Do you really think the dirty old players like Norman Hunter and Nobby Stiles could put a challenge in like that, chasing down opponents at such pace and lunging through them with such force? (And that wasn't even a foul, or led to an injury.)
The fitness and conditioning of players means that everything has been taken to the next level.
There is a difference between dirty tackles that are nowhere near the ball, cynical challenges to bring skillful players down, and powerful slide tackles that are liable to break legs.
And I honestly think despite referees and the FA trying to stamp out any bit of danger, and often going overboard, the pace at which the modern game is played at has led to more powerful tackling.
Greenskin
Posts : 6241 Join date : 2011-05-16 Age : 64 Location : Tavistock area
Do you really think the dirty old players like Norman Hunter and Nobby Stiles could put a challenge in like that, chasing down opponents at such pace and lunging through them with such force? (And that wasn't even a foul, or led to an injury.)
The fitness and conditioning of players means that everything has been taken to the next level.
There is a difference between dirty tackles that are nowhere near the ball, cynical challenges to bring skillful players down, and powerful slide tackles that are liable to break legs.
And I honestly think despite referees and the FA trying to stamp out any bit of danger, and often going overboard, the pace at which the modern game is played at has led to more powerful tackling.
Not really a fair argument.There aren't many players in the modern game who can tackle like Steven Gerrard either.Anyway,tackling isn't just about force,it's as much about waiting your moment and timing the challenge perfectly.Lets reverse the issue-do you think Steven Gerrard could have made this tackle?
Jairzinho was moving very fast when Moore made that challenge and there was the added pressure of it being in the penalty area in a very important match against one of the best teams in the history of the game.Swings and roundabouts really,the plain truth is that great players would have been great in any generation,no matter what the prevailing zeitgeist.
I'm not buying into industry propoganda that we've never had it so good.
Indeed, some find the possession based approach more boring. I don't dispute much of what any of you have said in that regard. And yes in terms of physical duals, it was more 'rough and ready' back in the old days.
However when it comes to stuff like pressing and making teams chase possession (you can call it boring tippy tappy and I'm not contradicting you) but that's still what it does. Then scientifically that's more tiring for the players than being still for prolonged amounts of time and only having to deal with what comes their way.
Boring? That's subjective but what is objective is players cover more ground, at a faster pace and need to have higher concentration levels. I say again, if it was harder (or even equal) back in the old days then why was there such a drinking culture then whereas now they need to be professional athletes. If it was easier now then surely now could be the time where they get away with pints before games and big slap up meals. They don't however. The result of fitter players is a game that is more draining for them to play- regardless of if that's more or less entertaining.
Greenskin
Posts : 6241 Join date : 2011-05-16 Age : 64 Location : Tavistock area
I'm not buying into industry propoganda that we've never had it so good.
Indeed, some find the possession based approach more boring. I don't dispute much of what any of you have said in that regard. And yes in terms of physical duals, it was more 'rough and ready' back in the old days.
However when it comes to stuff like pressing and making teams chase possession (you can call it boring tippy tappy and I'm not contradicting you) but that's still what it does. Then scientifically that's more tiring for the players than being still for prolonged amounts of time and only having to deal with what comes their way.
Boring? That's subjective but what is objective is players cover more ground, at a faster pace and need to have higher concentration levels. I say again, if it was harder (or even equal) back in the old days then why was there such a drinking culture then whereas now they need to be professional athletes. If it was easier now then surely now could be the time where they get away with pints before games and big slap up meals. They don't however. The result of fitter players is a game that is more draining for them to play- regardless of if that's more or less entertaining.
I've been following football since the mid 1960's and it's news to me that players ever indulged in pints and big slap up meals immediately before games in that time.Just to take the Argyle management as an example,there is absolutely no way that people like Tony Waiters and Alan Brown,who were in charge of our 1974/75 promotion team and fitness fanatics themselves,would have allowed that to happen.Most clubs had a rule in operation that players could not drink after Wednesday and the punishments for anyone caught abusing that rule were heavy.Easy to make sweeping generalisations about generational differences-i seem to recall that a few Coventry players were carpeted for curfew breaking down here when we in the CCC,so it may not be true to say that pro footballers of recent times are neccessarily dedicated bastions in comparison to the ones of times gone by.Kemp,in his spell as manager in the early nineties,introduced the idea of chicken and pasta for the pre-match meal,so that isn't a new innovation either-the presence of people like Sam Parkin and Neil Mellor on the pitch in more recent times would also indicate that pie and chips as part of the staple diet hasn't entirely been discarded.No doubt the game has got faster in general terms-a couple of factors would seem to have some relevance,namely the back pass rule and [without being stereotypical in any way] the advent of black players over the past 30 years-but advances are made in any sport-who is to say that Usain Bolt in more talented than Jesse Owens was,in spite of the obvious statistical discrepancy in their respective timings?
