Reassessing The Pulis/Holloway Years

Were they really that good?

What is undeniable is that Holloway took Argyle to our highest league position in years and close to our highest league position ever. In November 2007 we played our last game with Holloway in charge and we beat Norwich at Home Park 3-0 but only 11,222 turned up to see us climb to 5th place in the CCC. Why?

The stats tell us that Ollie's team must have been one of the best Argyle XIs ever to wear the green and the popular wisdom is that they swaggeringly stroked the ball around and played triangles better than the LSO's percussionist.

Which is strange because as I remember it we didn't often play that convincingly at home. I remember there being lots of grumbling about why we kept on lumping it up to two little blokes (SEB and Hayles usually) who rarely won the ball against the opposition's massive centre backs. That's what I remember most strongly but that isn't to say that we didn't enjoy some stunning away results and, arguably, it was away from Home Park where Ollie's team thrived and it was points won away from Home Park that moved Argyle as far up the league as they did.

So why were home attendances so poor? I think it was a hangover from the Pulis Year. Pulis did many great things for the club and for the team but what he never once did was set out to entertain us as fans. Which possibly doesn't matter much to the committed supporter but to the curious part-timer (a.k.a. The Plastic) it is a problem. Who apart from the hopelessly biased wants to watch a team that only advances up the field by crudely wellying it up the middle or by virtue of a succession of Capaldi long throws up the touchline? It was a style of football that was very, very tough to watch and impossible to enjoy. And it was a style never, in home games anyway, entirely dispensed with by Holloway.

So despite our success at the time the team never ignited the enthusiasm of those part-timers and with it only being November it was far too early for many of us to get seriously excited about the chances of eventual promotion.

Add to that the beginning of The Great Sale (Capaldi, Buszaky, Gosling and SEB amongst others had either all left or were about to leave) and the discontent deliberately created and fuelled by Peter Jones and his Consortium at the time (sounds familiar doesn't it!) and all the ingredients were in place to discourage the part-timer from attending.

It's amazing really. What could have been the spell in the club's history that smashed Argyle through our glass ceiling actually turned out to be the period that actually sowed the seeds of abject failure. By allowing the selling of good players and then replacing them with poor ones, by not backing Sturrock when he went for his first choices and by paying players like McLean, Clark and Paterson far more than they were worth for far longer than they deserved the chain of events was established that almost saw the club die.

But for all of that it is surprising that only 11,222 turned up on that day to watch us play Norwich off the park on that November afternoon. It's as unfathomable as our average attendance of over 7000 for last season.

It's a funny old game, Saint.

That game against Norwich is often brought up, but I don't remember thinking that much of Holloway's squad UNTIL that game. The previous results running up to that game were a draw at Colchester, a loss at Preston and a loss at home to an awful Sheffield Wednesday. Given the match was early November and we'd only have played a dozen of matches that season, why would there be any particular wave of optimism amongst the curious fairweathers? Stoke had 12k at home to us that September and they finished second. It's just one of those things...

As it was, we finished 10th, but it was a 10th place which always felt closer to 16th than 6th in terms of how exciting it actually was. Had we been in or around the playoffs at even Christmas time then I'm sure we'd have seen a spike in attendances but we just weren't.

There were too many teams in that division at that time that made us look ordinary, especially when you looked at the bench, we didn't have the depth IMO.

Mock Cuncher wrote:

That game against Norwich is often brought up, but I don't remember thinking that much of Holloway's squad UNTIL that game. The previous results running up to that game were a draw at Colchester, a loss at Preston and a loss at home to an awful Sheffield Wednesday. Given the match was early November and we'd only have played a dozen of matches that season, why would there be any particular wave of optimism amongst the curious fairweathers? Stoke had 12k at home to us that September and they finished second. It's just one of those things...

As it was, we finished 10th, but it was a 10th place which always felt closer to 16th than 6th in terms of how exciting it actually was. Had we been in or around the playoffs at even Christmas time then I'm sure we'd have seen a spike in attendances but we just weren't.

To be fair on that note, we were 6th in the league after Boxing Day. We were 5th as late as February 23rd in fact.

But on the whole, in terms of how likely it seemed that exciting stuff would happen, I see exactly what you mean.

Iggy wrote:

There were too many teams in that division at that time that made us look ordinary, especially when you looked at the bench, we didn't have the depth IMO.

Absolutely this. WBA (I think it was?) pissed us aside when Luggy returned and watched from the stand, without really getting into top gear. Might have been our best ever finish for years but we were still miles away from getting anywhere near the playoffs. Yer average Janner fan doesn't seem to care what league we're in, all the see is bleddy Argo losing again.

I remember thinking tickets were too expensive. Might have had an effect.

Ollie's Palace winning 1-0 in Play off extra time- 2 mins to go. Looks like he (and Bolasie) will be in the Prem next season.

Palace promoted through Kevin Phillips penalty.

Well done Ollie - back in the big time. What could have been at Argyle five years ago eh? But staplewallet, backed by the same superfans now telling us to trust in brent, had other ideas.

I remember watching a 1-0 home win at Brighton under Pulis, the goal was a gift nalis i think and Brighton were terrible at the time and it was boring beyond belief. I'd give my right arm to bore Brighton into submission now....
I also remember being baffled with holloway playing SEB and Hayles upfront week in week out and wondering why we played long ball and why he kept signing strikers (Easter and Fallon) and no playing them.

All in all I think the boat was missed with Appointing Williamson and then not improving the squad properly. The football was terrible and the Plymouth public shrugged and went back to whatever is they on Saturday afternoons

Han Solos Other Ship wrote:

Iggy wrote:

There were too many teams in that division at that time that made us look ordinary, especially when you looked at the bench, we didn't have the depth IMO.

