EU referendum...THE RESULT...and aftermath...

A frictionless border was actually UK requirement as set in a Govt white paper on the issue in August of last year, nobody wants a hard border for a variety of reasons but the biggest barrier to a solution has been the Prime Ministers insistence on ending of freedom from the EU.

How do you do that with a great big open border with the EU with somehting like 28 crossing points?

A lot Chickens are coming home to roost as we deal with the intricacies of it all. Vague sloganeering such as "leave means leave", "You lost get over it" with the insistence on treating an advisory referendum as somethign akin to the magna carta with no credible route to departure have left the result open to interpretation.

You can put who the feck you want in, it won't change anything.

I agree with POI. There would be teething problems but things would soon level out and we'd be fine.

Hugh Watt wrote:

Earwegoagain wrote:

Hugh Watt wrote:

Earwegoagain wrote:

Hugh Watt wrote:

Earwegoagain wrote:

I love the way the ERG are the ones painted as bastards and not the house of commons as a whole who are wilfully going against the result of a legally binding referendum. At least I'm not shocked or hurt more like I'm carrying a sad air of vindication that my view of politics in general has been bang on all my life.
I still wouldn't rule out a no deal though.

Sorry you've lost me, the house of commons voted massively in favour of activating article 50 and massively in favour of the EU wihtdrawal act. Not that the referedum was legally binding either, it was advisory. So I'm not sure what you have a problem with?

Just to rewind to this bit as evidence of more false news or at the very least skewed news. All refererendums in the UK unlike the republic of Ireland are advisory and used to gauge public opinion before legislation is passed. This is what was written on the government leaflet we all recieved before the referendum,

"In accordance with the Act and the public duty of the Electoral Commission, a guide was posted to every household in the UK and Gibraltar in the week beginning of 16 May 2016 by HM Government. The advisory leaflet was titled: "Why the Government believes that voting to remain in the European Union is the best decision for the UK". This leaflet clearly stated: "This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide".[12]"

"We" as in a majority of the British public voted to leave the European Union. The Government should fulfil its promise and remainers should stop bleating about how all of this is somehow illegal, it's not.

So I'm right then/

(NB Fake news shouldnt be used interchangeably with "things I don't agree with".)

No youre only right if you ignore the line which says "this is your decision the government will implement what you decide". We wouldn't even be discussing the validity of the referendum if the answer was remain. You maybe happy to see democracy being dismantled I'm not.

Except The Government have done that by activating article 50, passing the withdrawal bill and negotiating an agreement that sees us leave the EU. The fact its a shit deal and not as economically ruinous as you want is irelevant to the debate on democracy. A simnple leave or remain question was asked and it was answered, nobody asked anything the terms of departure and future relationship. You won get over it.

In fact you can see from Harves post above, not all leave voters want the same thing. So its a bit rich whining about democracy being dismantled on the one hand whilst demanding your type of brexit on the other.

Whining about how democracy is being by-passed is very pertinent and serious, some our own Politicians (Dominic Grieve in particular) have manoeuvred the situation with the full intention of arriving at this stinking impasse and are subsequently pushing for another referendum, which to my mind is flouting the will of the majority.

So basically your problem is that Theresa May isn't allowed to do what she wants? Because thats what Grieves amendment prevents. I can't figure your problem a second referdum is bypassing democracy either, a binary question was asked, a binary response was given.

Harve for instant voted leave but obviously his version of Brexit isn't as ruinously self punishing as yours so doesnt get allowed a say.

harvetheslayer wrote:

Zyph
Yes the choice was remain or leave. I voted to leave but as with any divorce there is negotiation with both parties coming to a mutual agreement
We are not leaving with a complete no deal. It simply cannot happen because the riots over deprivation subsequently will be a sight worse than people believing they have been deprived of their democratic vote

No...The majority of the coutry voted to leave the European Union with no further detail requested on when or what terms and we see ourselves people that voted leave want different things ( such as Harve, a comment which you appear to have ignored because it doesn't suit your agenda).

I don't understand why such a proponent of democracy would reject the idea of a referendum to set out the terms of leaving or offering the option to remain.

It would be funny if there was another referendum and the vote went for leave

PatDunne wrote:

It would be funny if there was another referendum and the vote went for leave

Then the remainers would ask for the best of five.... .

PatDunne wrote:

It would be funny if there was another referendum and the vote went for leave

Not as funny as your failure to comprehend the purpose of a second referendum.

I thought you voted remain anyway, or so you said.

I think you are wrong, it would be way funnier than any failing on my part, and it would be hilarious seeing JC having to support the remain option.

PatDunne wrote:

I think you are wrong, it would be way funnier than any failing on my part, and it would be hilarious seeing JC having to support the remain option.

The point of a second referendum would be to differentiate between the reasoned Harve leave vote and the self inflicted punishment of a Gaffer brexit. Remain should be on the ballot but it would clearly have a lower chanve of suceeding.

The trouble is people are treating the 2016 vote like it was the Magna Carta, so any sort of reasoned debate is responded to with wails about democracy, "the will of the people" etc.

Anyway I thought you voted remain.

Hugh Watt wrote:

No...The majority of the coutry voted to leave the European Union with no further detail requested on when or what terms and we see ourselves people that voted leave want different things ( such as Harve, a comment which you appear to have ignored because it doesn't suit your agenda).

I don't understand why such a proponent of democracy would reject the idea of a referendum to set out the terms of leaving or offering the option to remain.

