Holloway

From 1:45 on from this video is interesting.

Who is the board member he refers to?

Certainly gives more ammunition to Tring though.



Sorry if covering old ground but our club has been in so much turmoil I've forgotten what is fact or not.

I don't know who he meant.

There's loads of ooey talked about the Holloway era that seems to have become cemented as hard fact. One of them is that we were a fabulous footballing side. To an extent we were but we were best set up as an away side and the best performances came away from Home Park (the win at Palace, even though it was only 1-0, was probably the best I have ever seen us play) but at Home Park we far too often knocked it up to SEB and Hayles who rarely won possession in any meaningful way.

Our league position was strong, just about our best ever when Holloway left, but it was built on great road wins and not great home performances. As a result attendances never picked up and we started to lose money (I recall Stapleton saying we were running at a "controlled loss" at the time).

Eventually the losses mounted up and weren't sustainable any more; add to that a perfect storm of players getting poached, get-out clauses on contracts and ageing stalwarts and the outcome was never likely to be pretty.

The directors at the time were either unable or unwilling to continue to pump money in and so Kagami and the others eventually arrived and none of the new people ever had a handle on what it meant to be us in that division and to be fair to Kagami he never pretended that he was here for the football.

And what happened after that was a car crash of horrific proportions.

The real issue here is how do we stop something similar happening again?

There's only 2 options: 1) get a minted owner with money to burn; 2) generate the money ourselves.

Well #1 is unlikely which leaves us with #2. That means a club with a radically different outlook and radically different infra-structure from training ground to stadium.

We need to convert Home Park into a stadium that can, in part, bank roll success and we need to develop scouting and coaching so that when the next crop of successful players is poached we have a fall back option and can cope without collapsing.

But looking back again bookending Holloway's departure, for one reason or another, we lost Buszaky, Halmosi, Timar (through injury), Gosling, Wotton, Nalis, Hayles and Norris. How could any team stand losing that many key players in such a short period of time?

And once the going got tough we lost a staggering number of players to injury with BWP and Mpenza probably being the most significant but think back to Sturrock's last season... How many CBs did we use that year? Timar, Seip, Sawyer, Arnason, Reda Johnson, Fletcher, Lowry, Chester, N'Gala, Darcy Blake and Barker all played at CB for him. It's impossible to build a side with so many changes in the heart of the defence.

So tight-wad directors, greedy/ambitious players, property development, the World Cup bid, FIFA corruption, injuries and dumb bad luck just took their turn to stick the boot in and once they started booting it never stopped.

How much of this Holloway saw coming is dubious but it just goes to show how important momentum is. And it works both negatively and positively. Once the direction of travel is established turning it around is very, very difficult.

The only thing Holloway saw coming was lack of investment in his team.

As soon as it was made clear to him by Stapleton, he was off.  Even if it meant eating his words of only a few days before.

A devastating turn of events for management, manager, the staff, and most of all...  Fans.

In the long run...  The match that lit the fuse that led to Argyle's complete and utter collapse.

Very true

Holloway was perfect for Argyle . All I've ever said [one trick pony] is the fact that in modern football, clubs with no top flight history cannot expect the potential fanbase to arrive unless the club shows cash backed ambition at key moments. Other clubs who have gone on to make the step up to the PL have had either some wealth in the boardroom and/ or a stadium built to inspire.

The simple truth is that Stapes/his board got greedy. They got lucky with Sturrock first time and the giant began to awaken. After 16k average attendance in a struggling first season back, Pulis did a great job making us lean and mean but it was awful to watch. Along comes Holloway, he builds on the Pulis foundations and we can begin to dream. It was at that moment that a cash injection just had to come but Stapes and the outclassed board were on a high and didn't want to lose their train set. What followed with players cashing in on their earning potential to go [or in Seip's case to stay   ] was predictable. Holloway too, as he admitted, began to believe in his own hype.

Whether it was true or not, an ex director at the time, told me that in the Autumn of 2007 Holloway asked for investment to make a push for promotion. When he was told that despite saying they woud look, the board had made no real efforts, the game was up.
I've always believed that if marketed well, Argyle would be a great investment for people who understand the nature of the beast but the board wanted to keep their fingers in the pie. Look what happened with that, later.

