Plymouth to Tavistock Railway - The Drake Line

We are pleased to report that, having been in consultation with the Devon & Cornwall Rail Partnership, we had a very positive email from a member of Devon County Council stressing that the plan to reopen our railway has been put forward to central government and, having seen the proposal, we can say that a very clearly expressed and well-researched plan has been put forward. We can also state that DCC is now in regular consultation with the Rail Minister on the subject. Moreover, apart from the submission for government funding for the reinstatement of Bere Alston to Tavistock, there is an aspiration to reopen the complete link up to the existing line at Okehampton, which is also coming into the plan. The Govt recently offered funding for viable rail reinstatement ideas and DCC has submitted the complete link idea for further consideration.

how do you reckon till the woke gang demand that name taken away?

Angry. You know that time when you went for that job "Dark Room Light Bulb"? You know when they said you didn't get the job? You are genuinely that dim.

What's woke? Explain it in words please.

Angry wrote:

how do you reckon till the woke gang demand that name taken away?

Oh don't worry. Someone who finds offence in the name will be along shortly.

Tgwu wrote:

We are pleased to report that, having been in consultation with the Devon & Cornwall Rail Partnership, we had a very positive email from a member of Devon County Council stressing that the plan to reopen our railway has been put forward to central government and, having seen the proposal, we can say that a very clearly expressed and well-researched plan has been put forward. We can also state that DCC is now in regular consultation with the Rail Minister on the subject. Moreover, apart from the submission for government funding for the reinstatement of Bere Alston to Tavistock, there is an aspiration to reopen the complete link up to the existing line at Okehampton, which is also coming into the plan. The Govt recently offered funding for viable rail reinstatement ideas and DCC has submitted the complete link idea for further consideration.

Thought this had all been agreed years ago, are Bellway homes still involved?

I think Tavi-Bere Alston is well warranted, not sure about joining up to Okehampton though, I’ve a lot of family history with that line so I’m a bit nostalgic for it, however with the investment going into Dawlish Sea Wall I cant see any justification for it.
I’ve always been mystified why the old Teign Valley Line wasn’t considered as the deviation route, shorter, less engineering and the only major engineering issue would be 2 tunnels to refurbish

green_fiend wrote:

What's woke? Explain it in words please.

you

Graiser wrote:

Tgwu wrote:

We are pleased to report that, having been in consultation with the Devon & Cornwall Rail Partnership, we had a very positive email from a member of Devon County Council stressing that the plan to reopen our railway has been put forward to central government and, having seen the proposal, we can say that a very clearly expressed and well-researched plan has been put forward. We can also state that DCC is now in regular consultation with the Rail Minister on the subject. Moreover, apart from the submission for government funding for the reinstatement of Bere Alston to Tavistock, there is an aspiration to reopen the complete link up to the existing line at Okehampton, which is also coming into the plan. The Govt recently offered funding for viable rail reinstatement ideas and DCC has submitted the complete link idea for further consideration.

Thought this had all been agreed years ago, are Bellway homes still involved?

I think Tavi-Bere Alston is well warranted, not sure about joining up to Okehampton though, I’ve a lot of family history with that line so I’m a bit nostalgic for it, however with the investment going into Dawlish Sea Wall I cant see any justification for it.
I’ve always been mystified why the old Teign Valley Line wasn’t considered as the deviation route, shorter, less engineering and the only major engineering issue would be 2 tunnels to refurbish

Bovis homes are building 800 houses in two phases at Monksmead, when they were given permission it was on condition that they reinstated the railway to Bere Alston ( to be fair you probably know all this) but they managed to get a condition that they have to build over four hundred and fifty houses to trigger the clause so are doing smaller batches. Fookin stinks. Anyway I disagree about Okehampton and one major reason they will do it is because they have ruled building will be restricted unless the A386 is upgraded and that will take years to even talk about it whilst the feasibility studies have been done. Also the line would be well used Connecting West Devon to Plymouth and ExeterId certainly use it loads. I see it as a much needed stand alone project rather than just a back up to Dawlish.

My old man used to use the old line when he was in the navy and visited my mum on leave.

