Argyle financial Report

The thing we found out to our cost with the last regime was that we are never told the full extent of what is going on. These accounts are very limited and do not really focus on any points, but just a generalisation. Although this is legal (not morally) I still think that there is a lot that we are not being told, especially as there hasn't been any transparency (or forthcoming information) up till now and not from the club. This means we are no more educated to what is happening now as we were before which still carries a worry as to what is really going on.
The way in which some are carrying on as if there is nothing to worry about, would suggest that they know the full story behind the accounts and are genuinely optimistic or have other agendas. Or they have been told what they want to hear, which is not quite the real story, and once JB leaves it all behind we will once again be in the deep end. Therefore there is something to worry about.

The bottom line is that the £3 million + owed to the "football creditors" (which includes the staff don't forget) has to be paid in full within 3 years come October.

It can't be "rolled over" or added to other debt and it's not just a case of paying the interest on the total sum. And before anyone asks, there's no way anyone will lend the club the money to pay it off.

just imagine the conversation:

So, you want to borrow £3 million. What for?

To pay the debts that sent the club into Administration

I see, and what security do you have? Do you own your own ground or any other assets?

No

And what's your gross profit & annual income? Interest and repayment of capital would be at least £6000,000 a year

Oh the football club hasn't made a profit for years (and years) but our annual income , the gate money, that is, is about £3 million a year. But of course wages, rent (for the ground we don't own) and all other expenses come out of that- that's why we don't make a profit.

So, to summarise, you want to borrow an amount equal to you annual income, to pay off debts that sent the club into administration before. And you'll make the repayments out of the profit that you don't make? Shut the door behind you.

Grovehill wrote:

The bottom line is that the £3 million + owed to the "football creditors" (which includes the staff don't forget) has to be paid in full within 3 years come October.

It can't be "rolled over" or added to other debt and it's not just a case of paying the interest on the total sum. And before anyone asks, there's no way anyone will lend the club the money to pay it off.

just imagine the conversation:

So, you want to borrow £3 million. What for?

To pay the debts that sent the club into Administration

I see, and what security do you have? Do you own your own ground or any other assets?

No

And what's your gross profit & annual income? Interest and repayment of capital would be at least £6000,000 a year

Oh the football club hasn't made a profit for years (and years) but  our annual income , the gate money, that is, is about £3 million a year. But of course wages, rent (for the ground we don't own) and all other expenses come out of that- that's why we don't make a profit.

So, to summarise, you want to borrow an amount equal to you annual income, to pay off debts that sent the club into administration before. And you'll make the repayments out of the profit that you don't make? Shut the door behind you.  

Don't worry, dear boy. It looks to me, like the possible next 'owner'[once the reluctant bidder has reluctantly moved on] is already attracting high rates of interest from the ever so grateful Avivas.
Who knows, maybe for the first time,he'll attract international interest and the club will be secure.

Grovehill wrote:

The bottom line is that the £3 million + owed to the "football creditors" (which includes the staff don't forget) has to be paid in full within 3 years come October.

It can't be "rolled over" or added to other debt and it's not just a case of paying the interest on the total sum. And before anyone asks, there's no way anyone will lend the club the money to pay it off.

just imagine the conversation:

So, you want to borrow £3 million. What for?

To pay the debts that sent the club into Administration

I see, and what security do you have? Do you own your own ground or any other assets?

No

And what's your gross profit & annual income? Interest and repayment of capital would be at least £6000,000 a year

Oh the football club hasn't made a profit for years (and years) but  our annual income , the gate money, that is, is about £3 million a year. But of course wages, rent (for the ground we don't own) and all other expenses come out of that- that's why we don't make a profit.

So, to summarise, you want to borrow an amount equal to you annual income, to pay off debts that sent the club into administration before. And you'll make the repayments out of the profit that you don't make? Shut the door behind you.  

How much 'could' the club pay off in a season, in your estimations? £1m is a shedload of wonga, but could they do, say, half that if they really squeezed the budget?

Could they not shift some of it to other, less immediate areas?

Let's face the facts. If the reluctant bidder, who 'gets it' with a quivering lip, really cares about the future of the football club, he wouldn't box it in down a draughty alleyway, with a ministand and schools n dentists within the ground. He would eat into his development profits by a few million [Lord knows how much he'll make out of the Plymouth developments in total]and provide the WG's vision of the HHP development.
How much extra did his experts say it would cost 2/3 million ? With a properly finished stadium at the centre of the development, with room to expand further, the wider public might just be persuaded that at last, Argyle were showing ambition and begin to buy in. The likes of Reading, Hull, Swansea, Brighton etc have clearly illustrated the feelgood effect of a decent stadium. It's a statement of intent.
The statement going out from the present clusterfuck is that we are 'village'and we know it.
Only the terminally addicted, the wannabes and the dim will want to know.