Those who believe it is all the fault of the plastics for not turning up, live in some sort of Janner Avivaworld. They seem to think that everyone should be as besotted with the club as they are. The saddest thing is that these people are now desperately trying to help the reluctant one restrict our potential by boxing in the stadium.

Then it really will be a case of, 'Theym naaaaat praaaaaper faaaaans. Theym plaaaaaastics!' And the same 6k hardcore will Avivafest themselves into the sunset in perpetuity. Geddon.

Pulis is an interesting thread running through this. As Tring said the football was simply dreadful to watch. Maybe not as dreadful as the years that saw us constantly battling relegation but still dreadful.

During his year in charge all of the joy and excitement was sucked out of watching Argyle to be replaced by manful struggle, toil and attrition. I can't imagine anybody but a committed supporter renewing their season ticket after being put through that particular year. I think it was this year that saw attendances drop off and it cast such a long shadow that they never recovered.

However in terms of functionality Pulis ruthlessly stripped out the deadwood and left Argyle lean with foundations ready to be built on. This was where Holloway got lucky. He inherited a club laden with opportunity and potential with all the nasty, horrible work done. It must be extremely rare for a manager to take a team on in such fine fettle.

You can tell we're in the middle of a football drought, can't you!

Hmm. I think it would be going a tad too far to say Holloway took on a side in fine fettle. He took on a side that had had most of the crap removed from it granted. He didn't actually have that many of the good players added to it though- aside from Nalis.

Seip, Timar, Halmosi, Hayles and SEB were added to the side by Holloway for a cost of less than £800,000 which is truly remarkable. Not many managers could have added so much class with so few resources. He had the deadwood stripped away from the club by Pulis- but he had to do part two of that job and add the 'good wood'. I think a lot of manager would have failed in his 'part two' and you can't hand the credit just to Pulis imho. They both played their part as admirably as eachother- in spite of how horrible Pulis's was to watch.

Interestingly of course Pulis is now saving Holloway's Palace from relegation beating Chelsea whilst Holloway relegates Millwall.

Dick Trickle wrote:

Interestingly of course Pulis is now saving Holloway's Palace from relegation beating Chelsea whilst Holloway relegates Millwall.

Indeed. They both have their strengths and weaknesses but either could have got Argyle to the PL with a bit of cash backed ambition. They both knew the score with regard the board. The club's history is littered with missed opportunities. Had one been taken we would probably be where Norwich and Southampton are now, support wise.

Stapes and co were outclassed and got greedy, as I oft tried to warn on the farm.   


Holloway's letter to Scallan, says it all.

I don’t think that Pulis ever intended to stay at Home Park, it was merely a marriage of convenience that filled Pulis’s employment record while he waited for a better opportunity to pop up. In return for his continuous employment record he pulled off a miracle and kept up in the Championship, so it was a good deal for all.

As SFD has said, Holloway’s team wasn’t as exciting as some would like us to remember and it was inconsistent, but he was moving the team in the right direction for a determined shout at promotion to the Premier and with a little more support I think he would have taken us there.

As much as I think Holloway could have taken the Club to the pinnacle of football and as much as I think that Stapes and his merry band of greedy and shamed disciples are to blame for the Club’s position of today, I still find Holloway a two faced hypocritical shit who lacks the balls to come out and say what actually happened and to names names, instead all we got was innuendo and “I told you so” comments that in the big scheme of things mean sweet FA.

GOB wrote:

I don’t think that Pulis ever intended to stay at Home Park, it was merely a marriage of convenience that filled Pulis’s employment record while he waited for a better opportunity to pop up. In return for his continuous employment record he pulled off a miracle and kept up in the Championship, so it was a good deal for all.

As SFD has said, Holloway’s team wasn’t as exciting as some would like us to remember and it was inconsistent, but he was moving the team in the right direction for a determined shout at promotion to the Premier and with a little more support I think he would have taken us there.

As much as I think Holloway could have taken the Club to the pinnacle of football and as much as I think that Stapes and his merry band of greedy and shamed disciples are to blame for the Club’s position of today, I still find Holloway a two faced hypocritical shit who lacks the balls to come out and say what actually happened and to names names, instead all we got was innuendo and “I told you so” comments that in the big scheme of things mean sweet FA.

I think he's said enough to confirm what a few of us suspected. Rarely are individuals named to avoid possible litigation.

The big problem then, as before, was that we can occasionally build a team that is successful but hanging on to the players that are critical to that success is very hard.

