circa 48% debt for the FL creditors the club will have outstanding after 5 years which is to be paid in full.

I say 48% based on 17% up front and 7% per annum over 5 years.

Coxside_Green wrote:

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

Ok - once again - it is against football League rules for James Brent to pay owed monies to the non playing staff faster than the playing staff. The money raised by the GTs is paid to the non playing staff, not the players, by way of loans to the Club. This way the people who need the money most can get it. It also means that donated money all goes to the people who need it and not to the Revenue. The PAYE/NI element of the payment is paid by the club. The GT loans to the club are unsecured.

Thank you Damon. Only read 2 paragraphs for now and already so many questions so I'll keep it simple.

Why do fans monies to help the hardworking non-playing staff who went unpaid have to go through the club and its FL restrictions, surely there's another way with the clubs help/consent?

If the GTs pay the staff directly then the GTs are liable to the Revenue for the PAYE and NI on those back wages. Everyone agreed that the last thing they wanted was for the GTs to have to raise money to pay the Revenue. By lending the money to the Club to accelerate the pay the Club are then responsible for the PAYE/NI on the back wages.

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

When JB took over the club and in order to obtain the 'Golden Share' he had to agree to pay the Football Creditor debt and the unpaid wages within 5 years. The amounts agreed with the Football League to be repaid left a residual amount of £2 million to be paid at the end of the five year period.

Thanks,i thought it was probably something to do with that,just can't recall it being referred to as a balloon debt before.Every day's a school day.

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

Coxside_Green wrote:

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

Ok - once again - it is against football League rules for James Brent to pay owed monies to the non playing staff faster than the playing staff. The money raised by the GTs is paid to the non playing staff, not the players, by way of loans to the Club. This way the people who need the money most can get it. It also means that donated money all goes to the people who need it and not to the Revenue. The PAYE/NI element of the payment is paid by the club. The GT loans to the club are unsecured.

Thank you Damon. Only read 2 paragraphs for now and already so many questions so I'll keep it simple.

Why do fans monies to help the hardworking non-playing staff who went unpaid have to go through the club and its FL restrictions, surely there's another way with the clubs help/consent?

If the GTs pay the staff directly then the GTs are liable to the Revenue for the PAYE and NI on those back wages. Everyone agreed that the last thing they wanted was for the GTs to have to raise money to pay the Revenue. By lending the money to the Club to accelerate the pay the Club are then responsible for the PAYE/NI on the back wages.

Meh.

So the GTs have to pay Revenues, to be repaid by the club. It's fishy to say the least when the current option includes paying Steve Maclean et al and associated Revenues at the same rate.

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

Ok - once again - it is against football League rules for James Brent to pay owed monies to the non playing staff faster than the playing staff. The money raised by the GTs is paid to the non playing staff, not the players, by way of loans to the Club. This way the people who need the money most can get it. It also means that donated money all goes to the people who need it and not to the Revenue. The PAYE/NI element of the payment is paid by the club. The GT loans to the club are unsecured.

It's a pity you have to start with 'once again'. As with most things Argo, it's shrouded with mystery and to my knowledge, you've previously answered very little with regard to GTs. 'once again' is very much in line with Webby's 'I've already answered elsewhere, you'll just have to search the many topics where I might've replied off-topic'. At least this thread is a relevant place. I've already asked a relevant question which in my mind I never received a relevant reply, c'est la vie.

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

If the club goes into administration again I don't believe repayment of GT money will be top of our worry list - having a football club will. Don't forget at present loans coming into the club are larger than the monies going back to pay off the administration debt. In less than 4 years we will have a massive balloon payment on the admin debt - around £2million. This constant banging on about GT money is an irrelevancy - fans who want to go to Fansfests etc are voluntarily paying the money to enjoy themselves at events in full knowledge of where the cash is going.

If fans have full knowledge of where the cash is going, why no auction to accelerate Steve Maclean's (or any other under-achieving player for that matter) owed wages? Football fans are well known for being stupid. I don't believe those at the fanfests to be any different.

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

I dont get the comparison of GTs with a Bank. The GTs are a group of fans selling tickets to events to raise money to help the staff who kept our club alive. They dont see themselves as anything else.

If they're just a group of fans trying to help staff, hopefully they'll listen to others or at least address concerns?

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

Who is the sinister clique of GTs? Gary? Mark? Billbob? Those are the guys behind the GTs and there isnt anything sinister about them. Yes the President has been into the marquee as has IJN and Lee Jameson, Wozzer, various Senior Greens, current Trust leadersand probably every other 'known' fan. There are the good, the bad, the ugly, the sinister and the ex-wife in there but the GTs are not sinister..

Whilst I wouldn't go as far as to call these people sinister, most of us just don't know them. We're Argo fans who have been hurt pretty badly, especially by the REAL names and people mentioned here.

