Another Grim Northern Shithole Match Fred

Greenskin wrote:

Rickler wrote:

Greenskin wrote:

Czarcasm wrote:

Rickler wrote:

Mrrapson wrote:

I think if we did end up promoted it could be the wrong thing to happen. It would increase expectation but I don't think the board would be ready to commit the required money to sustain a higher league.

God help us with attitudes and fans like this.

Should the minor miracle of promotion occur, and the no-marks in the Boardroom honestly can't cobble together a budget of sorts to contest a season in the 3rd feckin division, then we may as well all pack it in now.

To be fair to Mr R,he isn't actually saying that he agrees with the board if they didn't make money available should the club get promotion,he's surmising that would be the likely scenario.Wouldn't mind hearing why he thinks that would be the case.

But he seems to be saying because of that, he would rather not be promoted in the first place!

This notion of laying 'groundwork' or building foundations etc is just rubbish.  You have a chance and you take it!

I can't imagine Saint fans a few seasons ago saying, I don't want to go to the Championship because we might get promoted to the Prem straight away, and we won't be ready!

Absolutely agree,Swansea would be another example,probably even better in fact.I just got the impression that Mr Rapson was being a bit cynical about what the true intentions are at the top of the club,i may be wrong.

Even giving Rappo the benefit of doubt, it's symptomatic of him and his ilk...

I presented my first scenario poorly.  It's much worse than I first laid out...

It's not that Rappo worries we might go up two divisions in two years...  It's that he and some fellow fans fear going up even one division maybe too much for us..

We fear going up at all!

That is feckin insane!

Oh give it a rest Rickler ffs.

I don't believe that going up would be right, I genuinely and personally don't believe that JB ad the crew have a ful undestanding of what financial input would be required if we went up.

I would love for us to go up, I don't want us to be a basement club at all, who does?

Just to point out Rickler, you don't know me, we've never met and you know zilch about how i think or what i do.

Greenskin wrote:

Czarcasm wrote:

Rickler wrote:

Mrrapson wrote:

I think if we did end up promoted it could be the wrong thing to happen. It would increase expectation but I don't think the board would be ready to commit the required money to sustain a higher league.

God help us with attitudes and fans like this.

Should the minor miracle of promotion occur, and the no-marks in the Boardroom honestly can't cobble together a budget of sorts to contest a season in the 3rd feckin division, then we may as well all pack it in now.

To be fair to Mr R,he isn't actually saying that he agrees with the board if they didn't make money available should the club get promotion,he's surmising that would be the likely scenario.Wouldn't mind hearing why he thinks that would be the case.

GS, you're right, I'm not saying i wouldn't like it just that IMHO the board wouldn't cope with the differrence in cash input required. Lets face it if we did get promoted attendances may go up by like 1000 per week but costs would go up by about 35%. Being run on a shoestring wouldn't work and we'd come crashing back down again.

Are you're suggesting that if promoted, Argyle wouldn't have financial capability and this would threaten the Club's future Leigh?

How can getting promoted threaten the clubs future?

Getting promoted means 15k+ gates for the last say 4-5 home games, increased takings in the club shop etc. bigger games the following year and more TV money.

Even if Brent refused to increase funding what happens? we get relegated - even though of course our crowds alone should make us competitive.

Our current average in L2 is higher than 16 clubs in L1 this season and our crowds are higher than the current league leaders Brentford and Leyton Orient.

It is simply madness to not want to play in as high a division as possible and give it a go.

Mrrapson wrote:

Greenskin wrote:

Czarcasm wrote:

Rickler wrote:

Mrrapson wrote:

I think if we did end up promoted it could be the wrong thing to happen. It would increase expectation but I don't think the board would be ready to commit the required money to sustain a higher league.

God help us with attitudes and fans like this.

Should the minor miracle of promotion occur, and the no-marks in the Boardroom honestly can't cobble together a budget of sorts to contest a season in the 3rd feckin division, then we may as well all pack it in now.

To be fair to Mr R,he isn't actually saying that he agrees with the board if they didn't make money available should the club get promotion,he's surmising that would be the likely scenario.Wouldn't mind hearing why he thinks that would be the case.

GS, you're right, I'm not saying i wouldn't like it just that IMHO the board wouldn't cope with the differrence in cash input required. Lets face it if we did get promoted attendances may go up by like 1000 per week but costs would go up by about 35%. Being run on a shoestring wouldn't work and we'd come crashing back down again.

 The teams that got promoted last year from this league are currently 5th 8th 13th and 14th in league 1.