The moment that a team like Argyle starts to threaten somebody, lets say Wolves, looks at us and think that player, let's say SEB, could do a job for us. They have more money because they attract bigger crowds in a stadium that generates more money from those that visit it and so SEB gets poached. The same happened with Capaldi, Connolly, Norris, Gosling and Halmosi last time and it happened when Mariner was the boy in the '70s. We're a "selling club" as a result. But so is everybody else. If, say, Ipswich get a player, say Mariner, then he's off to, say, Arsenal at the first chance he gets.

At which point we have to ask why we get so adversely affected when it happens to us. Well last time it was the sheer scale of it, I don't recall anything similar ever happening anywhere else, but we are essentially a very fragile operation with minimal scouting and coaching infra-structure behind it.

The way forward for us has to be long-term thinking. It needs vision rather than ambition. Back along the chance for Argyle to buy the cricket club land was turned down. That was the wrong decision and it lies at the heart of everything that has happened since. We should have bought that land and invested the money we were making at the time into building some sort of Academy (not hotels, cinemas, etc) and if we had then we'd now be about 10 years down the road and all those 8 year olds who started then would be knocking on the first team door now. And if when we sold a few along the way we could look at the next crop coming off the conveyor belt to replace them.

But you'll never hear a manager making a case for such a venture because none of them expect to be in a job for 10 years.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

The big problem then, as before, was that we can occasionally build a team that is successful but hanging on to the players that are critical to that success is very hard.

The moment that a team like Argyle starts to threaten somebody, lets say Wolves, looks at us and think that player, let's say SEB, could do a job for us. They have more money because they attract bigger crowds in a stadium that generates more money from those that visit it and so SEB gets poached. The same happened with Capaldi, Connolly, Norris, Gosling and Halmosi last time and it happened when Mariner was the boy in the '70s. We're a "selling club" as a result. But so is everybody else. If, say, Ipswich get a player, say Mariner, then he's off to, say, Arsenal at the first chance he gets.

At which point we have to ask why we get so adversely affected when it happens to us. Well last time it was the sheer scale of it, I don't recall anything similar ever happening anywhere else, but we are essentially a very fragile operation with minimal scouting and coaching infra-structure behind it.

The way forward for us has to be long-term thinking. It needs vision rather than ambition. Back along the chance for Argyle to buy the cricket club land was turned down. That was the wrong decision and it lies at the heart of everything that has happened since. We should have bought that land and invested the money we were making at the time into building some sort of Academy (not hotels, cinemas, etc) and if we had then we'd now be about 10 years down the road and all those 8 year old who started then would be knocking on the first team door now. And if when we sold a few along the way we could look at the next crop coming off the conveyor belt to replace them.

But you'll never hear a manager making a case for such a venture because none of them expect to be in a job for 10 years.

Southampton's youth set up has and continues to pay dividends. I suspect that the likes of Channon , Le Tissier and/or maybe others, have provided the long term thinking. We have the chameleon Iddlesleigh and now the Windsor Boys ffs !

Exactly.

And it was Iddlesleigh who upped and cleared out sharpish when the cricket club land purchase was proposed. He's been an extremely divisive and malignantly manipulative influence on the club for a very, very long time.

You only have to look at his almost complete media silence, his cowardly use of internet multis, him sitting next to Newell in the directors' box, his support for HHP, spineless acceptance of Webb as club President, the current brand mis-management, a long series of PR disasters, his "feck off and support Man Utd" comments...

Never mind the money. Where is the vision and integrity the club needs?

I do wonder though SFD, if those players would have been off to greener pastures had they been convinced of a true and genuine intention and ambition? I find it hard to accept that all players only consider that success and therefore a higher wage can only be delivered at clubs other than PAFC and that's where Holloway came into his own, he was able to convince players that Home Park could deliver their ambitions.

There's also a confusion between the right path to take to gain success when it comes to business combined with sport and I think this causes the biggest split in the Internet opinion machine that can never be healed. Are we supporting a business or a sports club?

Some supporters are happy just to have a club to support no matter what the level as long as there's a club to support and they prefer a sensible non risk assurance of somewhere to go on a Saturday afternoon. Others demand a club that has passion, ambition and flare that will require a degree of sensible risk at the right time and place, that's where the two opinions clash.

