Capacity At Home Park

I've no idea what our current capacity crowd is. I'm guessing 16000 with the Mayflower Terrace being shut.

In reality it is far lower because of the segregation under the BPE and the mass of empty seats behind the goal which can only be used by away fans.

And now the game tomorrow is essentially all-ticket because there will be no pay on the day.

And this attendance will at some stage be pointed at "... when we played Exeter and a play-off spot was on we only got..." as justification for Brent's planned stadium size.

And nothing could be further from the truth.

The publicity coming out of the club today, with more sure to follow tomorrow, has already discouraged people from just rocking up to HP tomorrow night. At least it will for those who have bothered to look.

And those who do just rock up face a load of hassle and chaos as they get sent to the ticket office where they'll have to queue only, probably, to end up with tickets God knows where if they are lucky.

All of which will hardly encourage them to try again.

"We only got..." they'll say. And they'll be right.

But how many could we have got?

Exactly. Business end of the season with a play-off spot a real possibility V Exeter should and could pull 14-15k. I'm not going because I can't be arsed for the reasons SFD has mentioned. Brent's apologists will be rubbing their hands at tomorrow night's artificially low attendance.

BRENT OUT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Freathy, you're not going because you have to book a ticket in advanced? Am I missing something here? I happen to agree with most of what SFD is saying, as per, but I'm unsure why you're put off going tomorrow for those reasons? I'm not going to lambast you for not going, that'd be hypocritical because I'm not going, but my reasoning is very different. Not a criticism, just a question.

The real crime here is that we probably would have had an extra 5000, or whatever, on the gate.

5000 people all paying hard cash.

5000 people all paying top dollar.

5000 people paying £20 is £100,000.

That'd be cash flow over the summer sorted.

That'd mean we didn't need to sell season tickets early.

That'd mean we wouldn't run out of money in February again next season.

What are we going to do when we run out of money in February, again, next year? Bring ST sales forward another month?

I've said it before, in fact most recently a couple of days ago on here. I'll say it again...... Argyle is a self-imposed ghetto. Having that view has been ridiculed on Pasoti for years. They don't believe the simple truth that ordinary people who don't go to Argyle regularly in the city believe you have to have a pre match ticket or else yoou can't get in for any game. They believe you can no longer just rock up to an Argyle game and just pay cash at the turnstiles like one used to do. They believe you need a ticket. Well, this won't help, will it.

Great stuff from the club yet again. Hopeless. That's three of my friends who will be pissed off tomorrow and end up not going. I've just texted them to tell them not to bother.
And if anyone on here can't understand that some people just don't want to go through all the fiff faff of going to the back of the grandstand to get a ticket or pop up to Home Park earlier in the week, then there really is nothing more to say. If Argyle don't want to make matches accessible to the ordinary Plymouthian, then fine. Their loss. More and more, anybody but the addicted is not catered for.

Hairy will be along in a minute to say yet again the club welcomes new fans, casual fans, even.. No, it doesn't. Hasn't done so for donkey's years. Calls them glory hunters. Charming.
I have always always paid cash at the turnstiles. This club hasn't had a clue regarding accessibility since the likes of Kagami came on board. The club continues to go backward. No wonder it keeps losing money.
The club is like that stupid outdoor activity shop near Faraday Mill... can't remember their name. You innocently pop in there and find out they want to charge you precisely double for anything they sell if you don't want to sign up and become a member of their shop and give them your inside leg measurement ! Ludicrous. Needless to say, I've never bought one single item there.

Doubt we d lose 5k making it all ticket.
However the tkt process of all these clubs is a joke, pay on the day is becoming a thing off the pastn

Yep, nobody wants cash anymore. Not worth getting out of bed for a few plastics, they don't even know what colour we play in.. arf arf. Let's screw 'em and wind 'em up, let 'em queue for an hour, they deserve it for not turning up every week.

Indeed Elias, it's not an exclusive thing to Argyle. Although I don't think it's unreasonable to ask fans to ring up or go online and click and collect if unable to make the box office before hand. If you absolutely must POTD then there's the grandstand available for that. It's a bit daft and an inconvenience sure, but we saw what a mess POTD can be on an occasion such as this at the Torquay match last season (I think it was that game?) where the club was complete overwhelmed by the support turning up on the day compared to booked in advance and fans didn't make it in upto 15 mins into K.O.

