Argyle unlikely to win L2 title and main promotion rivals

Or, rather than having a fixated negative or positive POV than never assesses things, it's evidence of a constantly reflective open mind.

X Isle wrote:

I take your point SFD, but for me there are far too many if's, but's and maybe's in that 20/20 hindsight view on things.

I'd sooner look at the situation as is, than the situation as might have been.

Do you really think we couldn't have been promoted from a division with Paulton Rovers, St Neots and Hitchin Town in it?

OK let's look at facts.

2011 FA Cup KO by Stourbridge after we had held them 3-3 at home.
2012 Worst ever final league position in the club's entire history - could have been relegated on last day of the season..
2012 FA Cup KO by Dorchester - no replay needed this time.
2013 Equalled 2012 final league position
2014 Tony Wrathall re-appointed as a director.
2015 Humiliating defeat in the play-offs v Wycombe.
2016 Gutless defeat at Wembley v AFC Wimbledon.

We have not paid off the post-admin debt.

We have not improved Home Park in any way whatsoever.

The club has been asset-stripped and has nothing left to sell.

Fletcher: sacked.

Sheridan: driven out of the club.

Adams: under-funded and forced to choose from a threadbare squad.

I started a thread the other day: What has James Brent done for us?

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And nobody could come up with anything. Nobody. Not a suasage.

It depends where you ask the question SFD. Same question on PASOTI would get answers, the PASOTI narrative. On here though you'll largely just get the ATD narrative.

There's only a thin line in the middle, prepared to see some good and some bad.

Good i'd say is (albeit slow) team progress year on year and the re-establishment (albeit slow) of Argyle as a functioning football club from a financial basket case. The bad, i've covered, transparency and team funding going forwards now we've hit a pivotal crossroads.

Now, I accept all that'll be ridiculed but I recognise i'm in a tiny minority between two camps - see no evil and see no good.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

X Isle wrote:

I take your point SFD, but for me there are far too many if's, but's and maybe's in that 20/20 hindsight view on things.

I'd sooner look at the situation as is, than the situation as might have been.

Do you really think we couldn't have been promoted from a division with Paulton Rovers, St Neots and Hitchin Town in it?

OK let's look at facts.

2011 FA Cup KO by Stourbridge after we had held them 3-3 at home.
2012 Worst ever final league position in the club's entire history - could have been relegated on last day of the season..
2012 FA Cup KO by Dorchester - no replay needed this time.
2013 Equalled 2012 final league position
2014 Tony Wrathall re-appointed as a director.
2015 Humiliating defeat in the play-offs v Wycombe.
2016 Gutless defeat at Wembley v AFC Wimbledon.

We have not paid off the post-admin debt.

We have not improved Home Park in any way whatsoever.

The club has been asset-stripped and has nothing left to sell.

Fletcher: sacked.

Sheridan: driven out of the club.

Adams: under-funded and forced to choose from a threadbare squad.

I started a thread the other day: What has James Brent done for us?

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And nobody could come up with anything. Nobody. Not a suasage.

And I'd add X Isle's own failure - lack of transparency. Does anyone anywhere know how much the club owes to whom? It's an imperative so that we don't sleepwalk or are hoodwinked into administration anytime soon. Brent has form at placing businesses into admin (or at least happy that the decision is made for him) via his hotel empire. In fact, if I can find the quote I post it, but it seemed to be with a snigger that he declared it made his balance sheet look better when the bank took some of the properties off him.

But there has been no progress!

5 years of Division 4 football with a 6th to follow. No progress.

We've run out of money and had to go begging to Wrathall and PCC for loans.

The outstanding debt has not been meaningfully reduced.

There's been not a lick of fresh paint, other than that paid for by AFT, to be seen.

We have more directors on board for next season than players.

And, no, I couldn't have posted the question on Pasoti: I have some self-respect and wouldn't ever stoop so low. The sooner it is officially subsumed by pafc.co.uk the better. I might post on it then: at least it'd be honest rather than living the lie it currently is.

Like I say, a matter of perspective. If you see no evil it manifests itself as captain wankspasm, if you see no good it manifests itself as the equal and opposite extreme found over here.

It's not black or white, it's shades of grey to me.

OK... So apart from "he saved our club" and y-o-y p whilst remaining in the same division how have we progressed?

There must be something I'm missing because loadsapeople seem to be very pleased with Brent's stewardship.


Please enlighten me because I don't see it.

X Isle wrote:

I take your point SFD, but for me there are far too many if's, but's and maybe's in that 20/20 hindsight view on things.

I'd sooner look at the situation as is, than the situation as might have been.