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

I used to spend loads of time with the people who spent their money in the marquee. Not one person in there ever asked for the figures on who has received what loans, who has been paid off, how much JB has repaid. They are happy with the work that the GTs do and plenty of staff have attested that they have received the money. It seems only on here that people constantly question the legitimacy of the GTs work...

Of course they're happy, they believe their money is paying up owed wages to the non-playing staff. We all know people are paying good money for auctioned goods, how about a month of accelerating ex-players monies?

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

I have every sympathy with the view that JB should be paying the staff. But he isn't and all the GTs are doing is to get money to the staff quicker than JB intends to. There are much, much bigger worries surrounding our football club.

To be fair the GTs probably are the least of our worries right now. What a desperate club we support!

I've debated this a lot of times and don't fancy wading too far in again but I'd just add this:

The work of the GTs has massively reduced the "baloon debt" that the club has to face at the end of the 5 year agreement. Without this GT work in lowering that amount, then the club would have £2 million to pay in a very short space of time and would essentially be up the creek without a paddle no? This way seeing as the repayments to the GTs are less pressing and urgent then it buys us more time?

Don't get me wrong, the main reason that it's good that the GTs are doing this is to help the staff who are hard-up as a result of working unpaid for so long. However, it's hard to deny that there's also a massive pragmatic element as well in that it saves the club from paying such a large amount in 2016 when the 5 year agreement comes to an end. Without the GTs, our football budget spending in these 5 years leading up to the balloon payment would have been a lot less than it has been/will be in reality without the GTs help. This way it doesn't mean we have such pressing debt leading up to the Autumn 2016 cut off point and we can pay back the debt to the GTs over a much more manageable timeframe than it would otherwise be without the help of the GTs. And yes I agree more should have been paid straight up upon the purchasing of the club etc....but it isn't and the GTs can't change that so this is the best they can do for imho both the on pitch side of the club and most importantly the staff themselves.

This is all very well Sam if you know and trust exactly who the GTs are. We have a history of McCauleys, Stapletons and Todds.

The 'Balloon' payment is of course a concern in 4 years time. If we default payment to the FL they'll probably impose sanctions, dock points etc. In our defence I don't think there's any precedent so we could possibly successfully appeal any such action. It now looks likely this wont happen.

Instead we'll owe an unknown group of 'fans' (Stapleton was once a fan) the same amount. Should relations sour they wont be docking us points. That said, all loans being unsecured is somewhat a relief, which only adds to more conspiracies and speculation.

I'm just a fan, I'd love to see the hard working unpaid non-playing staff paid off sooner, we all would. It just doesn't sit right the only way I can help is by accelerating others (playing staff) payments while unknown supporters (GTs) are building a position of power.

While I'm here, I will also echo they do a fantastic job with their pre-match entertainment. Not my cup of tea but I can see why it sells out.

As has been said before, the GTs refused "a position of power" when offered one by the club.

If you swap "club" with "James Brent's development business" in this thread in makes things look a little different.

If people wish to donate money then that's their choice, but it may prove to be that the word "loan" is a little misguiding, I hope that it isn't.

knecht wrote:

As has been said before, the GTs refused "a position of power" when offered one by the club.

Assuming this was offered by someone in a position to do so, then this would have been Brent?

Are there any meat on the bones of what that position was? Or was it just a token PASB place?

A token PASB place.

Brent hand picking the PASB, surely not!

GreenSam wrote:

The work of the GTs has massively reduced the "baloon debt" that the club has to face at the end of the 5 year agreement

"massively reduced" ?

Does a definitive figure appear anywhere ?

ps. Not grinding an axe, just interested in the process.

That's how the PASB was set up. I can't remember the detail but there were so m=any seats for the fans' groups around the country, so many for the Trust, so many for the season ticket holdersmembers, so many for the GTs. To their credit, the GTs said 'no thank you'.

It may not be much of a 'position of power' but I'm not sure what else would qualify as such.

I wasn't having a poke at the GT's Knecht and it wasn't my intention to have a pop at them at all on this thread because their hearts really do seem to be in the right place. I just think they are being a little naive, time will tell.


Like LT I'm also keen to know how Sam is aware that the balloon debt has been massively reduced?

im also interested in 'massively reduced' figure - i suspect 300k out of £2m.
think green sams stats may let him down on this occassion...........


did the club receive the correct value for the land it sold to JB's pension fund?

Trust in brent todd gardner stapes nobber spider cockney green, now the GT's when it comes to argyle and super fans, history tells me to trust no one.

Exactly ... sneaky snidey cliquey Janner mafia groups are all the rage at HP these days..apparently

knecht wrote:

As has been said before, the GTs refused "a position of power" when offered one by the club.

So did Nooly.