The New Hillsborough Inquest

no disrespect to the 96 fans who lost their lives, or the families involved. However, the constant Justice nonsense and the failure of anyone on Merseyside to accept that their own supporters turned up in numbers, without tickets, and had been drinking, is truly pathetic.

It was common practice for some LFC fans to turn up at big all ticket games across Europe, and in England, without tickets with the sole intention of 'Steaming The Gates' in order to gain entry to the ground in question. Anyone pretending that around 2,000 ticketless fans were not in and around Hillsborough that day is just denying the truth.

Yes, the Police failed to direct fans to the outer Pens, but they were under pressure and without an immediate order from the top, they did what they thought best... a bad decision but not a criminal one.

There are fans who were around football at the time, those who know what went on in and around grounds, week in week out, it was not the sanitised world of SKY TV and Prawn Sarnies. If those who cry Justice accept some blame for the actions of their own supporters, they may get a little credit. The Police have accepted that they made mistakes, those who claim not a single fan was drunk, not one fan was ticketless, no fans charged the gates, when they accept that LFC fans must take some responsibility for their actions, then a 3.07pm kick off might be appropriate.

Remember the Heysel 'murders' of Juventus fans just a few years before? When LFC fans tried to blame fans of other clubs, saying they heard London accents on the terraces ? Wow, anyone who was around then and now see on the M1, M5 and M6 heading north coachloads of LFC fans heading to a 'home' game at Anfield.

It is the blame anyone but themselves attitude that annoys many many fans of other clubs. Those who know the score, those who also suffered at the hands of Scousers, inside & outside grounds, at railway stations, motorway services and across Stanley Park, but we can't blame them, they are all angels

 

This should be interesting

Yes, I often think about 10 year old John-Paul Gilhooley, 19 year old Sarah Hicks and her younger sister Victoria, the 67-year old OAP Gerard Baron, the 27 year old fireman Francis McAllister and I think "bloody hooligans, they deserved it." You prick.

Scientific evidence, sworn testimony from people who were there, irrefutable evidence of a grand-scale cover-up by state bodies including the police and the highest levels of government that warranted an apology in Parliament by the Prime Minister...

... but no. Dane has read (or looked at the pictures) in a Dougie Brimson book and has got the blu ray of Green Street, so that's that sorted.

"Dane solves complex matters of national importance with nothing but the vague shred of an irrational and bigoted opinion". Yes, I could see that being a regular thing.

Think you need to re-read what I wrote before calling me a prick, you prick

Gareth Nicholson wrote:

Yes, I often think about 10 year old John-Paul Gilhooley, 19 year old Sarah Hicks and her younger sister Victoria, the 67-year old OAP Gerard Baron, the 27 year old fireman Francis McAllister and I think "bloody hooligans, they deserved it." You prick.

Scientific evidence, sworn testimony from people who were there, irrefutable evidence of a grand-scale cover-up by state bodies including the police and the highest levels of government that warranted an apology in Parliament by the Prime Minister...

... but no. Dane has read (or looked at the pictures) in a Dougie Brimson book and has got the blu ray of Green Street, so that's that sorted.

"Dane solves complex matters of national importance with nothing but the vague shred of an irrational and bigoted opinion". Yes, I could see that being a regular thing.

  

You're a Man United fan, Dane. We get it. But lay your rivalry down for a second you twit.

The fans might have had a part to play but its the cover ups that are not acceptable and point to failings by the police at that time.

Dane. wrote:

Think you need to re-read what I wrote before calling me a prick, you prick

OK, I've done that. Here's what I came up with. My bits, helpfully, are in red.

Sitting comfortably? Then I shall begin.

no disrespect to the 96 fans who lost their lives, or the families involved. - See Dane, you started here with the equivolent of "I'm not being racist, but..." which, any fule kno, is the start of a racist diatribe. I think any sane person would say that what you wrote is massively disrespectful to the 96 and especially to their families. Anyone who goes to something as insignifiant as a football match but doesn't come home deserves nothing but respect.