Look Sam, if the likes of moody Ruben Reid and scuffer Mickey Evans can succeed in the modern game, I propose the need for all this fast as lightning/fit as a fiddle/covering acres of ground thing is rather overplayed. The athlete thing is a fashion imperative from those industries that influence football and feed off it and other sports. Dieticians, personal trainers and legal drug dealing companies are making a fortune, along with the Prozone analytical bunch as well. The Olympics have had to change the running track materials, the running shoes, invent new bikes and swimming costume technology to keep the records tumbling, the viewing public engaged and their industries bringing home the bacon. And that's before we even get to the media big boy paymasters who naturally want THE fittest specimens to adorn their screens and magazines. It's a circus. One day, tastes will change, out will go the muscle men, and laconic style will step in to sell the product. It's a rhythm thing. A fashion.
While I'm at it, look up Woody Allen's film The Sleeper. A great cynical piece on fashion in health, life, diet and performance. Health nut Woody wakes from his cryogenic suspension centuries in the future and finds his beloved nuts and fruit is deemed poison, and corporate fried chips and burgers are all the health rage. Check it out, it's funny.
The sleeper is a great film, I only went to see it to get off with my sisters mate but it was worth it. As for strikers that can't do a hundred metres in 6 seconds, how about BWP? He would hardly move some games but he would be there in the right spot when the ball came in and stick it away.
Sex sells most things Iggy. Being a physical specimen in the 60s and 70s made you a bit of a nerd. It was the age of boozing George Best, womanising Frank Worthington, and gambling Stan Bowles. Charles Atlas was nowhere. ( Knecht ? ) I see "they" are saying now unsaturated fats are OK.
While I'm at it, look up Woody Allen's film The Sleeper. A great cynical piece on fashion in health, life, diet and performance. Health nut Woody wakes from his cryogenic suspension centuries in the future and finds his beloved nuts and fruit is deemed poison, and corporate fried chips and burgers are all the health rage. Check it out, it's funny.
Look Sam, if the likes of moody Ruben Reid and scuffer Mickey Evans can succeed in the modern game, I propose the need for all this fast as lightning/fit as a fiddle/covering acres of ground thing is rather overplayed. The athlete thing is a fashion imperative from those industries that influence football and feed off it and other sports. Dieticians, personal trainers and legal drug dealing companies are making a fortune, along with the Prozone analytical bunch as well. The Olympics have had to change the running track materials, the running shoes, invent new bikes and swimming costume technology to keep the records tumbling, the viewing public engaged and their industries bringing home the bacon. And that's before we even get to the media big boy paymasters who naturally want THE fittest specimens to adorn their screens and magazines. It's a circus. One day, tastes will change, out will go the muscle men, and laconic style will step in to sell the product. It's a rhythm thing. A fashion. While I'm at it, look up Woody Allen's film The Sleeper. A great cynical piece on fashion in health, life, diet and performance. Health nut Woody wakes from his cryogenic suspension centuries in the future and finds his beloved nuts and fruit is deemed poison, and corporate fried chips and burgers are all the health rage. Check it out, it's funny.
You only have to look at the mid 90s. Burgers, loaded and lager lager lager lager. That interview with fowler and mcmannaman. What goes around comes around.
Do you really think the dirty old players like Norman Hunter and Nobby Stiles could put a challenge in like that, chasing down opponents at such pace and lunging through them with such force? (And that wasn't even a foul, or led to an injury.)
The fitness and conditioning of players means that everything has been taken to the next level.
There is a difference between dirty tackles that are nowhere near the ball, cynical challenges to bring skillful players down, and powerful slide tackles that are liable to break legs.
And I honestly think despite referees and the FA trying to stamp out any bit of danger, and often going overboard, the pace at which the modern game is played at has led to more powerful tackling.
