The (Not so) Great Debate on Brent's Herald

Should Tyler Harvey get another chance as a striker at Plymouth Argyle?

So what do we all think on this subject? My view is much like with Luke Young, he may have to leave in order to start producing the ability many say he has.

Na he's a lost cause. John Sheridan has ruined him.. Not surprising after his past form with our youngsters.

Like who Josh? Luke Young after a very bright start is not exactly pulling up trees at Torquay who are barely mid table in the Conference. Richards has had a fair crack of the whip at a level a couple of leagues below us in Northern Ireland and done OK, no more. Lecointe has been plagued by injuries, he didn't ruin him. Who exactly has he ruined?

swampy wrote:

Like who Josh? Luke Young after a very bright start is not exactly pulling up trees at Torquay who are barely mid table in the Conference. Richards has had a fair crack of the whip at a level a couple of leagues below us in Northern Ireland and done OK, no more. Lecointe has been plagued by injuries, he didn't ruin him. Who exactly has he ruined?

Worth mentioning Richards is now back at the club and playing in he U21 development game against Pompey today at home park.

Shame about Le Cointe he always had something in my eyes, would have been good up front alongside Reuben, is he really fecked?

Iggy wrote:

Shame about Le Cointe he always had something in my eyes, would have been good up front alongside Reuben, is he really fecked?

i would say he will be forced into retirement at pro level in the summer. which is a great shame but i never known any athlete to make a full recovery and play at the same level after two major knee injuries in such a short space of time and to the same knee.
He will never have the same strength and flexibility in that knee ever so he will be prone to more cruicate injuries as a result as he is young he is better calling it quits now before he ends up a total wreck.

Josh Pope wrote:

Na he's a lost cause. John Sheridan has ruined him.. Not surprising after his past form with our youngsters.

What utter tosh.
I'm not Sheridan's greatest fan but blaming Sheridan for Harvey not coming good is Ludicrous.
As previusly highlighted Young inst exactly pulling trees up at Torquay, Is that Sheridan's fault as well?

If he had anything then Forest would have snapped him up.
No smoke without fire.

Punchdrunk wrote:

Josh Pope wrote:

Na he's a lost cause. John Sheridan has ruined him.. Not surprising after his past form with our youngsters.

What utter tosh.
I'm not Sheridan's greatest fan but blaming Sheridan for Harvey not coming good is Ludicrous.
As previusly highlighted Young inst exactly pulling trees up at Torquay, Is that Sheridan's fault as well?

If he had anything then Forest would have snapped him up.
No smoke without fire.

Striker into midfielder??

I wouldn't exactly call that confidence building!

Remind us of the longest run of 1st team starts he has had under shezza?

Ok so lets jeopardise the whole play off campaign just to give the boy some game time where he may or more likely may not come good.

Good to see Argyle owe the lad a playing career.

Harvey did really well today. Unlike Marvin or Thomas I must say.

What's this past form with the youngsters you refer to Josh?

Josh Pope wrote:

Harvey did really well today. Unlike Marvin or Thomas I must say.

Is this the same player that has been totally ruined by Shezza ?

Sheridan does give youth a chance. Bentley being the latest. Harvey was kept on when many thought he would be let go last summer and Young being given a contract so he must see something in Harvey to do that. Not to mention Lecointe was given a new 12 month contract after missing a year with the knee injury to give him a chance to show what he can do and to earn a longer deal. Not many managers would do that with money being very tight.
Also worth mentioning Sheridan was a youth team manager at Oldham where many made the grade there.

The problem is with youth not cracking into the starting 11 or featuring more on match days is the sheer lack of U21 development games aka reserves.
One game every 2 months is not enough to give First year pros or YTS players who are in that years pick to earn a pro contract in May the opportunity to play/learn/develop and show what they can do and more importantly keeping fit so when the call comes they can make the most of it.

Having the likes of Allen and Bentley sit on the bench and never play and then play them after a very long period of inactivity is not going to have an impact that it could have if they where kept active and fit playing reserve games more often.