If Brent and his merry band of Boardmembers can't purport to emulate something like that, then I say it again, we all may as well give up.

All but eight of the current League One clubs have a lower average attendance figure than Argyle in League two.

The main problem would appear to be an owner who having spent nothing, is increasing the club's debt and is boxing the ground in , thus stifling any future ambition and 'belief' from potential supporters.
Any future revenue from the clusterfuck including HP , will largely go into his pocket and if it fails, no doubt the football club will suffer most.
This self sustaining model is all well and good if the slate is clean and the new facilities are inspiring and will benefit the club financially.......... but it isn't and they won't.
That's why he rewards the bucket rattlers.

GOB no that's not what I'm suggesting at all. I'm suggesting that Jb wouldn't want to invest what would be required to further advance is.

Pokesdown- our attendances didn't stay at 15000 in the championship so there's no way we would bring that in for league one.

You must have even less faith in Brent than many of us on ATD have then Leigh.

The last time we were promoted from this division we did so with a very substantial profit and a considerably less well off board of directors, maybe Brent would be taking the profit rather than allowing the Club to keep it?

Ha, don't think that is possible gob is it?

Brent has invested a lot of his own money to balance the books, he's not afraid of investment, all I'm saying is that I think the difference between the leagues may prevent him from investing as much, he will want to see the fans place faith with big attendances and that won't happen.

The last time we gained promotion from this division the Club required no investment, we never had a board capable of investing?

Mrrapson wrote:

GOB no that's not what I'm suggesting at all. I'm suggesting that Jb wouldn't want to invest what would be required to further advance is.

Pokesdown- our attendances didn't stay at 15000 in the championship so there's no way we would bring that in for league one.

Attendance figures for clubs like Argyle will rise with success but only be sustained and grown through clear cash backed ambition. That is why the last regime was doomed to failure. It got greedy.
Clubs/councils of potentially big clubs that have invested, are rewarded by increased attendance figures. Hull, Swansea, Cardiff, Brighton, Reading..................... to name a few. All clubs with similar potential and attendance histories to Argyle.

Why can't these people understand that just like Argyle, all these clubs needed to send out a sign, a statement of intent, to the potential fanbase ?

If saddling the club with yet more future repayable debt, means investing his own money then yeah, he's certainly done that.

Mrrapson wrote:

GOB no that's not what I'm suggesting at all. I'm suggesting that Jb wouldn't want to invest what would be required to further advance is.

Pokesdown- our attendances didn't stay at 15000 in the championship so there's no way we would bring that in for league one.

Never said we would but we would get 15k crowds for our last 4 games in this division.

I don't think we would. I reckon 12k maximum.

Why should our costs rise by 35% if we were promoted?

The evidence from our plummet down the divisions is that income took the hit while costs stayed annoyingly high. Surely costs could stay roughly similar if we made the journey in the opposite direction and income would rise.

I would have thought that a far stronger case could be made for the (null) hypothesis that we cannot afford not to be promoted.

Mrrapson wrote:

I don't think we would. I reckon 12k maximum.

We max out at 16000. Given segregation and unsold away tickets we'd be very lucky to see 15000 under any circumstances.

12000 isn't ambitious but it is realistic and it could be bettered.

Mrrapson wrote:

Ha, don't think that is possible gob is it?

Brent has invested a lot of his own money to balance the books, he's not afraid of investment, all I'm saying is that I think the difference between the leagues may prevent him from investing as much, he will want to see the fans place faith with big attendances and that won't happen.

Investment my arse, investing is actually putting your own money up to strengthen the team or club. Brent has loaned money to the club because even with the larger than average crowds for this league we are unable to compete with teams like Rochdale who attract crowds of 2800. His business plan would get thrown out by any bank manager assessing his business plan, it is completely underfunded, it always has been and his loans are plugging the gaps.

Hilarious if it was'nt so sad, the thought that plymouth argyle are not big enough to compete in the third division! sell the club brent instead of killing it with your shit village, and get out of our club.

Mrrapson wrote:

Brent has invested a lot of his own money to balance the books,

Er, no he hasn't.

What is it with you people that so many of you are so naive?

He doesn't invest "his own money" and even if he did use "his own money" it would have to be in the form of a gift to "balance the books", not a loan.

Lord Tisdale wrote:

Mrrapson wrote:

Brent has invested a lot of his own money to balance the books,

Er, no he hasn't.

What is it with you people that so many of you are so naive?

He doesn't invest "his own money" and even if he did use "his own money" it would have to be in the form of a gift to "balance the books", not a loan.