Earwegoagain wrote:

Graiser wrote:

Tgwu wrote:

We are pleased to report that, having been in consultation with the Devon & Cornwall Rail Partnership, we had a very positive email from a member of Devon County Council stressing that the plan to reopen our railway has been put forward to central government and, having seen the proposal, we can say that a very clearly expressed and well-researched plan has been put forward. We can also state that DCC is now in regular consultation with the Rail Minister on the subject. Moreover, apart from the submission for government funding for the reinstatement of Bere Alston to Tavistock, there is an aspiration to reopen the complete link up to the existing line at Okehampton, which is also coming into the plan. The Govt recently offered funding for viable rail reinstatement ideas and DCC has submitted the complete link idea for further consideration.

Thought this had all been agreed years ago, are Bellway homes still involved?

I think Tavi-Bere Alston is well warranted, not sure about joining up to Okehampton though, I’ve a lot of family history with that line so I’m a bit nostalgic for it, however with the investment going into Dawlish Sea Wall I cant see any justification for it.
I’ve always been mystified why the old Teign Valley Line wasn’t considered as the deviation route, shorter, less engineering and the only major engineering issue would be 2 tunnels to refurbish

Bovis homes are building 800 houses in two phases at Monksmead, when they were given permission it was on condition that they reinstated the railway to Bere Alston ( to be fair you probably know all this) but they managed to get a condition that they have to build over four hundred and fifty houses to trigger the clause so are doing smaller batches. Fookin stinks. Anyway I disagree about Okehampton and one major reason they will do it is because they have ruled building will be restricted unless the A386 is upgraded and that will take years to even talk about it whilst the feasibility studies have been done. Also the line would be well used Connecting West Devon to Plymouth and ExeterId certainly use it loads. I see it as a much needed stand alone project rather than just a back up to Dawlish.

I wouldn’t be against joining up with Okehampton particularly how that town has expanded over the years, I just can’t see it happening.
I’ve got a lot of memories of that route, my Uncle was a guard for 47 years until redundancy and he lived in an old railway house above the Station, my mother worked in the buffet during the war but the old girl got fed up with that and joined the local track gang and from 1985 I was in charge of the whole route from Exeter to Meldon in BR day’s.
Meldon Viaduct was part of the excuse used to close the line, not sure if that was correct as there used to be some heavy locos travelling across that Viaduct and we renewed all the timbers supporting the old up line in about 1982 but it was then a single line and just used for Quarry shunting.

I worked in Meldon quarry approx 1986 when we were supplying hardcore for the A30 bypass.

Earwegoagain wrote:

I worked in Meldon quarry approx 1986 when we were supplying hardcore for the A30 bypass.

Quite likely our paths crossed ears, my contact there was a chap called Hollingshead or something like that.

The only way the line would ever get half way to becoming financially viable would be if it was reinstated in full between Bere Alston and Meldon. I did some consultancy work with some of the stakeholders and the cost ratios that went back to the stakeholders for the Bere Alston to Tavistock reinstatement were pretty poor.

Apart from the £100+million cost there was also substantial infrastructure and operational issues for the existing route between St Budeaux and Bere Alston.
Should the line open, then because of gauging and pathing issues, Calstock and Gunnislake would lose their existing direct services to Plymouth and Exeter and be replaced by a shuttle utilizing the disused platform at Bere Alston. Back to the point about the entire route again. Should the entire route be reinstated then thet would remedy the pathing and gauging issues between St Budeaux and Bere Alston as the line would to be route cleared for all current rolling stock that currently uses the mainline. The viaduct at Ernesettle is only route cleared for a two coach DMU currently and the current pathing limitations couldn't accommodate both individual Gunnislake and Tavistock services alongside each other. The MOD still also own a number of paths between Ernesettle sidings and St Budeaux Jcn, though they are very rarely used Network Rail still must hold these paths open.

That's the technical and legal jargon out the way and now on to my own view.
Personally I'd like to see it but could the Tavistock-Plymouth stretch on it's own ever be financially viable? Firstly it would struggle to compete with the bus services which are every 10 to 15 mins, the train at very best would have a frequency of every 90 minutes (which is the current maximum frequency on the line) Another factor is a lot of the employment centres a lot of commuters from Tavistock commute to are in the Derriford corridor which the bus alread serves direct so a infrequent train service isn't going to be a viable alternative for a lot of commuters. It's main patronage will come from people wanting to make onward rail connections from Plymouth and will be mostly limited to that.