Mind you, this could also be the case for a few in the first team squad like Thomas, Morgan, Banton, Bittner, Norburn for example who arent playing as much too. i'm sure they would benefit more from playing than sitting and waiting.

I hope John Sheridan addresses this for next season and has our reserves more active then they are now. We dont have to play a full 46 games a season schedule but 2-3 games a month would do.

Harvey needs game time. Harvey won't get game time here. Harvey has great potential and should have a long-term future here.

Simple answer really- give him a new deal and then immediately loan him out. With recall clauses if needs be.

I think along with young Josh perhaps you have been brought up on a diet of league 2 crap when judging some of these youngsters. This club should be looking at the upper reaches of league 1 as a minimum and the likes of Young and Harvey aren't fit for purpose unfortunately if we hope to get there anytime soon.

GreenSam wrote:

Harvey needs game time. Harvey won't get game time here. Harvey has great potential and should have a long-term future here.

Simple answer really- give him a new deal and then immediately loan him out. With recall clauses if needs be.

Who would take him though. For any loan like to be of real benefit it would have to a league 2/ conference team unlike in previous years when young players where sent to sunday clubs like bideford to play.

Angry wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

Harvey needs game time. Harvey won't get game time here. Harvey has great potential and should have a long-term future here.

Simple answer really- give him a new deal and then immediately loan him out. With recall clauses if needs be.

Who would take him though. For any loan like to be of real benefit it would have to a league 2/ conference team unlike in previous years when young players where sent to sunday clubs like bideford to play.

Would be surprised if a conference team somewhere along the line wouldn't be interested in a loan deal, if not a low end league two side.

swampy wrote:

I think along with young Josh perhaps you have been brought up on a diet of league 2 crap when judging some of these youngsters. This club should be looking at the upper reaches of league 1 as a minimum and the likes of Young and Harvey aren't fit for purpose unfortunately if we hope to get there anytime soon.

Say things like that if it helps yourself believe them, but that doesn't, and won't, make it true.

The sort of thing you've just said is the prime example of the problem English youngsters face. No, neither of the two are blessed with the physicality of Neal Trotman or the flailing limbs of Marvin Morgan, but both are blessed with something we don't tend to appreciate - technical ability. That's not to say people don't find it important, more we don't have the patience for it to really seek through into football matches.

I'll briefly go over Young first. He was and would be the best passer at the club if he was still here. He was the best free-kick taker we had and though his corners weren't always great, he still had the ability to take them better than anyone else. I don't buy the argument that he was anonymous during games it's just people notice playmakers less because they're often not driving forwards, showing off fancy skills or making last ditch tackles to save the team. Alongside someone like Cox, and not Hourihane, it would have been different. Mind you, CH and LY would have been fantastic next to Cox because he compliments every type of central midfielder basically.

Young in general had a decent season last year. In fact, the only poor times he had was when the whole team was playing badly in around March time. Even on off days he'd still find that killer 40 yard pass to spray the ball around. He was technically gifted and not the slowest either. Ask any Torquay fan who the only class player in an average Conference side is and they'll tell you it's Youngy. He's not scoring as many goals now but that doesn't mean he isn't playing well. Do you really think it's any wonder that Championship and decent League 1 sides are interested in him? I don't.

Harvey is a different one. He's had much less of a chance but on the times he has played he's done mostly well I think. The problem he suffers is of the competition in his area and the fact he gets dropped after one poor game. Take Exeter, an excellent performance and a poor-ish game the next (but the whole team were crap) and he's the one who gets dropped. Newport away last season, he's class, a sort of hit and miss game vs Oxford and he's dropped. A very poor team performance vs Fylde, and he's dropped. How is the lad ever supposed to develop any sort of consistency or develop himself when he's played like that and then dropped for another month. What's the point? Are Reuben or Lewi dropped after a poor game? Like hell they are. The lack of U21 games doesn't help but even that's not the right level of opposition for him (but he was stand-out good today for the record).