Mock Cuncher wrote:

Grovehill wrote:

The bottom line is that the £3 million + owed to the "football creditors" (which includes the staff don't forget) has to be paid in full within 3 years come October.

It can't be "rolled over" or added to other debt and it's not just a case of paying the interest on the total sum. And before anyone asks, there's no way anyone will lend the club the money to pay it off.

just imagine the conversation:

So, you want to borrow £3 million. What for?

To pay the debts that sent the club into Administration

I see, and what security do you have? Do you own your own ground or any other assets?

No

And what's your gross profit & annual income? Interest and repayment of capital would be at least £6000,000 a year

Oh the football club hasn't made a profit for years (and years) but  our annual income , the gate money, that is, is about £3 million a year. But of course wages, rent (for the ground we don't own) and all other expenses come out of that- that's why we don't make a profit.

So, to summarise, you want to borrow an amount equal to you annual income, to pay off debts that sent the club into administration before. And you'll make the repayments out of the profit that you don't make? Shut the door behind you.  

How much 'could' the club pay off in a season, in your estimations? £1m is a shedload of wonga, but could they do, say, half that if they really squeezed the budget?

Could they not shift some of it to other, less immediate areas?

You (like so many others) really are missing the point. When the final payment of the FC debt falls due, it ALL has to be PAID, IN FULL, no ifs, no buts, no rescheduling, no "just paying the interest"

IT GETS PAID OFF IN FULL-ALL £3MILLION+ -AS PER THE AGREEMENT THAT TOOK THE CLUB OUT OF ADMINISTRATION OR THE GOLDEN SHARE GETS TAKEN AWAY AND PLYMOUTH ARGYLE FC IS NO MORE

cant see how £3m is to be found ? even the match box stadium wont give us that return in that time.

Grovehill wrote:

You (like so many others) really are missing the point. When the final payment of the FC debt falls due, it ALL has to be PAID, IN FULL, no ifs, no buts, no rescheduling, no "just paying the interest"

IT GETS PAID OFF IN FULL-ALL £3MILLION+ -AS PER THE AGREEMENT THAT TOOK THE CLUB OUT OF ADMINISTRATION OR THE GOLDEN SHARE GETS TAKEN AWAY AND PLYMOUTH ARGYLE FC IS NO MORE

Has this scenario already been set in stone?

Whilst technically speaking the FL would be well within their rights to take this stance, it wouldn't be in the best interests of all concerned.  It certainly wont benefit the players who will still be owed money.  I would've thought the more likely outcome would be to renegotiate repayment and severely punish the club (huge points deduction, sanctions and whatnot).

Either way, the supporters will get what they deserve for backing this crap if the money isn't found.

What if Brent /the club was to buy back the ground for £1.6m and borrow against it  

Coxside_Green wrote:

Grovehill wrote:

You (like so many others) really are missing the point. When the final payment of the FC debt falls due, it ALL has to be PAID, IN FULL, no ifs, no buts, no rescheduling, no "just paying the interest"

IT GETS PAID OFF IN FULL-ALL £3MILLION+ -AS PER THE AGREEMENT THAT TOOK THE CLUB OUT OF ADMINISTRATION OR THE GOLDEN SHARE GETS TAKEN AWAY AND PLYMOUTH ARGYLE FC IS NO MORE

Has this scenario already been set in stone?

Whilst technically speaking the FL would be well within their rights to take this stance, it wouldn't be in the best interests of all concerned.  It certainly wont benefit the players who will still be owed money.  I would've thought the more likely outcome would be to renegotiate repayment and severely punish the club (huge points deduction, sanctions and whatnot).

Either way, the supporters will get what they deserve for backing this crap if the money isn't found.

What if Brent /the club was to buy back the ground for £1.6m and borrow against it  

There's an awful lot of financial naivity about.

If the FC debt doesn't get settled on the due date, it'll be the ex-players and the clubs that are owed money that'll be pushing for stern action to be taken. Because they will know (as will the FL) that if one club is allowed to postpone the FC debt repayment for 5 years and then just ignore it, every other Club that has a cash flow problem will be clamouring to go down the same route. The whole concept of the FC debt having to be paid off before a Club comes out of Administration was designed to make clubs act in a more financially prudent manner- if bending the rules in Argyle's case is seen to backfire, there will be a lot of shit hitting the fan.

As for Nikki's statement that it's nothing to worry about because it's not due for years- well why doesn't he put his money where his mouth is and buy the club?

Because he knows full well, that barring a miracle (or home & away cup ties against Man Utd.) there isn't a cat in hell's chance that the club will pay even a percentage of this from it's own resources. If the football club is losing money now, there's no way it can pay off debts without increasing it's indebtedness.