PAFCJosh wrote:

The only way the line would ever get half way to becoming financially viable would be if it was reinstated in full between Bere Alston and Meldon. I did some consultancy work with some of the stakeholders and the cost ratios that went back to the stakeholders for the Bere Alston to Tavistock reinstatement were pretty poor.

Apart from the £100+million cost there was also substantial infrastructure and operational issues for the existing route between St Budeaux and Bere Alston.
Should the line open, then because of gauging and pathing issues, Calstock and Gunnislake would lose their existing direct services to Plymouth and Exeter and be replaced by a shuttle utilizing the disused platform at Bere Alston. Back to the point about the entire route again. Should the entire route be reinstated then thet would remedy the pathing and gauging issues between St Budeaux and Bere Alston as the line would to be route cleared for all current rolling stock that currently uses the mainline. The viaduct at Ernesettle is only route cleared for a two coach DMU currently and the current pathing limitations couldn't accommodate both individual Gunnislake and Tavistock services alongside each other. The MOD still also own a number of paths between Ernesettle sidings and St Budeaux Jcn, though they are very rarely used Network Rail still must hold these paths open.

That's the technical and legal jargon out the way and now on to my own view.
Personally I'd like to see it but could the Tavistock-Plymouth stretch on it's own ever be financially viable? Firstly it would struggle to compete with the bus services which are every 10 to 15 mins, the train at very best would have a frequency of every 90 minutes (which is the current maximum frequency on the line) Another factor is a lot of the employment centres a lot of commuters from Tavistock commute to are in the Derriford corridor which the bus alread serves direct so a infrequent train service isn't going to be a viable alternative for a lot of commuters. It's main patronage will come from people wanting to make onward rail connections from Plymouth and will be mostly limited to that.

Stone the cr.............................

[quote="PAFCJosh"]The only way the line would ever get half way to becoming financially viable would be if it was reinstated in full between Bere Alston and Meldon. I did some consultancy work with some of the stakeholders and the cost ratios that went back to the stakeholders for the Bere Alston to Tavistock reinstatement were pretty poor.

Apart from the £100+million cost there was also substantial infrastructure and operational issues for the existing route between St Budeaux and Bere Alston.
Should the line open, then because of gauging and pathing issues, Calstock and Gunnislake would lose their existing direct services to Plymouth and Exeter and be replaced by a shuttle utilizing the disused platform at Bere Alston. Back to the point about the entire route again. Should the entire route be reinstated then thet would remedy the pathing and gauging issues between St Budeaux and Bere Alston as the line would to be route cleared for all current rolling stock that currently uses the mainline. The viaduct at Ernesettle is only route cleared for a two coach DMU currently and the current pathing limitations couldn't accommodate both individual Gunnislake and Tavistock services alongside each other. The MOD still also own a number of paths between Ernesettle sidings and St Budeaux Jcn, though they are very rarely used Network Rail still must hold these paths open.

That's the technical and legal jargon out the way and now on to my own view.
Personally I'd like to see it but could the Tavistock-Plymouth stretch on it's own ever be financially viable? Firstly it would struggle to compete with the bus services which are every 10 to 15 mins, the train at very best would have a frequency of every 90 minutes (which is the current maximum frequency on the line) Another factor is a lot of the employment centres a lot of commuters from Tavistock commute to are in the Derriford corridor which the bus alread serves direct so a infrequent train service isn't going to be a viable alternative for a lot of commuters. It's main patronage will come from people wanting to make onward rail connections from Plymouth and will be mostly limited to that. [/quote

I could respond to the above particularly about route availability where you are incorrect, however I will not reply to any of your posts while your avatar accuses me of being a racist because I support Brexit.
This’ll my last response to you.

Don't tell him your name Pike. Lol. Self outing.
Anyway it's bollocks about only work being in the Derriford corridor and it's not only work that draws us Tavvians into Plymouth and not only that it links up to the national rail network and tue buses are shite and take fookin ages.

