EU referendum...THE RESULT...and aftermath...

It's feckin hopeless. Any "deal" will keep us linked to and paying Europe. Tue biggest lie is that he only way to leave the EU is with a deal. I said this two years ago nothing has made me change my mind. We are going t end up tied to Europe for years and have no say in how it's run. Glad it's not my fault.

Earwegoagain wrote:

It's feckin hopeless. Any "deal" will keep us linked to and paying Europe. Tue biggest lie is that he only way to leave the EU is with a deal. I said this two years ago nothing has made me change my mind. We are going t end up tied to Europe for years and have no say in how it's run. Glad it's not my fault.

But we are tied to Europe anyway, we cannot escape it. Like Dominic Raab belatedly realised, we are extremely relIant on the Calais/Dover crossing. We also share a land border with a EU state. It was never achievable within the timescale set,.

Ps I reckon I might be right about Theresa May although I thought she might hang on until her vote was defeated. She might not not even last the weekend.

Hugh Watt wrote:

Earwegoagain wrote:

It's feckin hopeless. Any "deal" will keep us linked to and paying Europe. Tue biggest lie is that he only way to leave the EU is with a deal. I said this two years ago nothing has made me change my mind. We are going t end up tied to Europe for years and have no say in how it's run. Glad it's not my fault.

But we are tied to Europe anyway, we cannot escape it. Like Dominic Raab belatedly realised, we are extremely relIant on the Calais/Dover crossing. We also share a land border with a EU state. It was never achievable within the timescale set,.

Ps I reckon I might be right about Theresa May although I thought she might hang on until her vote was defeated. She might not not even last the weekend.

The problem with sacking May is who will her replacement? Some other dinosaur representing one of the factions in parliament, a poisoned chalice if ever there was one.

Theresa May's deal is a mess because it was based in her "red lines" and they weren't even coherent to begin with.

What we have to do here is actually agree on what sort of Brexit, if any, we eventually opt for but this isn't the abstract wish list some seem to believe it to be.

If we just crash out there will be an economic mess of unholy proportion according to every single reliable financial model there is and the practicalities make it unthinkable not that thinking has much to with chosen policy since many didn't seem to realise that slower channel crossings meant we would need more of them until recently.

Only a complete fantasist, idiot or liar could ever say that No Deal makes any sense whatsoever.

Which leaves some sort of deal. If you want to seal up our borders so that we can take back control and stop all those pesky immigrants from coming in (which we have always been able to do but have always chosen not to) we will need unprecedented and so far unrecruited numbers of Border control types: police, customs, car park attendants etc on the mainland and the same in Ireland but also we need to create, maintain and enforce a border - a border which negates the Good Friday Agreement on which the uneasy peace in Northern Ireland rests because it defines how Stormont is (supposed) to function.

So a border which none of the UK, NI, RoI or EU want is not ever going to exist. That rules out the next level of Brexit which would be leaving the Single Market.

Meaning we have to stay in the Single Market. To gain access to that we will need to adopt all of the EU regulations. If we do that we are not taking back control. We just move away from the decision-making process while still having to abide by those decisions. We might even have to accept freedom of movement of people. So if it is all about taking back control of our borders and our courts and our employment law and manufacturing regulations etc then that's no good and, to be honest, there isn't much point no matter which side of the divide you occupy.

Basically we are left with a rather stark choice: just jump off that cliff and hope that Newton was wrong about gravity or not bother, pack up, say it was all a silly fantasy because we'd forgotten all about the existence if gravity but have remembered just in time.

But what we cannot say is "we knew what we were voting for" because if you really did think all of that about NI and it was all widely debated and explained that it all means a border, the end to the GFA, Stormont and a possible resurgence in sectarian terrorism then that just might not have seemed popular enough, lie or not, to paint on the side of a bus.

We do not have to slavishly implement a corrupted, advisory referendum and shouldn't.

If we are to crash out then we should a second referendum with that being the explicit choice.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

Theresa May's deal is a mess because it was based in her "red lines" and they weren't even coherent to begin with.

What we have to do here is actually agree on what sort of Brexit, if any, we eventually opt for but this isn't the abstract wish list some seem to believe it to be.