As for JB buying the ground back and raising a loan with the ground as security (apart from being how the club got in this mess in the first place) it would make far more sense for him just to pay off the FC debt if he wanted to.

He doesn't want to though- because there's nothing in it for him, is there.

  Which is the main reason he wants the stand to start being built in September, he wants to be no where near the club when the debt is due, he wouldn't be the first successful business man to be so callous would he?

It blatantly appears very much like some sort of 'gentlemans' agreement is in place to hand the club over to nikkk, newell etc when brent f***s off after building his ministand boxed in by his pile of shite HHP 'development'. In which case then the 3 million debt will be the nikks, newells and webbs to pay back immediately?

Would Newell even be stupid enough to take on a toxic debt? I suppose that one scenario is that Nikk coughs up say a million then takes out a loan of about 32% for the other £4m, JB could reluctantly fade into the background after completing a project that has cost him virtually nothing to deliver, and we wait for the inevitable administration. I have always thought that another admin. period is coming ever since JB bought the club, even a trainee financial planner would realise that the sums don't add up. All teams at this level not only need good gates they need an owner to bung in a few quid here and there. We have to pay a £5m debt and try to compete with other teams, only the Man. Utd draw will save us.

Too true Iggy...but and it's a rather large but; firstly Argyle have to safely navigate through two rounds of the FA Cup.

That has provem to be rather problematical of late.

Euromillions anyone?

Iggy wrote:

Would Newell even be stupid enough to take on a toxic debt? I suppose that one scenario is that Nikk coughs up say a million then takes out a loan of about 32% for the other £4m, JB could reluctantly fade into the background after completing a project that has cost him virtually nothing to deliver, and we wait for the inevitable administration. I have always thought that another admin. period is coming ever since JB bought the club, even a trainee financial planner would realise that the sums don't add up. All teams at this level not only need good gates they need an owner to bung in a few quid here and there. We have to pay a £5m debt and try to compete with other teams, only the Man. Utd draw will save us.

Even if we did get the ManU draw i'd be amazed if Jimmy put our slice towards the club debt. I reckon he'd consult Mrs B, she'd look him in the eye, his lip would start quivering and the cash would go straight into their pension pot !!

The Observer wrote:

Too true Iggy...but and it's a rather large but; firstly Argyle have to safely navigate through two rounds of the FA Cup.

That has provem to be rather problematical of late.

Euromillions anyone?

True.   the last couple of seasons have been a feckin embarrassment.

Iggy wrote:

only the Man. Utd draw will save us.

Look, can you just give it up with this, you lot had a game away to the Arse which is a bigger pay day than Manure and it still wasn't enough to save you from Nikkk, Newell and the rest of the Nobbers.

Yeah, I know we didn't finish up any better off with Tisdale, Tagg and the rest of our To55ers but I just feel you are getting at me and it makes me sad.

You could show a little respect for the club you stole Jamie Mack from as you are about to get your whole financial situation turned around by the sell on, shame that the cash will all go directly to your football creditors.

The Arse draw went to pay the likes of Walton and co. about twenty grand a week to get us relegated out of two leagues, there's more than one way to skin a cat (or a club for that matter).

Lord Tisdale wrote:

Iggy wrote:

only the Man. Utd draw will save us.

Look, can you just give it up with this, you lot had a game away to the Arse which is a bigger pay day than Manure and it still wasn't enough to save you from Nikkk, Newell and the rest of the Nobbers.

Yeah, I know we didn't finish up any better off with Tisdale, Tagg and the rest of our To55ers but I just feel you are getting at me and it makes me sad.

You could show a little respect for the club you stole Jamie Mack from as you are about to get your whole financial situation turned around by the sell on, shame that the cash will all go directly to your football creditors.

The only thing the Mackie sell on clause will go towards is paying off Newell's food expenses bill and the reinforced seat they'll need for his lard arse in the new director's box.

Grovehill wrote:

Coxside_Green wrote:

Grovehill wrote:

You (like so many others) really are missing the point. When the final payment of the FC debt falls due, it ALL has to be PAID, IN FULL, no ifs, no buts, no rescheduling, no "just paying the interest"

IT GETS PAID OFF IN FULL-ALL £3MILLION+ -AS PER THE AGREEMENT THAT TOOK THE CLUB OUT OF ADMINISTRATION OR THE GOLDEN SHARE GETS TAKEN AWAY AND PLYMOUTH ARGYLE FC IS NO MORE

Has this scenario already been set in stone?

Whilst technically speaking the FL would be well within their rights to take this stance, it wouldn't be in the best interests of all concerned.  It certainly wont benefit the players who will still be owed money.  I would've thought the more likely outcome would be to renegotiate repayment and severely punish the club (huge points deduction, sanctions and whatnot).