Graiser wrote:

PAFCJosh wrote:

The only way the line would ever get half way to becoming financially viable would be if it was reinstated in full between Bere Alston and Meldon. I did some consultancy work with some of the stakeholders and the cost ratios that went back to the stakeholders for the Bere Alston to Tavistock reinstatement were pretty poor.

Apart from the £100+million cost there was also substantial infrastructure and operational issues for the existing route between St Budeaux and Bere Alston.
Should the line open, then because of gauging and pathing issues, Calstock and Gunnislake would lose their existing direct services to Plymouth and Exeter and be replaced by a shuttle utilizing the disused platform at Bere Alston. Back to the point about the entire route again. Should the entire route be reinstated then thet would remedy the pathing and gauging issues between St Budeaux and Bere Alston as the line would to be route cleared for all current rolling stock that currently uses the mainline. The viaduct at Ernesettle is only route cleared for a two coach DMU currently and the current pathing limitations couldn't accommodate both individual Gunnislake and Tavistock services alongside each other. The MOD still also own a number of paths between Ernesettle sidings and St Budeaux Jcn, though they are very rarely used Network Rail still must hold these paths open.

That's the technical and legal jargon out the way and now on to my own view.
Personally I'd like to see it but could the Tavistock-Plymouth stretch on it's own ever be financially viable? Firstly it would struggle to compete with the bus services which are every 10 to 15 mins, the train at very best would have a frequency of every 90 minutes (which is the current maximum frequency on the line) Another factor is a lot of the employment centres a lot of commuters from Tavistock commute to are in the Derriford corridor which the bus alread serves direct so a infrequent train service isn't going to be a viable alternative for a lot of commuters. It's main patronage will come from people wanting to make onward rail connections from Plymouth and will be mostly limited to that. [/quote

I could respond to the above particularly about route availability where you are incorrect, however I will not reply to any of your posts while your avatar accuses me of being a racist because I support Brexit.
This’ll my last response to you.

Was from the Network Rail route appendix for that section somewhere in the 726 page document we had on it. I'm not over clued up on railway infrastructure but the Network Rail liaison specifically told us the issue currently was Ernesettle viaduct. She also told us the current infrastructure at Bere Alston can only accommodate a two coach DMU as two sets coupled together wouldn't clear the Calstock ground frame.
During this consultation we asked what the estimated cost would be to a rail operator to run a single return working on the route would be, which they couldn't answer. The Great Western Rail did though eventually tell us that the cost of a return working from Plymouth to Gunnislake including staffing and fuel and other related costs excluding maintenance is around £1200. Considering the highest fare on the route is less than £7 then even if any scheduled service carried it's full capacity of around 120 people then it still falls considerably short of breaking even. Yes I know theres goverment and council subsidies to mitigate it a little but this was one real level of concern with the stakeholders as the operational costings for Tavistock would be largely similar.

PAFCJosh wrote:

Graiser wrote:

PAFCJosh wrote:

The only way the line would ever get half way to becoming financially viable would be if it was reinstated in full between Bere Alston and Meldon. I did some consultancy work with some of the stakeholders and the cost ratios that went back to the stakeholders for the Bere Alston to Tavistock reinstatement were pretty poor.

Apart from the £100+million cost there was also substantial infrastructure and operational issues for the existing route between St Budeaux and Bere Alston.
Should the line open, then because of gauging and pathing issues, Calstock and Gunnislake would lose their existing direct services to Plymouth and Exeter and be replaced by a shuttle utilizing the disused platform at Bere Alston. Back to the point about the entire route again. Should the entire route be reinstated then thet would remedy the pathing and gauging issues between St Budeaux and Bere Alston as the line would to be route cleared for all current rolling stock that currently uses the mainline. The viaduct at Ernesettle is only route cleared for a two coach DMU currently and the current pathing limitations couldn't accommodate both individual Gunnislake and Tavistock services alongside each other. The MOD still also own a number of paths between Ernesettle sidings and St Budeaux Jcn, though they are very rarely used Network Rail still must hold these paths open.

