Plymouth Argyle v Wycombe Wanderers Boxing Day match day thread

Didn't look good when they showed a clip last night on bbc local news of the green faithful queuing in the car park.
Loved the panoramic shot of the potholed car park complete with rubbish skips, and the portakabin style argyle 'superstore'.
Complete with the two excited green army, obviously overjoyed at actually holding their Liverpool tickets, after their three hour wait.
Brents argyle 2016, enjoy.

Rollo Tomasi wrote:

Rollo Tomasi wrote:

I fully expect Argyle's defence to cave in to the pace of Kashket and the strength of Akinfenwa.

Now I'm no expert on football tactics but if I, and others, can see it coming then why can't Adams.

S'songoos best position is sitting in front of the back four acting as a shield for the defence. In fact this is his only position.

So what does Adams do? Leaves Bulvitis on the bench and plonks S'songoo alongside Bradley!

I don't get it.

Just out of interest, why did sweepers go out of fashion?

They didn't.

Effectively they doubled in number and are now referred to as "centre backs" and what used to be known as a "centre half" is now a "holding midfielder".

We are, I think, actually regressing to something like the old (2-3-5) "wing half" days.

There's always 2 big guys to head the ball away but they "sweep" most of the time behind the real defenders who are the full backs and holding midfielder. The "false [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], "man-in-the-hole" (sometimes known as the "free man") then drop back to flood the midfield as a 5.

For "wing halves" read "left midfield" and "inside right" read, um, "fox in the box" and you get the idea.

The only thing we miss these days, Andy Carroll apart, is the big [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Robbie Turner figure up-front.

I can go along with much of that appraisal. Wotton was converted into the holding central "third centre back", and the new alignments allowed him to take a role that was never possible with the old "half backs" who tended to play slightly wider. The rather short Johnny Hore was a classic no 4 half back.

And yes, I miss the Frank Lord/Jimmy Inch sort up front. I also dismay at the now favoured wings hitting spaces without looking, rather than the picking out the man.

beesrus wrote:

I can go along with much of that appraisal. Wotton was converted into the holding central "third centre back", and the new alignments allowed him to take a role that was never possible with the old "half backs" who tended to play slightly wider. The rather short Johnny Hore was a classic no 4 half back.

And yes, I miss the Frank Lord/Jimmy Inch sort up front. I also dismay at the now favoured wings hitting spaces without looking, rather than the picking out the man.

Nostalgia for Jimmy Hinch,must be an internet first.

The role, not the proponent in this case.
It morphed through many different set ups , with the bannister/warboys Mariner/Rafferty duo thing that morphed into the athlete double pace thing of Roberts/Ellington, our own bulldozing Hayles/SEB and on into the boring single roving short ass Rooney crap. The Evans hold up style also deserves a mention as the skills needed were quite considerable despite his rather lumbering look.

Good to see the likes of Kane trying to resurrect a certain sort of play.
Anyone who hasn't witnessed a Frank Lord bullet header has missed a huge part of the history of the game.
Ho hum

I remember Frank Lord scoring with a scissors kick from 20 or so yards out, but your right about his bullet headers

beesrus wrote:

The role, not the proponent in this case.
It morphed through many different set ups , with the bannister/warboys Mariner/Rafferty duo thing that morphed into the athlete double pace thing of Roberts/Ellington, our own bulldozing Hayles/SEB and on into the boring single roving short ass Rooney crap. The Evans hold up style also deserves a mention as the skills needed were quite considerable despite his rather lumbering look.

Good to see the likes of Kane trying to resurrect a certain sort of play.
Anyone who hasn't witnessed a Frank Lord bullet header has missed a huge part of the history of the game.
Ho hum

Frank was playing when I first started going to Argyle, seem to remember that he got injured very badly and was never quite the same when he came back. Saw plenty of King Bickle, rather underrated IMHO,Derek Rickard was a nifty goalscorer for a year or two as well but again never the same after a serious injury. There's been plenty of different types over the years for sure, always liked Sims in a Triggeresque target man sort of way,Turner and McCarthy were surely two of the best elbow merchants ever to grace HP. Mariner was king though,an opinion confirmed by my late grandfather who was a supporter from 1920 onwards and saw Bowden,Jack,Black,Leslie,Cock and all the rest of them-Mariner was better than any of them according to him and I've no reason to disbelieve him.

Greenskin wrote:

beesrus wrote:

The role, not the proponent in this case.
It morphed through many different set ups , with the bannister/warboys Mariner/Rafferty duo thing that morphed into the athlete double pace thing of Roberts/Ellington, our own bulldozing Hayles/SEB and on into the boring single roving short ass Rooney crap. The Evans hold up style also deserves a mention as the skills needed were quite considerable despite his rather lumbering look.