Either way, the supporters will get what they deserve for backing this crap if the money isn't found.

What if Brent /the club was to buy back the ground for £1.6m and borrow against it  

There's an awful lot of financial naivity about.

If the FC debt doesn't get settled on the due date, it'll be the ex-players and the clubs that are owed money that'll be pushing for stern action to be taken. Because they will know (as will the FL) that if one club is allowed to postpone the FC debt repayment for 5 years and then just ignore it, every other Club that has a cash flow problem will be clamouring to go down the same route. The whole concept of the FC debt having to be paid off before a Club comes out of Administration was designed to make clubs act in a more financially prudent manner- if bending the rules in Argyle's case is seen to backfire, there will be a lot of shit hitting the fan.

As for Nikki's statement that it's nothing to worry about because it's not due for years- well why doesn't he put his money where his mouth is and buy the club?  

Because he knows full well, that barring a miracle (or home & away cup ties against Man Utd.) there isn't a cat in hell's chance that the club will pay even a percentage of this from it's own resources. If the football club is losing money now, there's no way it can pay off debts without increasing it's indebtedness.

As for JB buying the ground back and raising a loan with the ground as security (apart from being how the club got in this mess in the first place) it would make far  more sense for him just to pay off the FC debt if he wanted to.

He doesn't want to though- because there's nothing in it for him, is there.

As far as I'm aware the FC debt isn't being ignored.  14% was payable as part of the coming out of administration agreement and 7% per annum is ongoing.  By the time we get to the lump sum payment date almost 50% should be already paid off.  Should the club default on this lump sum payment, as pissed off as I might be as an ex-player or one of the currently unemployed ex-managers to not get paid in full, I don't think I'd be clamouring for the club to be ejected from the FL as I'd still be wanting my money.  The clubs themselves may have a different view but then again quite a number of clubs have done well out of Argyle's mismanagement in recent years, who knows how some of the shadiest characters in football will think.

As for the local money lender not putting his money where his mouth is right now, do you honestly believe Brent would sell right now?  Many on here have touted him as the next owner after Brent has got what he wanted, it's difficult not to agree with that view and probably wont cost him much personally should the time come.

I've no idea how much the new retails units (apparently to be sold off), a school, dentist and conference facilities will affect the value of the ground but I should think it'd be worth far more than £1.6m.  From a fans perspective buying the ground and borrowing against it is a shit plan but since when did the suits give a flying one about the fans?  I don't think the inserted 5 year buy-back option should be ignored.

Whatever happens, the clubs woes will continue and debts will continue to be passed on to the fans.  I just think there is a plan to get past the FC debt assuming Brents development plans get the go-ahead.  If they don't get the go-ahead then we can be put out of our misery sooner.

We were assuming the football debt was £3m, if what you are saying is true then it is probably about £1.7m, but we are still £3m in debt according to the financial report plus another £2m that didn't need to be published. Wherever the money is going is a side issue the main issue is that we are £5m in debt.

Nobody knows how much the initial football debt was? The repayment plan was well documented when we came out of admin though and I assume it is being adhered to. I don't know how much has been raised via GT's, bucket rattling etc but this should all be going toward the final lump sum payment.

I agree the overall debt is still a concern and wont be going anywhere soon, I just think Grovie is over-reacting somewhat with regard to the FC debt. I think there is more to be played out post-development and the mug punters will be paying for it.

Wasn't the amount raised by the GT's only a loan to accelerate the payments though? I thought that it was making sure the non-playing staff got their rightfully due wages more quickly but that Mr Brent would be reimbursing the GT's at a later date.

Or am I on mushrooms?

Greenjock wrote:

Wasn't the amount raised by the GT's only a loan to accelerate the payments though? I thought that it was making sure the non-playing staff got their rightfully due wages more quickly but that Mr Brent would be reimbursing the GT's at a later date.

Or am I on mushrooms?

Yes, but there wont be any urgency to repay it, will there?.

Coxside_Green wrote:

Greenjock wrote:

Wasn't the amount raised by the GT's only a loan to accelerate the payments though? I thought that it was making sure the non-playing staff got their rightfully due wages more quickly but that Mr Brent would be reimbursing the GT's at a later date.

Or am I on mushrooms?

Yes, but there wont be any urgency to repay it, will there?.

If he's leaving for pastures new they might want it back but I don't think there's anything set in stone over the terms. It's just another sum to add onto the total debt that's all I was thinking.

When we had the ATD Q&A with JB, the football debt was £2m. I think this was around 18 months ago so if the debt repayment carries on at the same rate we'd have £1m to pay when it's due. I would assume the extra debt is loans we owe to JB? I notice in the last PASB summary that the board said that the club would still not be able to sustain itself in the coming season (so more loans will be needed) so I guess that part of the debt will increase?