Absolutely this. WBA (I think it was?) pissed us aside when Luggy returned and watched from the stand, without really getting into top gear. Might have been our best ever finish for years but we were still miles away from getting anywhere near the playoffs. Yer average Janner fan doesn't seem to care what league we're in, all the see is bleddy Argo losing again.

Never agreed with the validity of the comparison with WBA.Sure,they pissed all over Argyle down here [Sturrock's first match in his second spell,i believe] but Argyle had decent results that season against the other two promotees and Bristol City,who got to the play offs.Hull and Stoke actually survived in the premier league whereas WBA came straight back down,don't think a one-off match told the whole story.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

Were they really that good?

What is undeniable is that Holloway took Argyle to our highest league position in years and close to our highest league position ever. In November 2007 we played our last game with Holloway in charge and we beat Norwich at Home Park 3-0 but only 11,222 turned up to see us climb to 5th place in the CCC. Why?

The stats tell us that Ollie's team must have been one of the best Argyle XIs ever to wear the green and the popular wisdom is that they swaggeringly stroked the ball around and played triangles better than the LSO's percussionist.

Which is strange because as I remember it we didn't often play that convincingly at home. I remember there being lots of grumbling about why we kept on lumping it up to two little blokes (SEB and Hayles usually) who rarely won the ball against the opposition's massive centre backs. That's what I remember most strongly but that isn't to say that we didn't enjoy some stunning away results and, arguably, it was away from Home Park where Ollie's team thrived and it was points won away from Home Park that moved Argyle as far up the league as they did.

So why were home attendances so poor? I think it was a hangover from the Pulis Year. Pulis did many great things for the club and for the team but what he never once did was set out to entertain us as fans. Which possibly doesn't matter much to the committed supporter but to the curious part-timer (a.k.a. The Plastic) it is a problem. Who apart from the hopelessly biased wants to watch a team that only advances up the field by crudely wellying it up the middle or by virtue of a succession of Capaldi long throws up the touchline? It was a style of football that was very, very tough to watch and impossible to enjoy. And it was a style never, in home games anyway, entirely dispensed with by Holloway.

So despite our success at the time the team never ignited the enthusiasm of those part-timers and with it only being November it was far too early for many of us to get seriously excited about the chances of eventual promotion.

Add to that the beginning of The Great Sale (Capaldi, Buszaky, Gosling and SEB amongst others had either all left or were about to leave) and the discontent deliberately created and fuelled by Peter Jones and his Consortium at the time (sounds familiar doesn't it!) and all the ingredients were in place to discourage the part-timer from attending.

It's amazing really. What could have been the spell in the club's history that smashed Argyle through our glass ceiling actually turned out to be the period that actually sowed the seeds of abject failure. By allowing the selling of good players and then replacing them with poor ones, by not backing Sturrock when he went for his first choices and by paying players like McLean, Clark and Paterson far more than they were worth for far longer than they deserved the chain of events was established that almost saw the club die.

But for all of that it is surprising that only 11,222 turned up on that day to watch us play Norwich off the park on that November afternoon. It's as unfathomable as our average attendance of over 7000 for last season.

It's a funny old game, Saint.

I think we've been through this one or twice before The decline had set in well before Pulis took over-10800 for the last home game before his appointment,admittedly against Crewe on a Tuesday evening, but 6000 down on the previous season and in fact gates were consistently around the 13000-15000 mark by the end of the season,which would suggest that the fans were more attracted to the decent results obtained rather than by the style of football played.You only have to look at Stoke,who were averaging around about the same as Argyle at the time,for confirmation that good results tend to attract good crowds rather than any wish to see the beautiful game,welcome bonus that may be.And anyway Holloway had a reputation as a manager who played attacking and attractive football-surely this would have proved to be a crowd puller if indeed it was such an important factor? No,the real reason for the alleged poor crowds was the failure to seize the initiative and momenum in that first season back in the CCC.It wasn't a phenomenon exclusive to Argyle;

Cardiff promoted in 2004;

2003/4 average gate 15569-league position 13th
2004/5 average gate 12796-league position 16th
2005/6 average gate 11720-league position 11th

Almost identical results to Argyle,worse attendances,so maybe the HP gates weren't as execrable as is generally held to be the case.I think we tend to look at matters in isolation rather than in the bigger picture.It was significant that you say the Argyle "climbed" to 5th place after the Norwich game-were results before that all that good,did they convince the public that Argyle were on the threshold of success? The feeling i got after that game was that something really good was about to take off,exactly the same as the feeling as Sheffield Wednesday in 2003,Swindon in 1974,Gillingham in 1985 etc but we all know what happened next in 2007.The really important lesson to be learnt is that if and when second tier status is attained again,Argyle MUST be geared up financially for it in order to capitalise on the momentum gained-if not then exactly the same arguments and debates will be taking place in 25 years time.

I reckon you should 'save' this dear boy.

You'll need it again............. forshore

Once again Holloway gets a "smaller" club into the Premier League. I know he took Palace over in a great position but he kept them in the play-off spots ahead of some much "bigger" teams.

I'm not sure what their financial situation is like these days, so I don't know how they will fare in the PL, but their 26,000 stadium that hasn't been sold out all season will definitely be sold out next season.

Greenjock wrote:

Once again Holloway gets a "smaller" club into the Premier League. I know he took Palace over in a great position but he kept them in the play-off spots ahead of some much "bigger" teams.

I'm not sure what their financial situation is like these days, so I don't know how they will fare in the PL, but their 26,000 stadium that hasn't been sold out all season will definitely be sold out next season.

There's talk of a new stadium. It clearly won't happen overnight but the one sure thing is that it will be bigger.

Only Argyle go smaller and at the same time make future expansion very difficult, if not impossible.