The only real daft but of business here is giving such a large section to Exeter who are clearly struggling to muster support for this and placing the family section in such a stupid position. I don't think the family section is something that can be altered too easily now though, I've not been in it personally but from what I've heard it's a completely segregated bit of concourse that is kitted out with fun things for kids.

accessibility is poor, fancy turning up for any home game having not gone for a few years.
Cant pay at the gate, got to walk to ticket office to queue then give your your details (address etc), walk back to turnstile to get in.
You need to be able to pay at the gate! especially in this division.
Ok if its dry but if its throwing it down youll get soaked in time to sit in cold ground not a great customer experience.

Clueless & doomes (this isnt directed at you Spowell for a change   )

That's why I'm confused about criticism of club press. They've released details saying it's effectively ticket only and how you can order your tickets in multiple ways and the times in which you can do this. If you've not been for a couple of years you should probably check the website or find out some details. It appears there'll be nearly no point in POTD anyway because it's a near capacity crowd already, but that's only because of the self imposed restrictions of our capacity. In my opinion your criticisms are misplaced. It really doesn't take much to ring and collect, even I can manage it.

All Ticket means we wont have 2000 potders expecting to get in when there is only 800 seats left.

It's just common sense to go all ticket when at near saturation. A lot fewer disagreeable locked out janners that way.

So SFD, where would the hypothetical 5,000 extra supporters go?

I think SFD's 5000 figure is stretching it a bit, but the space from blocks 16 - 21/22 is wasted to accommodate a single block family section and an enormous segregation from the minnow red support. We have own family club of the year for 2 consecutive years and that's something to be proud of IMO, but the placing of it is a bit daft when events like this come about. It does sound impressive what they've set up though and through the majority of the season it's not an issue.

spowell92 wrote:

I think SFD's 5000 figure is stretching it a bit, but the space from blocks 16 - 21/22 is wasted to accommodate a single block family section and an enormous segregation from the minnow red support. We have own family club of the year for 2 consecutive years and that's something to be proud of IMO, but the placing of it is a bit daft when events like this come about. It does sound impressive what they've set up though and through the majority of the season it's not an issue.

Indeed. I agree with the principle of SFD's post but also think 5,000 is stretching it slightly. Let's not forget that the grandstand WILL be pay on the door tomorrow and tickets for the rest of the ground can still be purchased as late as seven. I don't think people on the day have been put off to quite the extent as is claimed imho although maybe I'm wrong. There's no real way of knowing until tomorrow.

But the handling of blocks 16-21 for this game has been a farce. An utter farce.

How many seats for pay on day?
Why just there though, if police imposed then thats a restriction of trade surely

There are now so many things 'wrong' at Argiggle, that I'm very glad I'm two thousand miles away.

Argyle have always made a rod for their own back as far as POTDers go. Time and time again, and is well documented,  they have fecked up with hundereds being turned away on the day on numerous occasions. Tonight will be no different.

As far as wasted 'potential' seats go - how come you can have Arsenal V Chelsea or Man U V Man Citeeh games with fans only separated by a couple of rows of seats and some stewards? Instead of using several blocks and 10,000,000 seats for clearly unnecessary segregation, why can't we utilise these spare seats for POTDers? It's Argo V The East Db'n Rednecks in a slightly more interesting game than normal in a dogshit division FFS!! (tm Seadog) Argo are missing the point, spectacularly, and potential revenue once again.

Pfwaa - it's too early for a moan. I'm off for a doggy walk.  