That's the technical and legal jargon out the way and now on to my own view.
Personally I'd like to see it but could the Tavistock-Plymouth stretch on it's own ever be financially viable? Firstly it would struggle to compete with the bus services which are every 10 to 15 mins, the train at very best would have a frequency of every 90 minutes (which is the current maximum frequency on the line) Another factor is a lot of the employment centres a lot of commuters from Tavistock commute to are in the Derriford corridor which the bus alread serves direct so a infrequent train service isn't going to be a viable alternative for a lot of commuters. It's main patronage will come from people wanting to make onward rail connections from Plymouth and will be mostly limited to that. [/quote

I could respond to the above particularly about route availability where you are incorrect, however I will not reply to any of your posts while your avatar accuses me of being a racist because I support Brexit.
This’ll my last response to you.

Was from the Network Rail route appendix for that section somewhere in the 726 page document we had on it. I'm not over clued up on railway infrastructure but the Network Rail liaison specifically told us the issue currently was Ernesettle viaduct. She also told us the current infrastructure at Bere Alston can only accommodate a two coach DMU as two sets coupled together wouldn't clear the Calstock ground frame.

Please change your avatar it is offensive.

Thank you Mouldy and Knosher.

Thanks to the Mods, I still feel there’s something awry with this poster but I’ll indulge him for a little while.
My personal feeling towards reopening the whole route emotionally is yes but practically it’s no.
The main drive to reopen from Tavy to Bere Alston is commuter driven which would require light diesel rail cars such as what’s currently in use.
Bere Alston would become a Junction as it was previously.
Gunnislake’s direct service to Plymouth wouldn’t be any different to now with the old up Platform at BA becoming operational and the service running to Plymouth from that platform.
Depending on frequency of service a train occupying the BA to Tavy section would allow a service to run from BA to Plymouth at the same time.
It would also be possible to run a Tavy to Gunnislake service while at the same time a train is running from Plymouth to BA and beyond to Tavy, the Gunnislake train then runs to Plymouth at the same time, it’s all a question of good train regulation.
It would also be possible to upgrade the existing ernesettle loop to passenger status to enable two trains to pass each other.
Although a connection to the RNAD still exists, nothing has been in that depot for years but if there was to be a movement in there then do it at night or in quiet times similar to the Keyham access to the Dockyard for nuclear traffic.
In regard to the bridge structures you have to realise that single and 2 coach units currently use it which is subject to demand on the existing route.
The restrictions on the existing route are mainly down to the length of train that can fit into BA and not necessarily due to weight and as the route will be extended to Tavy the length restriction in that Platform would not exist
During recent planned track renewals about 5-8 years ago we were taking 2 class 60’s to Gunnislake with associated wagons loaded with up to 30 tonnes of track materials on each wagon.
No I don’t see the track infrastructure being problematic but what will be very expensive to design and install would be the signalling infrastructure.
Currently the form of signalling is a train staff the driver, after getting an electronic release from the Plymouth Signalman, withdraws from St. Budeaux, he retains this staff until he returns to St Budeaux from Gunnislake, this prevents another train entering the section.
The new scheme will require a more sophisticated form of signalling and believe me from personal experience that alone is very expensive.

His avatars are usually always the giveaway. He can't help himself

His current one of Golders Green - A predominantly Jewish area in North London. Go figure.

Anyway, wouldn't it be great to catch a train from Tavi to Muffsville once again. Never understood some of Beechings cuts. Get rid of the Tavi to Muff line but keep Gunnislake to Muff? The foot-fall must be hugely in favour of the Tavi line. Shorly!

POI wrote:

His avatars are usually always the giveaway. He can't help himself

His current one of Golders Green - A predominantly Jewish area in North London. Go figure.

Anyway, wouldn't it be great to catch a train from Tavi to Muffsville once again. Never understood some of Beechings cuts. Get rid of the Tavi to Muff line but keep Gunnislake to Muff? The foot-fall must be hugely in favour of the Tavi line. Shorly!

In the last ten years they must have built at least two housand homes in Tavvy and they have about another four thousand planned for the next ten years, after that they have earmarked loads more building in Crowndale, Monksmead and Whitchurch area. The A 386 couldnt cope with the traffic ten years ago.
I wonder how the cost per passenger of reinstating the whole route would compare to HS2 which lets not forget already has train lines on it it's just trying to cut some journey times.