Good to see the likes of Kane trying to resurrect a certain sort of play.
Anyone who hasn't witnessed a Frank Lord bullet header has missed a huge part of the history of the game.
Ho hum

Frank was playing when I first started going to Argyle, seem to remember that he got injured very badly and was never quite the same when he came back. Saw plenty of King Bickle, rather underrated IMHO,Derek Rickard was a nifty goalscorer for a year or two as well but again never the same after a serious injury. There's been plenty of different types over the years for sure, always liked Sims in a Triggeresque target man sort of way,Turner and McCarthy were surely two of the best elbow merchants ever to grace HP. Mariner was king though,an opinion confirmed by my late grandfather who was a supporter from 1920 onwards and saw Bowden,Jack,Black,Leslie,Cock and all the rest of them-Mariner was better than any of them according to him and I've no reason to disbelieve him.

Old Mike Bickle still follows local football. Aways watches Staddiscombe Rangers under 16's on Saturdays which my lad plays for and he's an uncle of one of the other lads

Greenskin wrote:

beesrus wrote:

I can go along with much of that appraisal. Wotton was converted into the holding central "third centre back", and the new alignments allowed him to take a role that was never possible with the old "half backs" who tended to play slightly wider. The rather short Johnny Hore was a classic no 4 half back.

And yes, I miss the Frank Lord/Jimmy Inch sort up front. I also dismay at the now favoured wings hitting spaces without looking, rather than the picking out the man.

Nostalgia for Jimmy Hinch,must be an internet first.

Haha yes myself and brother used to call him the Camel and his partner Keith "Muffer" Allen......seems a long time ago !

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

Rollo Tomasi wrote:

Just out of interest, why did sweepers go out of fashion?

They didn't.

Effectively they doubled in number and are now referred to as "centre backs" and what used to be known as a "centre half" is now a "holding midfielder".

We are, I think, actually regressing to something like the old (2-3-5) "wing half" days.

There's always 2 big guys to head the ball away but they "sweep" most of the time behind the real defenders who are the full backs and holding midfielder. The "false [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], "man-in-the-hole" (sometimes known as the "free man") then drop back to flood the midfield as a 5.

For "wing halves" read "left midfield" and "inside right" read, um, "fox in the box" and you get the idea.

The only thing we miss these days, Andy Carroll apart, is the big [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Robbie Turner figure up-front.

I'm not sure you can count two lumbering centre halves as being sweepers but I take your point. Teams seem to 'match up' nowadays with the away team adapting to the home team's formation.

I had in mind players like Beckanbauer or Baresi where they played behind the back four. I don't mean the Ferdinand or Hansen type but they were part of the back four.

They have to be good readers surely. I remember seeing Hoddle at Home Park playing behind the Swindon back four from where he ran the show. That must have been 20 years ago and I haven't seen it since.

These things come and go.

I think the game has moved on and the Sweeper tactic was useful because it freed the best player from specific marking duties and added a line of defence. It was all a bit reactive though and took players out of the midfield where games are won and lost. These days it's all "high press" and you need as many bodies in there as possible for it to work.

Another factor in the high press is the back four pushing up a) to condense play and b) to keep the opponent's attack far from goal and if there was a sweeper back there the striker would play on his shoulder and the easy attack on goal would always be on.

So unless you have an exceptional talent like a Hoddle or a Beckenbauer back there who can sit in the pocket and quarterback the ball about I think, as a tactic, it has been found out.

Much the same goes for the old 3CBs + wing backs thing. You don't see much of that these days either.

The sweeper was sussed by mobile players running from deep. Teams do try and keep high lines these days, or as Ted Tuckerman used to say, tight lines.
It all reflects the abilities of the players and with the advent of the serious physical athlete thing, allied to the huge improvement in individual defensive technique ( ie don't commit, just hold, mirror and watch), the tactics were bound to change.
Where would Mid Winter football be without old slewed farts, freed from their servitude for a few days, pontificating on the ebb and flow of their football memory. Sometimes nailing it, and sometimes high, wide and handsome.

My god, that Argyle Facebook  - "Plymouth Argyle Free Chat" -  and the comments from the result of yesterday are grating. The majority think it is ok that Argyle threw away a 3-1 lead to draw 3-3.  They must be the James Brent Fan Club or something like that.

Quotes of "a huge crowd, Argyle never do well on Boxing Day, entertainng game, remember where the club was a few years ago, all clubs throw away leads, the club has moved on etc etc". It is enough to put people off their evening meal, seriously.

I have replied to one poster (Nigel Bodnar) and clearly stated my beliefs. I expect to be slated on that Facebook forum and I am ready to defend what I said.

A reply to the comments i made on Facebook - Nigel Bodnar said :- And a fair point and i'm not going to disagree with that at all i want to see progress and be up where we belong all i'm pointing out is were in a bad way and mustn't forget how bad we deffo missed a trick last year and let it slip but let"s think we might not of had a club to watch thats where i'm coming from

A "Brent saved us" quote right there then. What should i reply with I wonder ?.



Wycombe manager celebrates large Home Park crowd. I bet he does, considering a majority went home a tad peed.

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While Adams complains of Wycombe tactics.

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