Accountancy obviously not your strong point Tiddles. An investment in a limited company only need be put in as equity. It certainly doesn't have to be a gift. It's what virtually every self respecting businessman used to do before capitalism lost the little ethical practice it had.
But, yes, Brent is as likely to 'invest' as Todd and Gardner are to just throw in the towel with the money they are still owed. He's just acting as a banking cash flow/guarantor, no more, no less. Investment, Rapper ?    Your thoughts on the same old investment/fickle fans/small club routine coincides exactly with Newell. No surprise there then, and it would appear you lot have now taken the "on message" strategy to the level of Bliar's old  Millbank glory days. And the main tenet is Brent is an investing philanthropic angel.
PS. I did laugh this week when I found out our Jimmy get's quite upset if members of the AFT and PASB in their meetings with him don't call him James. 

Mrrapson wrote:

Oh give it a rest Rickler ffs.

I don't believe that going up would be right, I genuinely and personally don't believe that JB ad the crew have a ful undestanding of what financial input would be required if we went up.

I would love for us to go up, I don't want us to be a basement club at all, who does?

Just to point out Rickler, you don't know me, we've never met and you know zilch about how i think or what i do.

I know what you think because you just told me, idiot!

Mrrapson wrote:

I don't believe that going up would be right....

You've said pretty much the same thing twice now, it's pretty obvious what you think.

And what you think is stupid, petty, ignorant and provincial, and small minded.

Oh... and take your own advice.. Apply your final sentence to Brent.

Winter Green wrote:

Lord Tisdale wrote:

Mrrapson wrote:

Brent has invested a lot of his own money to balance the books,

Er, no he hasn't.

What is it with you people that so many of you are so naive?

He doesn't invest "his own money" and even if he did use "his own money" it would have to be in the form of a gift to "balance the books", not a loan.

Accountancy obviously not your strong point Tiddles.

I was merely attempting to keep it real for the likes of Rapson who I am informed would struggle to walk and chew gum at the same time, the implication being that equity investment in a footy club like Muff would effectively be a donation as I doubt you have ever legitimately paid a dividend.

I do admire Harry P on a purely mercenary level and not because he is screwing the Muff, I believe you could easily be a lot worse off, that's not to say of course that you couldn't be a lot better off, what tickles me is the dichotomy which exists between the factions, he either has to be a candidate for sainthood or the very spawn of Satan himself. Shirley the most likely answer is that he is somewhere between the two.

Pokesdown wrote:

How can getting promoted threaten the clubs future?

Getting promoted means 15k+ gates for the last say 4-5 home games, increased takings in the club shop etc. bigger games the following year and more TV money.

Even if Brent refused to increase funding what happens? we get relegated - even though of course our crowds alone should make us competitive.

Our current average in L2 is higher than 16 clubs in L1 this season and our crowds are higher than the current league leaders Brentford and Leyton Orient.

It is simply madness to not want to play in as high a division as possible and give it a go.

This.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

Why should our costs rise by 35% if we were promoted?

The evidence from our plummet down the divisions is that income took the hit while costs stayed annoyingly high. Surely costs could stay roughly similar if we made the journey in the opposite direction and income would rise.

I would have thought that a far stronger case could be made for the (null) hypothesis that we cannot afford not to be promoted.

And this.

I just don't buy this line that we'd be worse off going up, the facts just don't stack up. If clubs are better off in lower leagues, why didn't we keep Fletcher in a job and secure our place in the conference?

For League One we have: I'd say at least another 1,000 STs plus a lot more POTDers from both Argyle and away fans. More matchday spending at the ground, more TV money and the leftovers of the gate/TV from the inevitable boom that is the end of season dash to the play-offs.

And if we were only to aim for 20th place and League One survival, I really doubt expenditure would have to be increased much at all. If we loosely say that we've probably got about the 7th or so biggest budget in this league then I don't think that would translate to much less than 20th in League One. I personally think it'd be far more profitable and conductive to the debt-reduction than staying down would.

I agree with SFD, the real danger comes from not going up. I think the budget would get reduced if not drastically then certainly noticeably if we don't go up this season. All talk of a nice cosy mid-table finish to 'lay the foundations' to build upon next year is all well and good if the likes of McCormick, Nelson, Hourihane, Reid and all aren't here next year and we're forced into signing downgraded replacements. Nope, going up this year is definitely to be aimed for in my book.

Well articulated Greensam!

Read and digest, Rappo...

There is an Argyle model that doesn't require doffing your cap or someone's shirt auctioning charity.