If we just crash out there will be an economic mess of unholy proportion according to every single reliable financial model there is and the practicalities make it unthinkable not that thinking has much to with chosen policy since many didn't seem to realise that slower channel crossings meant we would need more of them until recently.

Only a complete fantasist, idiot or liar could ever say that No Deal makes any sense whatsoever.

Which leaves some sort of deal. If you want to seal up our borders so that we can take back control and stop all those pesky immigrants from coming in (which we have always been able to do but have always chosen not to) we will need unprecedented and so far unrecruited numbers of Border control types: police, customs, car park attendants etc on the mainland and the same in Ireland but also we need to create, maintain and enforce a border - a border which negates the Good Friday Agreement on which the uneasy peace in Northern Ireland rests because it defines how Stormont is (supposed) to function.

So a border which none of the UK, NI, RoI or EU want is not ever going to exist. That rules out the next level of Brexit which would be leaving the Single Market.

Meaning we have to stay in the Single Market. To gain access to that we will need to adopt all of the EU regulations. If we do that we are not taking back control. We just move away from the decision-making process while still having to abide by those decisions. We might even have to accept freedom of movement of people. So if it is all about taking back control of our borders and our courts and our employment law and manufacturing regulations etc then that's no good and, to be honest, there isn't much point no matter which side of the divide you occupy.

Basically we are left with a rather stark choice: just jump off that cliff and hope that Newton was wrong about gravity or not bother, pack up, say it was all a silly fantasy because we'd forgotten all about the existence if gravity but have remembered just in time.

But what we cannot say is "we knew what we were voting for" because if you really did think all of that about NI and it was all widely debated and explained that it all means a border, the end to the GFA, Stormont and a possible resurgence in sectarian terrorism then that just might not have seemed popular enough, lie or not, to paint on the side of a bus.

We do not have to slavishly implement a corrupted, advisory referendum and shouldn't.

If we are to crash out then we should a second referendum with that being the explicit choice.

What if we've been brainwashed by the British Bias Corporation, Sly news and governmental brown-enveloped think tanks into believing no deal will be catastrophic.

I don't know. Clearly I'm no fiscal analyst with financial brains the size of a baboons ball bag.  I'm just a racist, Brexiteering dullard - but, I'm not convinced it'll be the end of the world that some would have you believe.

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"Only a complete fantasist, idiot or liar could ever say that No Deal makes any sense whatsoever."
Frannie in a nutshell right there. The are literally millions of people out there, normal intelligent and successful people who think we'd cope with no deal (also known as doing what we voted for btw) and what's more in time we'd thrive. None of the doom laden prophecies have come to pass project fear is and was just that.
I'd just add that anybody who repeatedly makes assertions such as these is no better than any racist. I'd go as far to say that Frannies personality make him the stereotype that many radical organisations would be looking for. He should seek help before it gets out of hand.

Well I am no fiscal analyst with financial brains the size of a baboon's ball bag either.

I have to rely on the judgement of others who are in such matters just like I have to rely on a dentist if I have toothache or a mechanic if I want my car fixed. I have abilities but fiscal analysis of financial issues requiring brains the size of a baboon's ball bag is not one of them.

So I rely on experts who do have the skills and ability to fiscally analyse things requiring financial brains the size of a baboon's ball bag. Obviously experts can be wrong and if their advice seems to be contrary to what I might reasonably expect, I do like to think I possess the ability to critically evaluate and assess, then I look at another and then another and so on until such times as I feel I can make some sort of informed judgement.

From there a government committed to delivering Brexit has released, often extremely reluctantly, reports from the Treasury, DExEU and the OBR. They have all assessed that the economy will be adversely impacted.

There has also been reports from the Bank Of England, OECD and  IMF which have all concluded that the economy will be adversely impacted.

There has been independently commissioned reports on behalf of our local councils assessing what will happen to them and the have concluded that the economy will be adversely impacted.

Independent "think tanks" like the highly respected and neutral IFS have concluded that the economy will be adversely impacted.

A raft of internationally renowned academic economists have all published swathes of articles, books, blogs and newspaper articles concluding that the economy will be adversely impacted.

