IF

Does anyone genuinely feel that IF we do miss out on promotion this season for whatever reason that Brent will back Sheridan or whoever is in charge with investments in the team to guarantee it next season so we have a strong squad and not just a strong 11.

or IF we do manage to win promotion that he will invest the extra money in strengthen the current squad so we have more than a strong chance of staying up.

Doubt it'll be any different Angry. It'd be interesting to find out what their forecast attendance would be, that they'd largely base any budget on, should we fail to achieve promotion or if we were to be playing next season in League One. Maybe the AFT could ask at their next meeting with Martyn.

If Brent wants to sale the club, surely a promotion winning side will help.

If Argyle somehow get promoted via the POs this season, a sustainable spell in League One will enhance the club to potential buyers.

If Argyle do not go up this season, well, it is back to square one.

You can never guarantee promotion no matter who the chairman, manager, players are. Look at Pompey who have gates of 15K, have made a small profit and are still not safe from the drop.

JS said ''play-offs minimum'' so finishing top 7 is ''achieved'' and JB will not change the manager. He certainly won't change if we go up but I'm sure he will increase the war chest on the back of getting rid of some of the players who would struggle in Lge 1 and the forecast increased revenue that Martin Starnes will brief him about. Of course, if we go up, then the club will look better for any interested parties and investment.
My hunch? JS will leave for a northern club before next season whatever the outcome. At some stage I can see Gary Johnson in the seat.

tigertony wrote:

You can never guarantee promotion no matter who the chairman, manager, players are. Look at Pompey who have gates of 15K, have made a small profit and are still not safe from the drop.

JS said ''play-offs minimum'' so finishing top 7 is ''achieved'' and JB will not change the manager. He certainly won't change if we go up but I'm sure he will increase the war chest on the back of getting rid of some of the players who would struggle in Lge 1 and the forecast increased revenue that Martin Starnes will brief him about. Of course, if we go up, then the club will look better for any interested parties and investment.
My hunch? JS will leave for a northern club before next season whatever the outcome. At some stage I can see Gary Johnson in the seat.

We will hold you to that quote..

I can see John Sheridan resigning more than I can see James Brent sacking him.

In answer to the OP's other question, no, I don't see a whole heap more financial backing in either division. I can live with that so long as the outstanding debts are cleared and the spectre of a second administration is finally vanquished.

[quote="tigertony"]You can never guarantee promotion no matter who the chairman, manager, players are. Look at Pompey who have gates of 15K, have made a small profit and are still not safe from the drop.

For the first year out of admin they are doing alright.

When we went up under Luggy Mk 1 to the Champs the gate increased a lot because it was Wolves not Wrexham and Coventry not Cambridge and Sunderland not Shrewsbury. Promotion this season in to Lge 1 means Fleetwood not Morecombe and Crawley not Carlisle! How much would the gates increase if we were mid table but doing OK? 1000? 2K? 500?
Lets crack the next 6 weeks first.

tigertony wrote:

When we went up under Luggy Mk 1 to the Champs the gate increased a lot because it was Wolves not Wrexham and Coventry not Cambridge and Sunderland not Shrewsbury. Promotion this season in to Lge 1 means Fleetwood not Morecombe and Crawley not Carlisle! How much would the gates increase if we were mid table but doing OK? 1000? 2K? 500?
Lets crack the next 6 weeks first.

Tough to say. When we were last dithering about in the 4th tier we averaged 5k, we're now averaging 6.5/7k in that division. The title winning side of '02 saw an average crowd of just under 9k, but that was a magnificent promotion season - not an uncertain and inconsistent play off potential scrape. The core fan base has risen by 2k, so I think 9k would be the minimum average attendance expectation of a League One Plymouth Argyle - potentially asking for a thousand or two more wouldn't be unreasonable, especially if we did go up in front of 30+ thousand janners at Wembley.

SwimWithTheTide wrote:

tigertony wrote:

When we went up under Luggy Mk 1 to the Champs the gate increased a lot because it was Wolves not Wrexham and Coventry not Cambridge and Sunderland not Shrewsbury. Promotion this season in to Lge 1 means Fleetwood not Morecombe and Crawley not Carlisle! How much would the gates increase if we were mid table but doing OK? 1000? 2K? 500?
Lets crack the next 6 weeks first.