Not really a fair argument.There aren't many players in the modern game who can tackle like Steven Gerrard either.Anyway,tackling isn't just about force,it's as much about waiting your moment and timing the challenge perfectly.Lets reverse the issue-do you think Steven Gerrard could have made this tackle?
Jairzinho was moving very fast when Moore made that challenge and there was the added pressure of it being in the penalty area in a very important match against one of the best teams in the history of the game.Swings and roundabouts really,the plain truth is that great players would have been great in any generation,no matter what the prevailing zeitgeist.
I am not saying tackling is 'better', or whatever, simply qualifying my statement that tackling is harder and more intense nowadays, which several posters have jumped to disagree with.
That's a great tackle by Moore, clean, swift, vital and retrieves possession. But he didn't go through him like Ryan Shawcross on Aaron Ramsey, did he, resulting in a tib and fib clean break, and a year out in physio rehabilitation.
The likes of Norman Hunter, Tommy Smith, Graeme Souness and the like - sure they wiped opponents out, and were dirty, and played with nastiness. A lot of the time they left the ground purely with the intention to leave an opponent on the floor, regardless if the ball was there to be won or not.
However the pace of the game back then was not what it is now. In the modern game, a challenge at full steam can be a leg breaker, whether the ball is won or not - with players charging around with such intensity.
Here's another good example of what I mean. One player sprinting out with the ball. One player sprinting into a challenge. The challenge being made based on judgement that is getting harder to time with each step. This is just a routine challenge in the modern Premier League nowadays - I think it might have warranted a yellow. Yet in my mind, that is infinitely more risky than Graham Sounness hacking down someone when the ball is not there - because the weight of the tackling player, the force and the momentum could easily snap a leg.
Subject: Re: Conor Hourihane/Lewis Alessandra/Reuben Reid Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:06 am
Hugh Watt wrote:
Winter Green wrote:
Look Sam, if the likes of moody Ruben Reid and scuffer Mickey Evans can succeed in the modern game, I propose the need for all this fast as lightning/fit as a fiddle/covering acres of ground thing is rather overplayed. The athlete thing is a fashion imperative from those industries that influence football and feed off it and other sports. Dieticians, personal trainers and legal drug dealing companies are making a fortune, along with the Prozone analytical bunch as well. The Olympics have had to change the running track materials, the running shoes, invent new bikes and swimming costume technology to keep the records tumbling, the viewing public engaged and their industries bringing home the bacon. And that's before we even get to the media big boy paymasters who naturally want THE fittest specimens to adorn their screens and magazines. It's a circus. One day, tastes will change, out will go the muscle men, and laconic style will step in to sell the product. It's a rhythm thing. A fashion. While I'm at it, look up Woody Allen's film The Sleeper. A great cynical piece on fashion in health, life, diet and performance. Health nut Woody wakes from his cryogenic suspension centuries in the future and finds his beloved nuts and fruit is deemed poison, and corporate fried chips and burgers are all the health rage. Check it out, it's funny.
You only have to look at the mid 90s. Burgers, loaded and lager lager lager lager. That interview with fowler and mcmannaman. What goes around comes around.
Yep- I have to agree.
The idea that all these dieticians, personal trainers, gym and analysis technology are only making so much out of football because of a fashion imperative is far fetched to me. I know football clubs have a tendency to shit money away but how much money do they REALLY make from people who go to football who are attracted by this 'fitness brand' compared to the amount they spend on it? Not enough to justify WinterGreen's theory imo. I can't agree that tastes will change and all fitness measures will go out of fashion and stop being used- I think they're used for practical and pragmatic reasons in that they're needed. I guess time will tell whether they're all still here in ten years or not.
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: Conor Hourihane/Lewis Alessandra/Reuben Reid Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:21 am
OK, let's talk the "dirty foul" then. In the "old days" the object was to actually do damage, up to, and including breaking a player's leg. It was seen as a man thing, a brute thing. That sort of thing rarely happens these days as it is far more culturally unacceptable within the changing room. Call it modern players' union health and safety if you like. The same applies to the "Uzzell" elbow routine.
Modern challenges are eye fests and I liken it to tumbling in professional wrestling. Looks more than it is. Players expect it and are often flying through the air before anyone has touched them. Most players being tackled used to dig in and stand their ground come what may until the Germans and South Americans showed the way forward with the theatrics. It's entertainment. It's almost subconciously choreographed. Also, the older we get, the more, as spectators, we wince at anything physical. We forget how physical youth is and always has been.