Harvey is even better technically. His set pieces are often good, scored a cracker of a free-kick today and the one vs Exeter was stunning. He's quick and skilful but obviously a little bit weaker. Not that this matters, because if you play him in the no10 role and give him freedom to roam then he'll avoid the physicality and drive the team forwards. He is class and I don't care what people say. I watched him a lot as a younger player and no, I'm not head scout at Man United but it's not hard to realise when a player has enormous potential.

Frankly, it IS John Sheridan that is the problem. Firstly for his odd releasing of Luke Young, second for his insistence that McHugh was better than Purrington at left back and now for not giving Harvey a chance. I doubt we'll ever see Bentley again, and who knows what'll happen to Allen and Lane. Lane is clearly destined for bright things and Allen needs a loan move to get him improving. Do you think Shez has shown any interest in this? Of course he hasn't.

What's the point in playing Marvin Morgan or Dom Blizzard about Harvey and Allen? Is there one? Is there anything that anyone has seen to suggest the older pros are better? I certainly haven't seen it if there is. I like John Sheridan a lot but his stubbornness for his own signings and lack of interest in our own youth is bordering on quite concerning now.

I don't think we'll renew Harvey's contract, and I'll be surprised if Allen or Bentley ever play much for us, or even get the chance on loan. It's a great shame because we really do have an excellent youth system, look at Gosling/Jones/Gallagher etc. These youth lot aren't that good, but blimey they're not bad at all for this level.

Josh Pope wrote:

swampy wrote:

I think along with young Josh perhaps you have been brought up on a diet of league 2 crap when judging some of these youngsters. This club should be looking at the upper reaches of league 1 as a minimum and the likes of Young and Harvey aren't fit for purpose unfortunately if we hope to get there anytime soon.

Say things like that if it helps yourself believe them, but that doesn't, and won't, make it true.

The sort of thing you've just said is the prime example of the problem English youngsters face. No, neither of the two are blessed with the physicality of Neal Trotman or the flailing limbs of Marvin Morgan, but both are blessed with something we don't tend to appreciate - technical ability. That's not to say people don't find it important, more we don't have the patience for it to really seek through into football matches.

I'll briefly go over Young first. He was and would be the best passer at the club if he was still here. He was the best free-kick taker we had and though his corners weren't always great, he still had the ability to take them better than anyone else. I don't buy the argument that he was anonymous during games it's just people notice playmakers less because they're often not driving forwards, showing off fancy skills or making last ditch tackles to save the team. Alongside someone like Cox, and not Hourihane, it would have been different. Mind you, CH and LY would have been fantastic next to Cox because he compliments every type of central midfielder basically.

Young in general had a decent season last year. In fact, the only poor times he had was when the whole team was playing badly in around March time. Even on off days he'd still find that killer 40 yard pass to spray the ball around. He was technically gifted and not the slowest either. Ask any Torquay fan who the only class player in an average Conference side is and they'll tell you it's Youngy. He's not scoring as many goals now but that doesn't mean he isn't playing well. Do you really think it's any wonder that Championship and decent League 1 sides are interested in him? I don't.

Harvey is a different one. He's had much less of a chance but on the times he has played he's done mostly well I think. The problem he suffers is of the competition in his area and the fact he gets dropped after one poor game. Take Exeter, an excellent performance and a poor-ish game the next (but the whole team were crap) and he's the one who gets dropped. Newport away last season, he's class, a sort of hit and miss game vs Oxford and he's dropped. A very poor team performance vs Fylde, and he's dropped. How is the lad ever supposed to develop any sort of consistency or develop himself when he's played like that and then dropped for another month. What's the point? Are Reuben or Lewi dropped after a poor game? Like hell they are. The lack of U21 games doesn't help but even that's not the right level of opposition for him (but he was stand-out good today for the record).

Harvey is even better technically. His set pieces are often good, scored a cracker of a free-kick today and the one vs Exeter was stunning. He's quick and skilful but obviously a little bit weaker. Not that this matters, because if you play him in the no10 role and give him freedom to roam then he'll avoid the physicality and drive the team forwards. He is class and I don't care what people say. I watched him a lot as a younger player and no, I'm not head scout at Man United but it's not hard to realise when a player has enormous potential.