Tough to say. When we were last dithering about in the 4th tier we averaged 5k, we're now averaging 6.5/7k in that division. The title winning side of '02 saw an average crowd of just under 9k, but that was a magnificent promotion season - not an uncertain and inconsistent play off potential scrape. The core fan base has risen by 2k, so I think 9k would be the minimum average attendance expectation of a League One Plymouth Argyle - potentially asking for a thousand or two more wouldn't be unreasonable, especially if we did go up in front of 30+ thousand janners at Wembley.

Nothing like it really Sam. The attendance figures for our previous spell in the 4th division didn't include all the absent season ticket holders that are included now. I would hazard a guess that 1,200 would be nearer the mark. The core fan base has increased a bit yes after the 2 promotions and a spell in the CCC but if we went up and were round about mid table or just below I would be surprised if we added more than a thousand to this years figures and extremely surprised if we averaged as much as 8,000 without a promotion push. There are no big names coming down from the 2nd division, the only "name" teams we could meet next season in the 3rd division would be Coventry and maybe Sheff Utd but they would be less of a pull than Exeter and probably Pompey. Unless we were close to the top I couldn't see a 5 figure attendance next season in League 1.

It's more about the feelgood factor of a winning team, a 'finished' stadium and belief in the ownership of the club.

Nothing much will change attendance wise for Argyle, or any other city club with our lack of top flight exposure, in either of the two bottom divisions, unless there is success and belief, not inconsistency and buckets.

Look at the attendance history of the previous, largest city club never to have played top flight. Hull's attendance figures historically, almost exactly mirror ours like for like.

'Lift off' was achieved through their new stadium and cemented by promotion to the  PL. The feelgood factor, not by anything else. No amount of appealing to stay away fans will make the slightest difference.

Sorry for the mess below. You can search historical attendance figures here :

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Hull City AFC
Scoreboard League FA Cup League Cup
Champion 0 Total years 98 Winner 0 Winner 0
# 2 0 @ Level 1 3 Finalist 1 Finalist 0
# 3 0 @ Level 2 56 Semis 2 Semis 0
Highest position 16 @ Level 3 29 Quarter 6 Quarter 0
@ Level 4 10 5 13 4 4
Attendance Year 4 25 3 15
1889 - 1939 11.302 1927 3 67 2 34
1947 - 1985 37.319 1950 Last win Champion FA Cup League Cup
1986 - now 24.816 2009 Year : --- --- ---
Year      League       Attendance   FA Cup   League Cup      Other Cups
# Level Pos Average Pos Round Round Cup Round
2014 16 1 16 24.117 23 Final 4
2013 2 2 22 17.369 31 4 2
2012 8 2 28 18.790 30 4 1
2011 11 2 31 21.169 26 3 2
2010 19 1 19 24.390 20 3 3
2009 17 1 17 24.816 17 QF 2
2008 3 2 23 18.025 33 3 3
2007 21 2 41 18.758 32 3 3
2006 18 2 38 19.841 32 3 1
2005 2 3 46 18.025 31 3 1 AMC
2004 2 4 70 16.847 30 1 1 AMC
2003 13 4 81 12.843 39 1 1 AMC
2002 11 4 79 9.506 44 2 2 AMC QF
2001 6 4 74 6.684 51 1 1 AMC
2000 14 4 82 5.736 59 3 1 AMC
1999 21 4 89 6.051 55 3 2 AMC
1998 22 4 90 4.684 66 1 3 AMC
1997 17 4 85 3.413 74 2 1 AMC
1996 24 3 68 3.803 69 1 2 AMC
1995 8 3 54 4.721 61 1 1 AMC
1994 9 3 55 5.943 56 2 1 AMC
1993 20 3 66 4.672 66 2 1 AMC
1992 14 3 60 4.115 64 3 2 AMC
1991 24 2 44 6.165 50 3 3 FMC
1990 14 2 34 6.518 47 3 1 FMC
1989 21 2 41 6.666 46 5 2 FMC
1988 15 2 36 8.135 40 3 2
1987 14 2 36 6.674 43 5 3
1986 6 2 28 7.672 32 4 2 FMC SF
1985 3 3 47 7.550 34 3 2
1984 4 3 48 8.135 37 2 1 AMC Final
1983 2 4 70 6.586 46 1 1
1982 8 4 76 3.993 71 3 1
1981 24 3 68 4.319 67 4 1
1980 20 3 64 5.986 58 1 1
1979 8 3 52 5.238 60 2 1
1978 22 2 44 6.835 54 3 4
1977 14 2 36 7.924 48 3 2
1976 14 2 36 6.901 53 4 4
1975 8 2 30 8.573 48 3 2
1974 9 2 31 8.216 48 3 4
1973 13 2 35 9.233 44 5 3
1972 12 2 34 13.972 35 5 2
1971 5 2 27 19.737 27 QF 2
1970 13 2 35 11.230 45 3 3
1969 11 2 33 14.216 38 3 2
1968 17 2 39 15.626 34 3 2
1967 12 2 34 24.276 20 3 1
1966 1 3 45 22.828 14 QF 2
1965 4 3 48 14.629 36 2 2
1964 8 3 52 8.536 57 3 3
1963 10 3 54 7.350 67 3 3
1962 10 3 54 6.887 67 2 3
1961 11 3 55 8.434 61 3 1
1960 21 2 43 15.499 40 3
1959 2 3 46 14.375 43 1
1958 5 3N 53 10.973 57 4
1957 8 3N 59 12.056 50 3
1956 22 2 44 15.419 44 3
1955 19 2 41 20.285 35 3
1954 15 2 37 20.995 31 5
1953 18 2 40 25.918 24 4
1952