Elias wrote:

How many seats for pay on day?
Why just there though, if police imposed then thats a restriction of trade surely

Good question. Perhaps it's as they're more 'isolated' from the away fans than they otherwise would be. Thus, if the wrong sort of person (who may be banned for example) were to turn up with a beard and sunglasses on the evening then there's only so much damage they could do in the grandstand compared to in the Lyndhurst. There's an obvious joke to be made about demolition costs somewhere   

I recall the bluster and bullshit from the President regarding the closure of the Zoo Corner. That closure was implemented as a crisis measure by Ridsdale, to save a few quid on policing. Webb tried to make out that if that area was ever reopened then D&C Filth were going to charge 250k to police it - regardless of who we happened to be playing or even if the area was opened AT ALL during the season. Him saying that is on record somewhere, but I have it on good authority that that was a pretty far-fetched bending of the truth.

In reality, Argyle have monumentally screwed up by dropping a Family Stand Area in between the home and away fans. We won't be languishing in div 4 forever, and sooner rather than later (tonight is a great example) there will be thousands of £'s being lost because of an obsession with keeping thousands of seats unused.

Brent is blissfully unaware of what a proper Cauldron Atmosphere is, - he's never seen one due to the rediculous positioning of the family area. He is oblivious to the advantages the team on the pitch gain when the Home Park crowd are pitch side and making a proper good racket.

There is absolutely no need to make the horseshoe all-ticket either. Argyle are still in a time warp harking back to the JPT game when the police were laughingly unprepared for...

2000 away fans...
Virtually no old bill inside the ground just prior to kickoff...
The fact we hadn't played them for many years...
Pisspoor police intelligence (sic) that would tell anyone who's the slightest bit savvy that after such a length of time all the old school thugs would have a night out...

I could go on.

Argyle have been suffering with Overkill Policing in local games ever since, due to their utter incompetence years ago in that match.

Tbf our Old Bill and Brent are well-matched. Clueless, short-sighted and incompetent in equal measure.


(Phew, early morning rants are actually vastly under-rated)   

The way this game has been handled already by PAFC is a farce. Just listened again to Radio Devon telling people to get there early and you cant pay on the gate etc. The reality is that if you are not a regular punter and go down to the box office you will be standing in a long line in a car park in the dark for some time. Will definitely put people off. Same old Argo.

Police intelligence is an oxymoron.

5000 was figure plucked out of thin air. Maybe its wrong. Maybe it isn't. We'll never know.

What is true is that X fans won't be there who would have been if capacity was higher. Spending X x £20 (just to get in and never mind programmes, pasties, pints etc). The detail isn't the point here; the concept is.

[quote="spowell92"]That's why I'm confused about criticism of club press. They've released details saying it's effectively ticket only and how you can order your tickets in multiple ways and the times in which you can do this. If you've not been for a couple of years you should probably check the website or find out some details. It appears there'll be nearly no point in POTD anyway because it's a near capacity crowd already, but that's only because of the self imposed restrictions of our capacity. In my opinion your criticisms are misplaced. It really doesn't take much to ring and collect, even I can manage it. [/quote]

I wasn't criticising the club's PR on this. That is a symptom not the cause. The cause is an unnecessarily restrictive low capacity which has created the need for the PR. If the club had not said what it has it would be negligent.

The rest of this post illustrates the problems perfectly.

Imagine this scenario:

Percy Pilgrim, all ticketed up via either ST or by having made the effort to jump through all the hoops in advance, pops into, say, the Cherry Tree for a pre-match pint and once there Percy bumps into Tom, Dick & Harry. "Going Argyle, are you?" "Yes." "Exeter, isn't it? Shall we pop along with Perce, lads?" "Nah. No point. All-ticket, innit. We won't get in." So they don't even bother to try. "You should have checked the website and pre-ordered your ticket but you could still go and queue up at the Box Office, hope to get a ticket, then queue up again at a turnstile on the other side of the ground to get in." "Can't be doing with all that. Is there a match on the telly?"

And so T, D & H don't go. They don't enjoy a famous victory played out in a crackling atmosphere and they don't even think of going on Saturday ot to subsequent games because they enjoyed the night so much.

Replicate that a few times and 5000 customers and £100,000 are probably figures that are far too low.

I still remember the cracking queue Campbell produced when he was managing the stadium and the old Mayflower terrace was still open. I can still see him now, rushing up and down a queue that snaked around and right out of the car park. As luck would have it, that night us cash POTDers sailed through the turnstiles in a second with no queue. The rightly very irate queue was actually mostly fans picking up tickets previously bought over the phone. Many regulars pay that way.