Some of the loudests proponents of Brexit like Dyson have shipped their production over-seas, Jacob Rees-Mogg has shifted his operations out of the UK into Ireland, Lord Ashcroft has shifted to Malta, John Redwood has advised his clients to invest in the EU and not the UK.

Big, important companies like Sony, Honda, Nissan, Panasonic have relocated. The Institute Of Directors estimates that 1 in 3 businesses that can will relocate to Europe.

The CBI and the TUC both say Brexit will be disastrous for employment.

Even Jacob Rees-Mogg says that it could take 50 years for us to see the benefit.

If you can't spot a trend here then you genuinely are a complete idiot. If you spot the trend and deny it you are either scamming it to your own advantage (c.f. JRM) or dumb as feck and trolling for LOLZ.

TRUST NO ONE - BELIEVE NOTHING - QUESTION EVERYTHING

P.O.I wrote:

TRUST NO ONE - BELIEVE NOTHING - QUESTION EVERYTHING

OFFER NOTHING IN REPLY

You are engaging in real head in the sand stuff. Simply denying something because you insist it to be is not something adults usually do but it is exactly what you are doing. Where is the joined-up thinking here? Some sort of definitive arc that links it all together? Because I can't see one. All I see is bluster and abuse for the large part from roughty toughty types who I wouldn't expect to behave like prissy snowflakes.

Not just you by the way. Many others too.

Shouting "PLANET FEAR" all the time is a complete cop out.

Show me a few financially robust documents or reports that estimate the boost to the economy post-Brexit that are not sheer propaganda and which have not been laughed out of town for their ludicrous short-comings.

There must be dozens and dozens of them. Where are they?

Google is your friend.

Googles my friend as well, I could list hundreds of supporting pieces as well, it's all opinions in no way divided into, liars, thickos, racists and dullards,
Brexit could boost the UK economy by as much as £135 billion a year, according to a comprehensive new report by a team of leading economists who argue that it is time to abandon the gloomy forecasts of Project Fear and embrace Project Prosperity – the mounting evidence that quitting the protectionist EU will transform Britain’s prospects over the next decade.

The surge in national output – worth about £5,000 a year to the average UK household – should also be accompanied by an 8 per cent fall in prices – which would add an average of £40 a week to such households, raising living standards, creating new, better paid jobs and cutting unemployment.

They include a reduction in their bills of £2.50 a week triggered by savings in benefits currently paid to unskilled EU immigrants.

The glowing assessment of Britain’s post-Brexit future comes in a 50-page report to be published in full in the autumn by Economists for Free Trade (EFT), a 16-strong group of experts, which includes Patrick Minford, Professor of Economics at Cardiff University and Roger Bootle, Chairman of Capital Economics, Europe’s largest macroeconomics consultancy.

Project Bullshit.

Anybody can c&p.

In your own words explain how "Brexit could boost the UK economy by as much as £135 billion a year".

Y'know: pretend you've read and understand it, line it up against dozens of other reports from varying sources and see how it stacks up.

You didn't get how slower ferries meant more ferries so I suspect it might be beyond you but give it a go. Prove you aren't just parroting idiocy.

Argyle's season ticket price Brexit could rise by as much as £135 billion next year.

Probably won't though.

Patrick Minford?

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Brexit would lead to running down the car industry “in the same way we ran down the coal and steel industries”.

"In the run up to the referendum in 2016, he also said that Brexit would "eliminate" manufacturing."

So basically swivel-eyed crazy economist says crazy swivel-eyed things his crazy swivel-eyed mates can quote.

I did say that propaganada wouldn't count and it still doesn't.

But are they thick liars or just intelligent people with a different opinion to your own? Get out of those echo chambers. Open your eyes and ears.

Swivel eyed? You're sounding like Newell now.

Earwegoagain wrote:

But are they thick liars or just intelligent people with a different opinion to your own? Get out of those echo chambers. Open your eyes and ears.

To what: high profile Brexit campaigners with a vested interest lining their pockets due to gullible fools like you who think any of it even possible when it isn't, wasn't and never will be?

I know you want to believe. You desperately want to believe. It burns brightly inside you. That burning excites you.

But no matter how loud you shout, no matter how obnoxious you try to be, no matter how much you want it to happen it won't because it can't.

Tucked away amongst our arcane institutions sits probably the most arcane institution of then all: the Civil Service.