swampy wrote:

SwimWithTheTide wrote:

tigertony wrote:

When we went up under Luggy Mk 1 to the Champs the gate increased a lot because it was Wolves not Wrexham and Coventry not Cambridge and Sunderland not Shrewsbury. Promotion this season in to Lge 1 means Fleetwood not Morecombe and Crawley not Carlisle! How much would the gates increase if we were mid table but doing OK? 1000? 2K? 500?
Lets crack the next 6 weeks first.

Tough to say. When we were last dithering about in the 4th tier we averaged 5k, we're now averaging 6.5/7k in that division. The title winning side of '02 saw an average crowd of just under 9k, but that was a magnificent promotion season - not an uncertain and inconsistent play off potential scrape. The core fan base has risen by 2k, so I think 9k would be the minimum average attendance expectation of a League One Plymouth Argyle - potentially asking for a thousand or two more wouldn't be unreasonable, especially if we did go up in front of 30+ thousand janners at Wembley.

Nothing like it really Sam. The attendance figures for our previous spell in the 4th division didn't include all the absent season ticket holders that are included now. I would hazard a guess that 1,200 would be nearer the mark. The core fan base has increased a bit yes after the 2 promotions and a spell in the CCC but if we went up and were round about mid table or just below I would be surprised if we added more than a thousand to this years figures and extremely surprised if we averaged as much as 8,000 without a promotion push. There are no big names coming down from the 2nd division, the only "name" teams we could meet next season in the 3rd division would be Coventry and maybe Sheff Utd but they would be less of a pull than Exeter and probably Pompey. Unless we were close to the top I couldn't see a 5 figure attendance next season in League 1.

League One isn't going to be unattractive next season, and lets not forget that its a more historically rightful place for us to be - just as much as the second tier. Plenty of decent sized sides will be battling it out in the third division, Peterborough, Barnsley, Coventry, Two of either Swindon, Sheffield or McFranchise, plus likely Milwall, Wigan and Blackpool - maybe even Fulham or Rotherham. Its not the minnow division of League Two.

Can you say for absolute certain that non attending ST holders weren't counted in the attendance figures? And in fairness to count non attending ST holders allows us a far greater understanding of where our budget should likely stand - don't forget they've already coughed up the money and as far as football as a business goes these days, that's all that matters. We averaged just under 9k last time we were promoted to the division and just over 8 and half last time we briefly were relegated from it. I'd be amazed if we didn't average around 9-9.5k if we did go up. Of course that'd probably mean a few 8k attendances buoyed by a few 11.5kers. The average away attendance would probably help also, rising from 45 to 450 perhaps.