Personally speaking, football is predominantly a sport and as with all sports it needs to take a considered and calculated risk to be successful and as such cannot be treated using the same methods and securities that a business would require. Running a professional football club as a business will deliver only stagnation that will in turn lead to failure yet, running a business as a professional football club will also lead to the stagnation and the same failure.

There is a middle ground, it's just that PAFC have never looked for it and have never found it.

Who were seips 'advisors' for his contract negotiations ??????

I disagree with your assertion that "running a professional football club as a business will deliver only stagnation" not because it isn't true (although I don't believe that it is) but because the logical outcome of not operating as a viable business is bankruptcy after which you'll be lucky to have a team to talk about at all and if you do it's likely to be asset-stripped by some shyster.

It is precisely because so many teams are run unsustainably that everything everywhere from TV money to players' wages to price of admission spirals away into the lunacy that it does.

The only reason they get away with it is because so many clubs hit administration and write off much of the debt that has fuelled the spiral.

And that means that football's insane business model is in effect being subsidised by tax-payers' money which would be far better spent on any number of genuinely important things (in comparison to Tyler Harvey's new car).

Football clubs ought to be run as a business like any other.

Beside if it meant that Argyle permanently hovered around Division 3 as a result who would notice the difference?

Forgetting all the village shite. Holloway's Argyle were really enjoyable to watch. That midfield were so good. Buzaky (who didn't actually seem to be liked by Holloway), Nalis, Norris and Halmosi; not a bad player amongst them. Shelly and Seip were class. Two superb keepers. Fallon ??????? Hayles and Ebanks-Blake got goals. They were the best team I've seen play at Home Park in green. They entertained us for such a brief period but I actually looked forward to watching them.
It was a shame that building a team like that meant we almost went bankrupt though.

Just to add to SFD, no football club on the planet that's successful is run like a business. Businesses are supposed to profit the owners/shareholders. Football will eat itself one day.

It won't eat me. Poisoned land is easily detected and avoided should one want to.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

Exactly.

And it was Iddlesleigh who upped and cleared out sharpish when the cricket club land purchase was proposed. He's been an extremely divisive and malignantly manipulative influence on the club for a very, very long time.

You only have to look at his almost complete media silence, his cowardly use of internet multis, him sitting next to Newell in the directors' box, his support for HHP, spineless acceptance of Webb as club President, the current brand mis-management, a long series of PR disasters, his "feck off and support Man Utd" comments...

Never mind the money. Where is the vision and integrity the club needs?

I suspect SFDs dislike of Peter Jones has clouded his judgement. Jones, Foot and Warren offered their resignations when Stapleton, Dennerley and Gill wanted to buy the cricket ground and rent it to PAFC. Argyle were to be the tenants, Stapleton, Dennerley and Gill, the landlords.
This was the first indication that personal gain was the goal.
Warren later withdrew his threat and stayed on (the)board for a while.
Jones and Foot were correct and you could argue, honourable, in their decision.
Peter Jones hasn't covered himself in glory of late but you are wrong to criticise him in this instant.

hairy j wrote:

Forgetting all the village shite. Holloway's Argyle were really enjoyable to watch. That midfield were so good. Buzaky (who didn't actually seem to be liked by Holloway), Nalis, Norris and Halmosi; not a bad player amongst them. Shelly and Seip were class. Two superb keepers. Fallon ??????? Hayles and Ebanks-Blake got goals. They were the best team I've seen play at Home Park in green. They entertained us for such a brief period but I actually looked forward to watching them.

Interestingly enough (or not) Nalis played more games for us than he did any other club in his career. I don't remember him being here that long and I'd have certainly given him another season at the time (did we really see Nalis, Abdou, Hodges and Wotton all released in that single summer?). The fact that Fletcher was the man to supposedly replace Nalis only makes things worse. Why replace an ageing star with another whose legs are even further gone? Was that the summer that we were supposedly in for Charlie Adam? Crumbs what a shite summer.

Nalis still had a good season in him. A great player for us. I thought it very gratuitous that Sturrock moved him on along with Wotton after his injury. Sturrock had lost enough of Holloway's team with the likes of SEB, Norris and Halmosi being beyond his control. What on earth was he thinking of in ridding himself of a very successful defensive midfield at the same time ? Madness, and bordering on big ego new broom stuff. But it was always my way or the highway. Probably why he could never manage at the higher level when good players just wouldn't put up with that cannon fodder mentality.