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: Conor Hourihane/Lewis Alessandra/Reuben Reid Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:35 am
PS ... I didn't say dieticians etc were a fashion imperative, I implied they were a business imperative within the game. And within that business imperative that actually gives momentum to a huge wider industrial consumer market ( look at present consumer energy drinks that started in professional tennis 30 years ago ), their advice will change over the years due to the latest fashion or scientific paper that someone has put out to contradict former scientific fact. It's how it is. It's business escalation. Why let kids drink tap water when there's money to be made from bottling it in some far flung mountain. And of course, now we're at last rightly seeing some "energy drinks" being slated for their sugar content. Do you know what Tony Waiters consumed in the 1970s for energy before his hugely publicised Westcountry marathon run ? Mars bars ! And there has always been much talk of those little pills that were put on top of each Liverpool players' kit in the Anfield dressing room under Shankly.
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: Conor Hourihane/Lewis Alessandra/Reuben Reid Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:46 am
I think that much of this debate is generated by the cynical, grumpy and more miserable older men folk of which I am a very proud member. I don't think that anything (other than motorbikes) is as good as it was in the 'good old days' and 'these days' are certainly NOT better in any way, shape or form.
Today's players would probably slaughter yesterdays players while playing on today's pitch. But if today's players played yesterday's players on yesterday's pitch, they would be off within minutes complaining of a broken nail or a single hair loss.
It's a revolving argument that nobody will win, but what I do know is that on the rare occasion that I attend HP these days, is that today's football does not give me the same buzz as it did in the 'good old days'.
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: Conor Hourihane/Lewis Alessandra/Reuben Reid Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:49 am
and another thing...
How about PAFC to be the first football Club to stock up and sell Viagra to its fans, they would make a killing!
Do you really think the dirty old players like Norman Hunter and Nobby Stiles could put a challenge in like that, chasing down opponents at such pace and lunging through them with such force? (And that wasn't even a foul, or led to an injury.)
The fitness and conditioning of players means that everything has been taken to the next level.
There is a difference between dirty tackles that are nowhere near the ball, cynical challenges to bring skillful players down, and powerful slide tackles that are liable to break legs.
And I honestly think despite referees and the FA trying to stamp out any bit of danger, and often going overboard, the pace at which the modern game is played at has led to more powerful tackling.
i dont recall broken legs back when, i see more nowadays, i think because they only use newspapers for shin pads.
i would very often be slid at by a striker when i was playing (in goal). my shin pads were made of concrete (not wholly acurate), so the only player injured tended to be the striker
...... i dont recall broken legs back when, i see more nowadays, i think because they only use newspapers for shin pads.
i would very often be slid at by a striker when i was playing (in goal). my shin pads were made of concrete (not wholly acurate), so the only player injured tended to be the striker
I remember playing in a game where a player went down injured. After treatment he got up and played on for a while before collapsing again & was carried off. It turned out that he had broken his leg & by playing on he caused significant life-long damage.
I was a keeper as well. I badly dislocated a finger, tore my anterior cruciate, broke a shoulder, got concussion and was knocked out a few times. But I was a hero. I still have a bad finger, a knee that puffs up occasionally. No lasting brain-damage though. No lasting brain damage though. My brain is OK I think. No lasting brain damage.
i think i was lucky. winded a couple of times, did my cruciate playing tennis (!). broke feet bones from kicking the old leather balls too hard. broke my fingers whilst on lsd, collar bone mountain biking. my brain is addled from scrumpy and mary j, and scrumpy
i think i was lucky. winded a couple of times, did my cruciate playing tennis (!). broke feet bones from kicking the old leather balls too hard. broke my fingers whilst on lsd, collar bone mountain biking. my brain is addled from scrumpy and mary j, and scrumpy
Now there is a story that deserves telling (maybe not on Peggy's Mundane Thread). I got a life-long interest in cows the same way.
i was lying on my back, arms outstretched, feeling the love that the turf beneath me was emitting. drunken mate stood on my hand, i heard them crack but didnt feel a thing. until the next day. was in goal, first save brought home the reality. we lost that one 19-1. didnt help that my centre back had only one working eye. he kept losing sight of the ball in his blind spot. I signed for ardley athletic shortly afterwards, won 4 titles in a row.
fingers still twinge and they look right wonky, cause i didnt get them reset. wife likes them though
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