Argyle struggling in DIV 1 would garner no more support than currently enjoyed.

Winning football, belief in the ownership and ambitious stadia, are the catalyst for a groundswell of support, not struggling in the 3rd tier.

Yes, yes Tring we ALL get it. If Argyle built a whopping big cock enhancing stadium and had a team that pissed the division then people would turn up. Being relegated in the third division last time we got 8.6k, midtable got 9k, comparing those two recent periods with the attendance of today, I don't think 9k as a minimum expectation would be unreasonable.

SwimWithTheTide wrote:

Yes, yes Tring we ALL get it. If Argyle built a whopping big cock enhancing stadium and had a team that pissed the division then people would turn up. Being relegated in the third division last time we got 8.6k, midtable got 9k, comparing those two recent periods with the attendance of today, I don't think 9k as a minimum expectation would be unreasonable.

2004/5 we averaged over 16k following two promotions in three seasons.................. that takes a while to erode completely. Much more of brent and co and the likely struggle to gain promotion from the basement, or trying to stave off relegation in the 3rd tier, will imo not result in any increase on the current assortment of Avivas, wannabes and the terminally addicted.
Why would anyone else be interested ? I know that's difficult for some to understand but Plymouth is no different to anywhere else.

If the ownership/stadium/ are uninspiring, only a winning team can drag a few more through the turnstyles.

Even that tw@t director who has been around long enough to know better, keeps on baying at the wider public to turn up. It doesn't work like that at any club with our history.

Enjoy the ride.

SwimWithTheTide wrote:

swampy wrote:

SwimWithTheTide wrote:

tigertony wrote:

When we went up under Luggy Mk 1 to the Champs the gate increased a lot because it was Wolves not Wrexham and Coventry not Cambridge and Sunderland not Shrewsbury. Promotion this season in to Lge 1 means Fleetwood not Morecombe and Crawley not Carlisle! How much would the gates increase if we were mid table but doing OK? 1000? 2K? 500?
Lets crack the next 6 weeks first.

Tough to say. When we were last dithering about in the 4th tier we averaged 5k, we're now averaging 6.5/7k in that division. The title winning side of '02 saw an average crowd of just under 9k, but that was a magnificent promotion season - not an uncertain and inconsistent play off potential scrape. The core fan base has risen by 2k, so I think 9k would be the minimum average attendance expectation of a League One Plymouth Argyle - potentially asking for a thousand or two more wouldn't be unreasonable, especially if we did go up in front of 30+ thousand janners at Wembley.

Nothing like it really Sam. The attendance figures for our previous spell in the 4th division didn't include all the absent season ticket holders that are included now. I would hazard a guess that 1,200 would be nearer the mark. The core fan base has increased a bit yes after the 2 promotions and a spell in the CCC but if we went up and were round about mid table or just below I would be surprised if we added more than a thousand to this years figures and extremely surprised if we averaged as much as 8,000 without a promotion push. There are no big names coming down from the 2nd division, the only "name" teams we could meet next season in the 3rd division would be Coventry and maybe Sheff Utd but they would be less of a pull than Exeter and probably Pompey. Unless we were close to the top I couldn't see a 5 figure attendance next season in League 1.

League One isn't going to be unattractive next season, and lets not forget that its a more historically rightful place for us to be - just as much as the second tier. Plenty of decent sized sides will be battling it out in the third division, Peterborough, Barnsley, Coventry, Two of either Swindon, Sheffield or McFranchise, plus likely Milwall, Wigan and Blackpool - maybe even Fulham or Rotherham. Its not the minnow division of League Two.

Can you say for absolute certain that non attending ST holders weren't counted in the attendance figures? And in fairness to count non attending ST holders allows us a far greater understanding of where our budget should likely stand - don't forget they've already coughed up the money and as far as football as a business goes these days, that's all that matters. We averaged just under 9k last time we were promoted to the division and just over 8 and half last time we briefly were relegated from it. I'd be amazed if we didn't average around 9-9.5k if we did go up. Of course that'd probably mean a few 8k attendances buoyed by a few 11.5kers. The average away attendance would probably help also, rising from 45 to 450 perhaps.