However, the constant Justice nonsense and the failure of anyone on Merseyside to accept that their own supporters turned up in numbers, without tickets, and had been drinking, is truly pathetic.  - Justice, eh? CURSE YOU, JUSTICE! How dare fans want to know how their loved ones died and what was covered up by the police and other authorities. You're repeating myths that have long been disabused, so unless you can present some evidence that nobody else has ever seen, the charge of "prick" stands.


It was common practice for some LFC fans to turn up at big all ticket games across Europe, and in England, without tickets with the sole intention of 'Steaming The Gates' in order to gain entry to the ground in question. Anyone pretending that around 2,000 ticketless fans were not in and around Hillsborough that day is just denying the truth. - It was common practice for all football clubs with large followings to have a similar problem. The fact that such a practice was, as you say, "common" means it's even more negligent for no plan to be in place to manage it at a by definition unsafe ground with poor policing.

Yes, the Police failed to direct fans to the outer Pens, but they were under pressure and without an immediate order from the top, they did what they thought best... a bad decision but not a criminal one. - That's your opinion but a huge amount of evidence exists which says it's utterly wrong and is as rooted in reality as most of your interventions here.

There are fans who were around football at the time, those who know what went on in and around grounds, week in week out, it was not the sanitised world of SKY TV and Prawn Sarnies. If those who cry Justice accept some blame for the actions of their own supporters, they may get a little credit. The Police have accepted that they made mistakes, those who claim not a single fan was drunk, not one fan was ticketless, no fans charged the gates, when they accept that LFC fans must take some responsibility for their actions, then a 3.07pm kick off might be appropriate. - Nobody has ever said no fans had been drinking. But not even The Sun now thinks that fans are responsible for this tragedy. You're putting yourself in a moral order below the gutter press. Congratulations. Oh, and let's have a look at those wonderous 1980s days, when police were brutal, politicians wanted ID cards, Ken Bates put up electric fencing to keep fans in and they were generally treated with more contempt than animals. What romance!

Remember the Heysel 'murders' of Juventus fans just a few years before? When LFC fans tried to blame fans of other clubs, saying they heard London accents on the terraces ? Wow, anyone who was around then and now see on the M1, M5 and M6 heading north coachloads of LFC fans heading to a 'home' game at Anfield. - How old were you in 1985, Dane? And the events of Heysel are entirely unconnected to Hillsborough in any way apart from they were football matches at outdated and unsafe stadia. It's a straw man argument and a shit one at that.

It is the blame anyone but themselves attitude that annoys many many fans of other clubs. Those who know the score, those who also suffered at the hands of Scousers, inside & outside grounds, at railway stations, motorway services and across Stanley Park, but we can't blame them, they are all angels. - Not "many other fans", Dane. "Many other pricks".To the fans who hiss at Spurs games to the fans who sing Munich songs at Man U games to the fans who sing songs at Leeds fans about the Galatasaray stabbings. It's not banter, it's inhumane hatred and it's done by pricks or people who like to hang out with pricks.

Gareth Nicholson wrote:

Dane. wrote:

Think you need to re-read what I wrote before calling me a prick, you prick

OK, I've done that. Here's what I came up with. My bits, helpfully, are in red.

Sitting comfortably? Then I shall begin.

no disrespect to the 96 fans who lost their lives, or the families involved. - See Dane, you started here with the equivolent of "I'm not being racist, but..." which, any fule kno, is the start of a racist diatribe. I think any sane person would say that what you wrote is massively disrespectful to the 96 and especially to their families. Anyone who goes to something as insignifiant as a football match but doesn't come home deserves nothing but respect.

However, the constant Justice nonsense and the failure of anyone on Merseyside to accept that their own supporters turned up in numbers, without tickets, and had been drinking, is truly pathetic.  - Justice, eh? CURSE YOU, JUSTICE! How dare fans want to know how their loved ones died and what was covered up by the police and other authorities. You're repeating myths that have long been disabused, so unless you can present some evidence that nobody else has ever seen, the charge of "prick" stands.