No hindsight required. As soon as brent was given the seal of approval by the Windsor Boys, his intentions were clear.

Nool was however correct when he claimed, 'Ee's naaaat a property developer'.

Then there was the, 'There will be no walleted directors'.........just a couple to help with cash flow. And 'We [meaning us two goons] have the chance to build arrrrrrrrrr club'...........Forza Nerdy, boxed in stadium with a lighthouse but low enough so my mum still has her sea view. Units to benefit our real friend

X Isle wrote:

Like I say, a matter of perspective. If you see no evil it manifests itself as captain wankspasm, if you see no good it manifests itself as the equal and opposite extreme found over here.

It's not black or white, it's shades of grey to me.

You'll always see it differently to most people because your perspective changes as the situation does, AKA moving the goalposts. Us "negative posters" as we like to be known hit the nail on the head when Brent arrived, we predicted that he'd asset strip the club for his own benefit, we predicted he'd achieve no significant progress thought the leagues and he hasn't. Tbf even I didn't predict the shocking state of disrepair he'd allow HP to fall into but you can't be right about all things all the time. As for you and other avivas falling into line with us that's happened because you've been proved wrong, massively 100% wrong about Brent, no amount of reversing, backtracking or signatures will prove otherwise. Welcome to the good ship reality, it's taken five years but the coffee is being smelt all over now.

X Isle wrote:

It depends where you ask the question SFD. Same question on PASOTI would get answers, the PASOTI narrative. On here though you'll largely just get the ATD narrative.

There's only a thin line in the middle, prepared to see some good and some bad.

Good i'd say is (albeit slow) team progress year on year and the re-establishment (albeit slow) of Argyle as a functioning football club from a financial basket case. The bad, i've covered, transparency and team funding going forwards now we've hit a pivotal crossroads.

Now, I accept all that'll be ridiculed but I recognise i'm in a tiny minority between two camps - see no evil and see no good.

Year on year progress is worth shit all when it still hasn't delivered us promotion from the bottom tier of English league football. Not only that there's no clues as to whether further progress is likely next season, due to the slight inconvenience of us only having 4 players beyond June.

AD. You don't agree with my opinion, fair enough. I'm hardly shocked

You consider your opinion to always be right...right then, right now and right in the future. You take this position without feeling you need to reassess it periodically and without taking the time to seek out a wide variety of alternative opinions. Again, fair enough...it's not an approach i'd consider to be open minded or pragmatic but that's just my opinion...

...which i'm sure you'll disagree with too

I can see us either finishing lower mid-table or finishing comfortably in the automatics. Don't think we'll have an in-between season or finish in the play-offs.

Need the squad to be properly funded - await that one with more hope than expectation.

"Progress" would indicate we are building something. We're not - we are just replacing one set of journeymen pro's with another set of journeymen pro's. We are not seeing a team of youngsters develop into something special - either to benefit the team or the bank balance. The ground is rotting away with no realistic chance of being developed.

We have just taken 34,000 fans to Wembley with the likelihood that non of the "irregular" supporters will return next year.

Our "progress" is nothing deeper then finishing slightly higher in the bottom division then we did the previous year.

HHP progress?

Pavillions progress?

Civic Centre progress?

Grandstand progress?

School progress?

Oldway progress?

Presidents progress?

Pilgrims progress?

That is progress though Frank. Not fast enough for many I grant thee, but however slowly, we have done better year on year.

This thread is about our chances next season but, as usual, it's got stuck in a time warp that perpetually brings everything back to 2011.

The only "progress" we have made is that we have a playing and managing budget that means we should always be in a position to attract staff good enough to avoid having the likes of Fletcher leading us to the conference. But a Wembley hangover or a dressing room revolt could easily bring the house of cards down. Who would have thought Shiltons "Nearly Men" would have taken us to the unthinkable depths of Division 4 a year after that glorious season in 93?

3 players signed so far and a Wembley hangover. What are the chances we are going to "progress" next year (and what excuses will be used if we don't?)

It's not often I agree with SFD, but I do on this occasion - there has been no progress over the last 5 years. We remain in the fourth tier of the pyramid. Dress it up how you like, it doesn't matter whether we finish 4th or 20th, we have stayed where we are.

In football terms, progress has to be defined as playing in a higher division than the previous season.

Added to that, there seems to be nothing coming from HP about the future, no plan for a new stand, no maintenance of the ground, nothing that the average fan could possibly look at and sign up to.

Under Brent, the club is drifting aimlessly in the lower reaches of the football league. Great for the 'big fish in a small pond' supporters and great if you're a Windsor Boy/Deepthroater.

But to the average fan who probably would be attracted back to Home Park without too much persuasion, there is nothing.