Yes Sam I can say with certainty that non attending ticket holders were not included until the last two seasons. I don't see a single one of the clubs you mention attracting 10,000 to Home Park unless we were challenging in the top 6. Last time we went up it was on the back of a record breaking season in a relatively new stadium where we had been involved in a neck and neck race with Luton virtually all season and then hovered around the top 6 or 7 most of the season. Millwall, Blackpool and Wigan are not names that will get the Plymouth public off their arses in large numbers nor are Barnsley, MK Dons and Peterborough. Remember we have lost fixtures against Pompey and Exeter who would both bring more away fans than those and also stir the Plymouth into action more. The likes of Fleetwood, Crawley, Colchester etc. will be no more attractive opposition than Accy or Morecambe. I think you are being optimistic in thinking we will top the 10,000 barrier unless we have a bank holiday fixture against one of the better teams. Mid to lower mid table I think would see us averaging barely 8,000. Let's get there first though.

Tringreen wrote:

SwimWithTheTide wrote:

Yes, yes Tring we ALL get it. If Argyle built a whopping big cock enhancing stadium and had a team that pissed the division then people would turn up. Being relegated in the third division last time we got 8.6k, midtable got 9k, comparing those two recent periods with the attendance of today, I don't think 9k as a minimum expectation would be unreasonable.

2004/5 we averaged over 16k following two promotions in three seasons.................. that takes a while to erode completely. Much more of brent and co and the likely struggle to gain promotion from the basement, or trying to stave off relegation in the 3rd tier, will imo not result in any increase on the current assortment of Avivas, wannabes and the terminally addicted.
Why would anyone else be interested ? I know that's difficult for some to understand but Plymouth is no different to anywhere else.

If the ownership/stadium/ are uninspiring, only a winning team can drag a few more through the turnstyles.

Even that tw@t director who has been around long enough to know better, keeps on baying at the wider public to turn up. It doesn't work like that at any club with our history.

Enjoy the ride.

I want to pick up on this bit: "2004/5 we averaged over 16k".

It is a much-quoted statistic and it is also a very mis-interpreted value. For starters Brent latched on to it to justify the 17k capacity ("more than enough" etc).

I'd propose that 16k is astonishingly high given that the lowest possible attendance was 0 and the highest about 20k. We managed to achieve a stadium that was 80% full on average. When you consider that about 2500 seats were set aside for away fans who rarely sold out their allocation that is pretty good.

There were occasions when every ticket was sold. That means that more could have been. For every extra 2300 in attendance on any single occasion the season average would have bumped up by 100. The relatively low upper limit reduced what the average might have been.

For instance how many Leeds fans (our highest attendance if memory serves) could we have got in? 5k? And how many more tickets could have been sold to home fans? We'll never know but it is certain that some could have been. A 25k attendance for that game would not have been impossible and might have been exceded.

And how many tickets could we have sold for that QPR game? I'd suggest that 40k isn't unreasonable. That would have bumped that season average up a bit.

Build it and they will come? No. Not necessarily but don't build it and they can't as sure as night follows day.

Getting promoted this year, we'll lose the derby matches vs Exeter, plus the 'draw' of Pompey.

Could the average go down?

I can only see a marginal increase unless we did really well in League 1. With no Pompey or Exeter away support a couple of teams might replace that, but Fleetwood, Crawley, Colchester and a few others would have negligible away support so the rest might give us an extra few thousand fans over the course of a season or about 150 a game on average perhaps. Ref SFD's point about the 16,400 average in our first season in the C.C.C: At that time I believe we sold close to 10,000 season tickets. If we were generous and said those 10,000 attended an average of 90% of home games that season, using today's formula of including the non attendees our "official" average then would have been 17,500 or nearer 18,000 probably.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

Tringreen wrote:

SwimWithTheTide wrote:

Yes, yes Tring we ALL get it. If Argyle built a whopping big cock enhancing stadium and had a team that pissed the division then people would turn up. Being relegated in the third division last time we got 8.6k, midtable got 9k, comparing those two recent periods with the attendance of today, I don't think 9k as a minimum expectation would be unreasonable.