It was common practice for some LFC fans to turn up at big all ticket games across Europe, and in England, without tickets with the sole intention of 'Steaming The Gates' in order to gain entry to the ground in question. Anyone pretending that around 2,000 ticketless fans were not in and around Hillsborough that day is just denying the truth. - It was common practice for all football clubs with large followings to have a similar problem. The fact that such a practice was, as you say, "common" means it's even more negligent for no plan to be in place to manage it at a by definition unsafe ground with poor policing.
Yes, the Police failed to direct fans to the outer Pens, but they were under pressure and without an immediate order from the top, they did what they thought best... a bad decision but not a criminal one.

There are fans who were around football at the time, those who know what went on in and around grounds, week in week out, it was not the sanitised world of SKY TV and Prawn Sarnies. If those who cry Justice accept some blame for the actions of their own supporters, they may get a little credit. The Police have accepted that they made mistakes, those who claim not a single fan was drunk, not one fan was ticketless, no fans charged the gates, when they accept that LFC fans must take some responsibility for their actions, then a 3.07pm kick off might be appropriate. - Nobody has ever said no fans had been drinking. But not even The Sun now thinks that fans are responsible for this tragedy. You're putting yourself in a moral order below the gutter press. Congratulations. Oh, and let's have a look at those wonderous 1980s days, when police were brutal, politicians wanted ID cards, Ken Bates put up electric fencing to keep fans in and they were generally treated with more contempt than animals. What romance!

Remember the Heysel 'murders' of Juventus fans just a few years before? When LFC fans tried to blame fans of other clubs, saying they heard London accents on the terraces ? Wow, anyone who was around then and now see on the M1, M5 and M6 heading north coachloads of LFC fans heading to a 'home' game at Anfield.[color=#ff3300] - How old were you in 1985, Dane? And the events of Heysel are entirely unconnected to Hillsborough in any way apart from they were football matches at outdated and unsafe stadia. It's a straw man argument and a shit one at that.[/color]

It is the blame anyone but themselves attitude that annoys many many fans of other clubs. Those who know the score, those who also suffered at the hands of Scousers, inside & outside grounds, at railway stations, motorway services and across Stanley Park, but we can't blame them, they are all angels. - Not "many other fans", Dane. "Many other pricks".To the fans who hiss at Spurs games to the fans who sing Munich songs at Man U games to the fans who sing songs at Leeds fans about the Galatasaray stabbings. It's not banter, it's inhumane hatred and it's done by pricks or people who like to hang out with pricks.

the hipocrasy here (especially) is amazing

You clearly have a lot of time on your hands,

All im saying is that the Liverpool fans that day had a contributing part to play in the disaster that unfolded

you are clearly saying that they are 0% to blame which is total rubbish

Dane. wrote:

You clearly have a lot of time on your hands,

All im saying is that the Liverpool fans that day had a contributing part to play in the disaster that unfolded

you are clearly saying that they are 0% to blame which is total rubbish  

5 minutes during a lunch break. And I made a brew during that time too. It's hardly a debate at the Algonquin round table (it'll be on wiki if you want to look that up).

I'm saying that if you look around at the people who agree with you, there's a 99.9% chance that they're pricks too. This isn't about me being right and you wrong (although I am and you are). It's just that your argument is piss-poor and has been demolished over 25 years in court and in written evidence that had to be dragged out of the South Yorks police.

There were mistakes made by the authorities and a disgusting cover up was attempted, but it wasn't murder.........

nah your just being a patronising prick on your 30 minute standard lunch break in your standard basic wage job.

you try and dazzle me with your knowledge all you want, but id question where it's got you in life ?

  

Dane, you are astonishing.

Posted this elsewhere but it fits here.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

The 96 who died at Hillsborough were entirely innocent victims of both crass organisational ineptitude beforehand and, at best, systemic institutional disregard or, at worst, extremely high level conspiracy, afterwards. Hillsborough was about so much more that "somebody opening a gate". Whatever the prevailing contemporary culture was this was a predictable and avoidable catastrophe.

A previous tragedy in the Leppings Lane End was narrowly averted, more through luck than judgement, involving Spurs fans during their semi-final v Wolves in 1981.