X Isle wrote:

That is progress though Frank. Not fast enough for many I grant thee, but however slowly, we have done better year on year.

This thread is about our chances next season but, as usual, it's got stuck in a time warp that perpetually brings everything back to 2011.

No one is bring "everything back to 2011". Completely the oppposite, because we only have currently have 3 players under contract from the senior squad what they did last season or the 4 seasons before means zilch. We start again on 0 points with what will probably be a new squad.


Whilst we are still in the division, sadled with debt in a rotting ground we don't own with no looking interested in improving matters unless someone else is paying for it. There has been no progress.

I would say there's been a big regression in 2016.
Despite landing, on a recommend, the perfect manager for a club like Argyle, and a steaming start with some eye opening performances from Carey Jervis and Wylde, the club has fallen away alarmingly. No attempt was made to back the manager to stem the rot when it became quite apparent something wasn't right. I think it quite possible whatever ails the club inside took even the steam out of a runaway Argyle championship winning team, under the guidance of the best manager we've had since Holloway. That's not progress, and the worry must be the momentum of change has been lost, with torpour reasserting itself from deep within the club psyche.
It could even be argued that the periodic stroke of luck that visits clubs, that even Brent has picked up on in his short time as a football cognisant half a day a week, has been wasted. Just where is the next big wave going to come from ?

We disagree, so be it.

I'm with you on the last paragraph though Frank. This close season there's no hiding place for the board. Progression now depends on cold hard cash. Simon Hallett has put some money in, we'll see how much of that finds it's way to the bigger and better squad we need.

I,like you, have my doubts.

Get real. Xisle. I sometimes wonder if you follow anything with any great depth.  Hallet's money is all to do with buying a property asset/paying down the football creditor bullet payment, despite public utterance.

The game WILL unravel when in one year, maybe three years, the stadium is transferred away from PAFC to private hands, leaving the club as permanent tenants of private individual owners. And it will all be trumpeted as making the club debt free by releasing it's dues to Brent. It's classic asset stripping.

Amsterdamage wrote:

X Isle wrote:

Like I say, a matter of perspective. If you see no evil it manifests itself as captain wankspasm, if you see no good it manifests itself as the equal and opposite extreme found over here.

It's not black or white, it's shades of grey to me.

You'll always see it differently to most people because your perspective changes as the situation does, AKA moving the goalposts. Us "negative posters" as we like to be known hit the nail on the head when Brent arrived, we predicted that he'd asset strip the club for his own benefit, we predicted he'd achieve no significant progress thought the leagues and he hasn't. Tbf even I didn't predict the shocking state of disrepair he'd allow HP to fall into but you can't be right about all things all the time. As for you and other avivas falling into line with us that's happened because you've been proved wrong, massively 100% wrong about Brent, no amount of reversing, backtracking or signatures will prove otherwise. Welcome to the good ship reality, it's taken five years but the coffee is being smelt all over now.

well said ammy

Dougie wrote:

HHP progress?

Pavillions progress?

Civic Centre progress?

Grandstand progress?

School progress?

Oldway progress?

Presidents progress?

Pilgrims progress?

which in all adds up to F#@K all progress

X Isle wrote:

AD. You don't agree with my opinion, fair enough. I'm hardly shocked

You consider your opinion to always be right...right then, right now and right in the future. You take this position without feeling you need to reassess it periodically and without taking the time to seek out a wide variety of alternative opinions. Again, fair enough...it's not an approach i'd consider to be open minded or pragmatic but that's just my opinion...

...which i'm sure you'll disagree with too

When the facts change then it is only reasonable to re-assess one's opinions with the new facts informing a new opinion.

What facts have changed?

All we can do is read the lea leaves regarding the club's financial position because the club flatly refuses to publish accounts. There may well be nothing to hide but the club is behaving as if it is as guilty as sin.

And then every now and then a little bombshell emerges: Wrathall, no more money to make new loans, Hallett etc And when it does the only conclusion is that the "being run sustainably" thing (which unlike most on here I am all for) simply isn't happening.

Our average home attendances have actually grown year-on-year for 5 whole years. In the last year it has surged forward by a whopping 1,421!!

The club's income must be thriving. No other way of looking at it. And yet we have struggled all year with a threadbare squad. The money is not being spent on the pitch or the stadium or the team and it is not being spent significantly eating into our historic debts - so where the bloody hell is our money going?

The Sussex Sage still coming out with his Trust in Jimmy, sustainable progress nonsense we are starting our sixth season of fourth division crap under the Brentmare, though to be fair to Sussex, like me he never goes to many games prefering to coach the internet fans to be more supportive!