2004/5 we averaged over 16k following two promotions in three seasons.................. that takes a while to erode completely. Much more of brent and co and the likely struggle to gain promotion from the basement, or trying to stave off relegation in the 3rd tier, will imo not result in any increase on the current assortment of Avivas, wannabes and the terminally addicted.
Why would anyone else be interested ? I know that's difficult for some to understand but Plymouth is no different to anywhere else.

If the ownership/stadium/ are uninspiring, only a winning team can drag a few more through the turnstyles.

Even that tw@t director who has been around long enough to know better, keeps on baying at the wider public to turn up. It doesn't work like that at any club with our history.

Enjoy the ride.

I want to pick up on this bit: "2004/5 we averaged over 16k".

It is a much-quoted statistic and it is also a very mis-interpreted value. For starters Brent latched on to it to justify the 17k capacity ("more than enough" etc).

I'd propose that 16k is astonishingly high given that the lowest possible attendance was 0 and the highest about 20k. We managed to achieve a stadium that was 80% full on average. When you consider that about 2500 seats were set aside for away fans who rarely sold out their allocation that is pretty good.

There were occasions when every ticket was sold. That means that more could have been. For every extra 2300 in attendance on any single occasion the season average would have bumped up by 100. The relatively low upper limit reduced what the average might have been.

For instance how many Leeds fans (our highest attendance if memory serves) could we have got in? 5k? And how many more tickets could have been sold to home fans? We'll never know but it is certain that some could have been. A 25k attendance for that game would not have been impossible and might have been exceded.

And how many tickets could we have sold for that QPR game? I'd suggest that 40k isn't unreasonable. That would have bumped that season average up a bit.

Build it and they will come? No. Not necessarily but don't build it and they can't as sure as night follows day.

Absolutely . The effect of a 'new' or well finished / ambitious looking stadium, is clear. There are others such as Reading, Swansea, Brighton etc but Hull City, with a league status and attendance history so similar to ours, shows the impact of such a statement of intent.
All I'm trying to point out is that without the new or improved stadium impact, the potential fanbase does not awaken fully. Had the Luggy years coincided with an impressive grandstand and function facilities taking the ground capacity up to 25k like the KC, there would have been belief in the club for the first time ever. Not the 'Same old Argo' feeling passed from generation to generation.

'Build it or forget it' is the way I view it.

I agree with Tring completely, the thing that will get the punters back to hp is AMBITION, a new proper Grandstand not some shite small horrible ministand, a promotion budget with an enthusiastic manager and proper owner with a real board of directors! Throw the chariteeeeee buckets away and get the club looking focused and proffessinal ..... until then we will remain fourth division nomarks!

Whilst JB is still here you will only see this previous st holder who never missed a game at HP about 4 times a year no matter which league we are in, me Suffs and Throbs united.

sufferedsince 68 wrote:

I agree with Tring completely, the thing that will get the punters back to hp is AMBITION, a new proper Grandstand not some shite small horrible ministand, a promotion budget with an enthusiastic manager and proper owner with a real board of directors! Throw the chariteeeeee buckets away and get the club looking focused and proffessinal ..... until then we will remain fourth division nomarks!

Reality is that we still have Brent sitting in the directors box, and the attitude of "same old Argo" still pervades a high percentage of the fanbase.
Has anyone heard Brent say this season we are going for promotion and I will back the manager to achieve this. No -he gives every indication that he is content to keep the whole thing just ticking over.
Hardly the stuff to create and foster ambition in the fanbase!
Hope we go up of course, but hard to see Argyle flourishing in a higher league the way the club is configured.
GREEN ARMEEEE!

Sheridan should not be in a job if he fails to finish in the top 7 with this squad.

The fact Exeter are level on points with us despite losing their best player in January, generating £2million and having a transfer embargo throughout pre season just about says it all for me.

Absolutely embarrassing.