The FA should never have awarded the tie to Hillsborough in the first instance.

Sheffield Wednesday should never have accepted another semi-final after the '81 game.

Sheffield council should have vetoed the tie being played there because Hillsborough did not have a safety certificate.

And all of that was well before matchday.

Once the tragedy had happened South Yorkshire police perpetrated, and were nearly successful in their attempts, a huge cover-up involving evidence being lost, amended and just not gathered in the first place. All aided and abetted by sctions of the press that was complicit in spreading lies and smearing the dead and a government, well.. several governments, which either did not want to know at all or who looked the other way as the judiciary meekly fell in to line and failed to act in the interests of natural justice.

Hillsborough is a systemic scandal of massive proportions with many, many people complicit either through action or inaction.

And it is an utter disgrace that it has taken 25 years before any of this has been taken seriously.

Dane. wrote:

nah your just being a patronising prick on your 30 minute standard lunch break in your standard basic wage job.

you try and dazzle me with your knowledge all you want, but id question where it's got you in life ?

Sorry, I was going to post nothing on this thread but that is so sad .........

I don't know the exact ins and outs of what happened that day but an independent inquiry (which incidentally when those kind of things always go in favour of the establishment, on the one time they don't do so surely that says something pretty certain about where the blame is) found Liverpool supporters to be 100% innocent.

Drunk fans and ticketless fans turned up to EVERY game in that era. It doesn't mean that there were too many of them for it to be unsafe. Even with ticketless fans, the amount of LFC fans in the Leppings Lane End on that day were far below other numbers of people that have been in the Leppings Lane End on other days. And they were far below the designated capacity of the Leppings Lane End.

Fans who had had a drink or two always turned up. Ticketless fans had always turned up and did not turn up in such numbers as were inherently unsafe. Even the notoriously establishment biased inquests having looked at all the facts as well as the even more notoriously establishment biased Sun newspaper have now absolved the fans of all blame. I think it takes some pretty amazing logical gymnastics to still attach any blame to any of the Liverpool fans that day.

What is tragic is that the catastrophic consequences of Police incompetence would have been exacerbated by any ticketless fans bunking in that day. To think that every person on that terrace had a valid ticket is to demonstrate quite breathtaking naivety.

Czarcasm wrote:

What is tragic is that the catastrophic consequences of Police incompetence would have been exacerbated by any ticketless fans bunking in that day. To think that every person on that terrace had a valid ticket is to demonstrate quite breathtaking naivety.

I agree that it would demonstrate naivety if that were so- but no-one's said that that's the case. Of course there were ticketless fans and even those of us who think the Liverpool fans were not at all to blame aren't denying so. All we're saying is we don't think that that makes them culpable for what happened. It may be 'wrong' to turn up for a game without a ticket from a moral perspective but it didn't lead to deaths anymore so than all the other countless games where more fans turned up than there were tickets sold. The one exceptional thing was the policing and particular circumstances of that day. I wasn't around in the 80s but it's still common knowledge that ticketless fans were a regular feature but this didn't happen at every game.

https://www.argyletd.com/t6609-blue-is-the-colour

Dane. wrote:

Praying for city or Chelsea to win the premier league

Anyone but those murdering bin dippers

Seriously Dane. Behave.

Whats your point azzer ?

Dane. wrote:

no disrespect to the 96 fans who lost their lives, or the families involved. However, the constant Justice nonsense and the failure of anyone on Merseyside to accept that their own supporters turned up in numbers, without tickets, and had been drinking, is truly pathetic.

I think your previous attitude toward Scousers on here, might be about the same as the police on the day. No wonder these people have fought for justice when such attitudes still exist. They've even been labeled as "mawkish" by the likes of Boris Johnson. That's a joke when you see what annual death remembrances his bunch get up to.
Fans have always turned up at big games with no tickets, especially big games..
Massive police presences are paid hugely well to control this sort of thing as they had done for decade upon decade, for thousands of matches. And that's before the cover ups and lies.

Dane. wrote:

Whats your point azzer ?

What's your point? Comedy? Be a pariah? It's not trolling. I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve.

Open up debate