It is the CS that has compiled all the governmental reports. The CS is by definition entirely impartial.

Were I to choose just one set of reports to trust it would be theirs because they work for me because they work for government and government leads parliament and parliament is sovereign.

And I believe that British values should be decided by British sovereignty and the CS is a part of that.

Not some chancer looking to profit from it all, preferably.

I merely referenced all the rest to establish that not any reputable source has denied that our economy will tank and all of those reports say it'll tank more the more extreme the version of Brexit we adopt.

Brexit Secretary says Tories can’t accept a Brexit deal at odds with their manifesto.

Forgetting they quietly dropped: Dementia tax, fox hunting repeal, ending free school meals, stopping pensioner benefits and pensions triple lock, which voters also elected them to implement.

Rubbish one set of opinions says well tank another says well thrive, probably run right along the middle. Just because some opinions don't align themselves to yours doesn't make them wrong or right they just exist. Made by intelligent people. Are you an only child by any chance?

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

Brexit Secretary says Tories can’t accept a Brexit deal at odds with their manifesto.

Forgetting they quietly dropped: Dementia tax, fox hunting repeal, ending free school meals, stopping pensioner benefits and pensions triple lock, which voters also elected them to implement.

No one cares about the rules Frannie least of all you.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

P.O.I wrote:

TRUST NO ONE - BELIEVE NOTHING - QUESTION EVERYTHING

OFFER NOTHING IN REPLY

You are engaging in real head in the sand stuff. Simply denying something because you insist it to be is not something adults usually do but it is exactly what you are doing. Where is the joined-up thinking here? Some sort of definitive arc that links it all together? Because I can't see one. All I see is bluster and abuse for the large part from roughty toughty types who I wouldn't expect to behave like prissy snowflakes.

Not just you by the way. Many others too.

Shouting "PLANET FEAR" all the time is a complete cop out.

Show me a few financially robust documents or reports that estimate the boost to the economy post-Brexit that are not sheer propaganda and which have not been laughed out of town for their ludicrous short-comings.

There must be dozens and dozens of them. Where are they?

Google is your friend.

Well, that was easy.

You're letting your infatuation with Brexit destroy you, Roger.

You lost. We are leaving. There isn't going to be a 2nd referendum. Godzilla won't invade London. Planes won't fall out of the sky. You're still a condescending prick. What are you afraid of?

I await another boring load of BS scrapped from some quasi, back patting, self serving remaniac think tank.. Go on. We can't wait. Gawd almighty.

Would you like world war 2 replayed too? Battle of Hastings? 1966 world cup final?

What do we want? A referendum. When do we want it? Until we get what we want.

Bring on Brexit day and the start of a new era for this country. If that makes me a racist dullard then guilty as charged, feel free to feck off to Europe of you love it so much.

When a football team fields ineligible players the result rarely stands.

I'm rather fond of this country as it happens but I don't think the Union will survive Brexit.

If Ireland ends up united or Scotland secedes as a result you'll have to redefine Pyrrhic victory because Britain can only take back control if it continues to exist.

Scotland is probably gone, a combination of an English dullard in charge of Labour and Brexiteering Hoorah Henry Tories concentrating on negative PR and slavish devotion to the English HQs.

I think we will leave, just because the commons is stuffed with self serving, short term wankers.

I don't think we, taxpayers, will be better off, but the organisers, Farge, IDS etc,etc will make a killing.

Lorraine Kelly is a slag.

seadog wrote:

Scotland is probably gone, a combination of an English dullard in charge of Labour and Brexiteering Hoorah Henry Tories concentrating on negative PR and slavish devotion to the English HQs.

I think we will leave, just because the commons is stuffed with self serving, short term wankers.

I don't think we, taxpayers, will be better off, but the organisers, Farge, IDS etc,etc will make a killing.

Lorraine Kelly is a slag.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

When a football team fields ineligible players the result rarely stands.

I'm rather fond of this country as it happens but I don't think the Union will survive Brexit.

If Ireland ends up united or Scotland secedes as a result you'll have to redefine Pyrrhic victory because Britain can only take back control if it continues to exist.

Britain got through two world wors(sic). I think we can manage Brexit, FFS.