Our esteemed politicians have engineered it, they’d do and are doing anything to prevent Brexit even after they passed the act for a referendum, Christ how they must have regretted doing that.

I can just imagine how much Hugh and co would whine if we voted remain in the referendum and May took us out with no deal. Feckin unbelievable.
Plus the one and only reason we won't get another referendum is that they are dead worried that leave would win again.
Anyway we are due to feck around until the end of January when May will get her deal kicked out of parliament then we will probably get a general election which will be pretty irrelevant who wins because the new government won't have time to do anything before 31st March.

Out of interest who does everybody think would win a general election? I reckon the Tories would as most Lefties I know don't like Corbyn but you couldn't rule out a Labour/SNP/Plaid/DUP/UKIP pact.
Or maybe May will launch a breakaway party of remainer Tories who will stand on the manifesto of pretending to deliver Brexit whilst really being in the pockets of the banks and large German factory owners. They'd storm it.

Where’s the “monster raving loony party” when you want them !

I think the Torys now have a chance due to many remarking how hard May has worked blah blah even though the outcome is a nightmare.

Corbyn ought to steamroller it but the older generation may scupper him for the fear of him dragging us back into the seventies, but the youngsters could be gullible enough to fall for the lies re Student fees.

I’ve never known an era like this where our so called political masters of all persuasions are basically just crap, it’s a real worry

As far as I am concerned the 2016 referendum result was the 'will of the people'.

This 2nd referendum is not a people's vote it is a remainer's vote to stop the 'will of the people'.


It is also anti democratic. If the 2nd one went the same way as the 1st then they would want a 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and so on and so on until they get what they want.

This whole brexit mess is all because the remainers are bad losers and May and Hammond, both remainers have played a blinder and fecked it up to stop the 'will of the people'.

Some Remainers would rather Britain was swallowed up into a euro super state than be a sovereign state.

All this doom and gloom about what will happen when we leave is bollocks, an extension of project fear.

There was a great article a few weeks ago by Roger Bootle in the Telegraph about a hard Brexit being a myth.
It gives a number of examples of forecasts that said we would suffer if we didn't do what the establishment said.

1931 - they wanted us to stay in something called the gold standard or hell would break loose. We did leave and suffered the 'fasted sustained growth of output in our industrial history'.

1992 - GB in the ERM and struggling. The treasury amongst others forecast rocketing inflation, soaring interest rates and an economy that would 'tank' if we left.

We left and we had lower inflation, lower interest rates and growth that brought unemployment and the budget deficit 'sharply' lower.

Then there was the euro. The BBC, business leaders and some newspapers he calls establishment ones wanted us to join and again forecast the dire consequences if we didn't.


He gave some information which was informative.


The euro was formed in 1999.
German and French economies have grown by 32%.
Italy's by 9%.

UK economy growth by 44%.


Getting a recurring theme here any one?

Roger Bootle is the Chairman of something called Capital Economics.

If this whole situation was reversed and leavers were pushing for a 2nd vote then remainers would be saying no.


Any remainer saying otherwise would be lying.



The only choice for MP's in January is back May's crappy deal or no deal.


She said when she became PM. Brexit means Brexit and no deal is better than a bad deal.
Hers is a bad deal.

The EU has stated no change to what has been agreed between us and them. That means no deal is the only thing left.

The Euro nearly put Eire on its arse.

They soon caught up though. Richer per capita than the UK by quite a margin these days, better welfare insurance, health etc. No wonder they don't want to give an inch to Tweeza, and I don't blame them.

I see Rudd is vying with Tweezers for the most naive/cheeky politician ever by asking Labour centrists MPs to help them out of their impasse and thereby installing her as the new leader. Yet another non starter LOL. They really are out of touch and off the planet in their own little world.

I would have thought the way to sort the Irish problem would be put it to a vote in Ireland. Probably the last people they'd ask though.

They would't dream of leaving Europe. Apart from the Euro blip ( stupid currency and a bad mistake ) it's been manna from heaven for them.  The perfect geopolitical partner who delivered them from the devil.

No the border solution. Btw I'm well aware of what Ireland is and isn't I've spent a lot of time there and have several good Irish friends.

Me too. Then you'll know few want a return to the hard border and troubles. As to reunification, who knows what people want either side of the "border". I doubt if Dublin would want the headache of colonial leftovers to pay for. "Keeping" northern ireland in UK hands costs more per annum than the UK gives to the EU every year. So much for trying to keep government spending to a minimum. Empire doesn't come cheap these days. I reckon "we" should have a vote on that as well. I'm into democratic PR referendums on all the big issues, but not first past the post alone as that can't take into account the interests of minorities of less than 50%. Should be workable though

My Aunty came from Antrim and their family had to leave because of the troubles, even to her dying day she used to cry about Ireland. I know another two families around Tavistock who left for the same reasons. All of them thinks it's fecked up and just want it to stop. If it was left to ornery folk it would have stopped long ago. Clinton makes my blood boil as do a lot of yanks who sent money home to support the "family" otherwise known as the Provos.

Careful Earwig, you'll be blaming bleddy outsider "Russian" money if you're not careful. See what I did there ?   LOL  
I think Ireland and it's lament goes right back to the original brexit from Rome. That was a good break. Hopefully, this one will be a good one. At least there's no religion this time dividing the ordinaries and elites on both sides. Sadly, I see ordinaries just as capable of aggression as elites, we all have the capacity and human condition.