Frankly, it IS John Sheridan that is the problem. Firstly for his odd releasing of Luke Young, second for his insistence that McHugh was better than Purrington at left back and now for not giving Harvey a chance. I doubt we'll ever see Bentley again, and who knows what'll happen to Allen and Lane. Lane is clearly destined for bright things and Allen needs a loan move to get him improving. Do you think Shez has shown any interest in this? Of course he hasn't.

What's the point in playing Marvin Morgan or Dom Blizzard about Harvey and Allen? Is there one? Is there anything that anyone has seen to suggest the older pros are better? I certainly haven't seen it if there is. I like John Sheridan a lot but his stubbornness for his own signings and lack of interest in our own youth is bordering on quite concerning now.

I don't think we'll renew Harvey's contract, and I'll be surprised if Allen or Bentley ever play much for us, or even get the chance on loan. It's a great shame because we really do have an excellent youth system, look at Gosling/Jones/Gallagher etc. These youth lot aren't that good, but blimey they're not bad at all for this level.

An IMO every now and then wouldn't go amiss bhey or is everything you spout unquestionable fact ? The arrogance of youth I suppose.

How can I be arrogant about something when I know I'm right?

Sheridan gives these guys a chance its down to them to make the most of it.

Josh Pope wrote:

swampy wrote:

I think along with young Josh perhaps you have been brought up on a diet of league 2 crap when judging some of these youngsters. This club should be looking at the upper reaches of league 1 as a minimum and the likes of Young and Harvey aren't fit for purpose unfortunately if we hope to get there anytime soon.

Say things like that if it helps yourself believe them, but that doesn't, and won't, make it true.

The sort of thing you've just said is the prime example of the problem English youngsters face. No, neither of the two are blessed with the physicality of Neal Trotman or the flailing limbs of Marvin Morgan, but both are blessed with something we don't tend to appreciate - technical ability. That's not to say people don't find it important, more we don't have the patience for it to really seek through into football matches.

I'll briefly go over Young first. He was and would be the best passer at the club if he was still here. He was the best free-kick taker we had and though his corners weren't always great, he still had the ability to take them better than anyone else. I don't buy the argument that he was anonymous during games it's just people notice playmakers less because they're often not driving forwards, showing off fancy skills or making last ditch tackles to save the team. Alongside someone like Cox, and not Hourihane, it would have been different. Mind you, CH and LY would have been fantastic next to Cox because he compliments every type of central midfielder basically.

Young in general had a decent season last year. In fact, the only poor times he had was when the whole team was playing badly in around March time. Even on off days he'd still find that killer 40 yard pass to spray the ball around. He was technically gifted and not the slowest either. Ask any Torquay fan who the only class player in an average Conference side is and they'll tell you it's Youngy. He's not scoring as many goals now but that doesn't mean he isn't playing well. Do you really think it's any wonder that Championship and decent League 1 sides are interested in him? I don't.

Harvey is a different one. He's had much less of a chance but on the times he has played he's done mostly well I think. The problem he suffers is of the competition in his area and the fact he gets dropped after one poor game. Take Exeter, an excellent performance and a poor-ish game the next (but the whole team were crap) and he's the one who gets dropped. Newport away last season, he's class, a sort of hit and miss game vs Oxford and he's dropped. A very poor team performance vs Fylde, and he's dropped. How is the lad ever supposed to develop any sort of consistency or develop himself when he's played like that and then dropped for another month. What's the point? Are Reuben or Lewi dropped after a poor game? Like hell they are. The lack of U21 games doesn't help but even that's not the right level of opposition for him (but he was stand-out good today for the record).