Even the "newbies" are mostly old regulars and ex ST holders thinking of returning on a regular basis. Nothing like hacking off potential returnees. Nothing changes and is probably symptomatic of how football fans are treated in general. Argyle just happen to be worse than most.
That particular night game, I also remember a few of the usual small minded geek ST holders actually guffawing and enjoying  seeing those queuing fans being treated so poorly. "Serves them right !"
Very village as Tringy would say.

Chris Webb 25th July 2012 wrote:

I have been thinking about this one for the last couple of days since I saw it was part of the Clubs summer communications.

Firstly perhaps to answer some of the points / questions on this thread would be useful for posters.

GTTB I would imagine arrangements for the Exeter game will be different because that is one of the few games (I would imagine) where we will sell the whole ground out and I am sure the police will have an input into the seating plan. So – It’s something that can easily be overcome.

Gary Wills – The local constabulary have been consulted on this move because the Club wanted to ensure that it did not impact on the lower policing costs as a result of closing 15-19. The fact that this proposal is going ahead demonstrates that the police are comfortable with the plans.

Pafcintheplace – the opening of this block has nothing to do with the death of zoo corner. The decision to close those blocks was made to save on policing costs. The only way we’ll get those blocks open is if we sell the rest of the ground out then force it to be opened.

Hairy J – Since the closure of blocks 15/16 most of the more vocifourous fans have already moved. Those who are left are small in number and will be two blocks away from the new family end. Hardly intimidating in reality.

John Clark – The Club makes plans for the whole season not just for when we play Exeter. All that is needed for that game is common sense and advice from the police. Just because its an issue for one game means we should throw the idea away?

Bubba – How will it further sterilise the atmosphere? Look back at last season and forward to this season. We have one full away end – Torquay and we were outsung from start to finish. It was actually one of the things that really pushed me to get FV off the ground. That was with the fans close enough to ‘banter’. This season we’ll have Torquay and Exeter (where there will no doubt be as I have pointed out another solution to the family end placing). Other than that there will be one man and a dog in the away end all season. This atmosphere killer is a complete red herring.

Let’s just give it a chance. This actually negatively affects NOBODY. Zoo corner wasn’t going to open anyway, apart from Exeter there will be no issues and the Club will deal with that, family tickets are available across the ground so nobody is forced there and maybe, just maybe it will attract more supporters to Home Park.

Chris

To be fair to Chris I've kept in all the relevant points with regards to the capacity issue and seating away fans next to the family end.

He was right on one thing though, the family end has won awards.

Bloviating is one of my favourite words, and you boys could bloviate for England were you not part of the Kingdom of Cornall.

Just one week ago you played the then league leaders in a top of table clash and managed just over 6k, today you are moaning cos a 15k capacity is not enough for the visit of the mighty ECFC when in Devon's capital the draw of a visit to the Swillydome seems likely to entice less than a thousand?

Not your "Cup Final"?

You are 'avin' a tin bath my old china's.

I don't know what induces the fookin dreamworld you mugs live in but I am glad that it hasn't spread up county.

Zoo corner and the Mayflower were closed so that Brent could get the plans agreed with a much lower capacity than we had previously. If we were actually getting crowds near sellout now there would be a good argument for building bigger and better. If we had an owner that was interested in the club rather than his pension pot we would be seeing those crowds already. Closure of blocks, sticking with Fletch for far too long, sidelining of AFT and division of fans achieved then the piss poor customer service doesn't matter. Staplewallet and co managed to get crowds of 18k plus in there with minimal hassle yet the vastly superior business skills, intelligence and all round niceness of baby James struggle once we get to 10k +, go figure.
Fwiw I was tempted to go tonight with a couple of mates, we decided to all meet at one of our homes with a few beers and the radio on because we don't want the hassle of the ticket office.

Mr Brent stated when he attended the special Cherry Tree cabal that it costs £350 per police officer for the Zoo Corner. The club has no say about how many police - they are told how many & then simply have to pay up. He went on to say that the cost of policing an Exeter game was £30,000.