Harvey is even better technically. His set pieces are often good, scored a cracker of a free-kick today and the one vs Exeter was stunning. He's quick and skilful but obviously a little bit weaker. Not that this matters, because if you play him in the no10 role and give him freedom to roam then he'll avoid the physicality and drive the team forwards. He is class and I don't care what people say. I watched him a lot as a younger player and no, I'm not head scout at Man United but it's not hard to realise when a player has enormous potential.

Frankly, it IS John Sheridan that is the problem. Firstly for his odd releasing of Luke Young, second for his insistence that McHugh was better than Purrington at left back and now for not giving Harvey a chance. I doubt we'll ever see Bentley again, and who knows what'll happen to Allen and Lane. Lane is clearly destined for bright things and Allen needs a loan move to get him improving. Do you think Shez has shown any interest in this? Of course he hasn't.

What's the point in playing Marvin Morgan or Dom Blizzard about Harvey and Allen? Is there one? Is there anything that anyone has seen to suggest the older pros are better? I certainly haven't seen it if there is. I like John Sheridan a lot but his stubbornness for his own signings and lack of interest in our own youth is bordering on quite concerning now.

I don't think we'll renew Harvey's contract, and I'll be surprised if Allen or Bentley ever play much for us, or even get the chance on loan. It's a great shame because we really do have an excellent youth system, look at Gosling/Jones/Gallagher etc. These youth lot aren't that good, but blimey they're not bad at all for this level.

Well you certainly put up an impassioned case for the young players Josh, I'll give you that. I look forward to Young and Harvey starring at League 1 level at least sometime in the not too distant future then. I just feel what you deem a good youngster is being based on beginning your Argyle watching career during the most dire 4 or 5 years in our history and until the last 15 months or so with the weakest squad of players the club has EVER had. You spoilt the post for me when you announced you weren't the head scout for Man United as up until then you had me convinced. Young for all your protestations couldn't nail down a regular starting place in a mid table league 2 side and the manager didn't think he could make the step up to league one or assist us in making it which is where he hoped to be pretty soon. He made a bright start at Torquay a further league below remember but they have slipped down to mid table now. Clubs will always look at and show an interest in young players who have something about them particularly with regard to technical ability but it requires more than just that natural ability to become a success in the cut throat world of league football. Summerfield went training with Chelsea but looking at and signing them are two different things. You may be proved right in a couple of years time but I will be extremely surprised to see either Young or Harvey carve out a career in professional football above the lower reaches of league 2. I have seen dozens and dozens of more talented youngsters than these two over the years at Home Park who got close to the first team when we were a tier 2 and tier 3 side without quite making it and were let go. A few carved out a career in the lower leagues but most ended up playing non league football. If we were a lower half league 2 team or had the squad we had 2 or 3 years ago then I could see some mileage in keeping them a little longer but I would hope that our ambitions even at our current low standing are set a little higher than that.

Angry wrote:

Sheridan does give youth a chance. Bentley being the latest. Harvey was kept on when many thought he would be let go last summer and Young being given a contract so he must see something in Harvey to do that. Not to mention Lecointe was given a new 12 month contract after missing a year with the knee injury to give him a chance to show what he can do and to earn a longer deal. Not many managers would do that with money being very tight.
Also worth mentioning Sheridan was a youth team manager at Oldham where many made the grade there.

The problem is with youth not cracking into the starting 11 or featuring more on match days is the sheer lack of U21 development games aka reserves.
One game every 2 months is not enough to give First year pros or YTS players who are in that years pick to earn a pro contract in May the opportunity to play/learn/develop and show what they can do and more importantly keeping fit so when the call comes they can make the most of it.

Having the likes of Allen and Bentley sit on the bench and never play and then play them after a very long period of inactivity is not going to have an impact that it could have if they where kept active and fit playing reserve games more often.

Mind you, this could also be the case for a few in the first team squad like Thomas, Morgan, Banton, Bittner, Norburn for example who arent playing as much too. i'm sure they would benefit more from playing than sitting and waiting.

I hope John Sheridan addresses this for next season and has our reserves more active then they are now. We dont have to play a full 46 games a season schedule but 2-3 games a month would do.

Wot 'ee said