The Soldier's Murder in Woolwich/Racism debate

You are right sensible it is all opinion. I started last week with an opinion and that has moved the more I read and listen.

I am not saying people have to march to defend themselves, they have done nothing to have to defend themselves from. I am just saying that it would be good for the Muslim community, the people not the politicians to show the strength of their feeling.

Agree Angry.

VillageGreen wrote:

Radio5live sent out a direct challenge to all Muslims the other night,when it asked for them to hold a rally/march in Central London to denounce the Islamic extremists within the UK [I would like to see that too,perhaps they could get all faiths to take part also so that they can ram home the message].

They argued that such a gesture would go along way to healing a steadily growing rift between the population over the murder of Lee Rigby.

The shocking events of that murder,along with the spraying painting vandalism on a war memorial [also in London],just goes to show what the majority of these Islamic extremists think about this Country.

The spray painting vandalism on the war memorial has disgusted a great many to the core [although some belief that Right-Wing thugs may have done this,rather than Islamic extremists. I find that rather crass in outlook].

It is of paramount importance that decent Muslims in the UK march in support of British values/what it means and what it stands for,while turning the vile on to those that seek extremist radicalisation as a way out or forward.

The Woman from Cornwall deserves all the praise she gets..

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If this Country has to go down a totalitarian route to wipe out and destroy the Islamic extremist threat on these shores,then so be it. I would not be too chuffed if it were to happen,but the needs of security come first.

Should all catholics go on a march renouncing paedophile priests? All Christians march to renounce every white CofE murder or rape that's committed?

The guy who has been released from hospital into police custody tonight has been laid into by his own family tonight, is that good enough?

Just because an idiot like Cobi Budge says all Muslims are plotting to take over the world and feck all our kids doesn't mean it's true.

No-one is saying it's true Jock - and the last time I looked there weren't mass demonstrations on the streets against the Catholics. There is against the Muslims. It is wrong. The EDL are wrong. The Government is doing and will do nothing other than start the whole process again by arming the rebels in Syria. It will need a 'propaganda' march for want of a better word for the good natured, ordinary Muslims to show the world that they will no longer put up with the radicals among them.

As football fans we were not all hooligans in the 70s and 80s. We are not all racist now but we have had to run a serious, well organised campaign to kick the racists out of our game and on the whole it has been successful. I just feel that standing up to the radicals is far easier for the Muslims to do than it is for non Muslims to do. When non Muslims do it then it becomes an East v West or Asian v White thing (not that it is racial but easily becomes racial t the morons who let it). I feel it would help, that's all.

WW111,Not far away now Russia and Israel certainly raising the stakes now.Uk and France will arm the rebels,keep the feck out of it.

WW3 is already here and it has been for a long time. I don't recall any period where there wasn't fighting between at least 2 sides somewhere in the World. The difference is that it has been isolated to a certain region or Country at a time rather than dragging everyone in at the same time. There will always be conflict because it is in the nature of man to have them. Personal interest and National interest will keep the fires burning for a very long time to come.

Sorry downthetrack but no it won't be the big one as you put it. Armagedon is not in the interests of anyone personally or nationally so it is unlikely to happen.

Tringreen wrote:

GOB wrote:

Tringreen wrote:

Czarcasm wrote:

90% of my work takes me away from Plymouth, so I'm more than just a little aware of what goes on outside of our Devon bubble.

Gassers post quoting the German fella is bang on in so many respects, and the overwhelming issue of radicalisation is borne of the FACT that a great many Muslim communities steadfastly refuse to integrate - in any way shape or form to a British way of life.

Quite simply, it is those communities that refuse to integrate, that are sowing the seeds of radicalisation against anything other than the Islamic faith.

Tis true.

Imagine christians trying to march like this in Tehran or Islamabad [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Here's the "full" video of Tring's conveniently edited clip that appears to have been clipped for the sole purpose of creating and increasing the ill feeling being directed at Muslims.

The "full" video was made by the BBC and provides views from all sides of the fence and also an understanding that the vast majority of Muslims are condemning of the views of a small minority shown in that clip posted by Tring that was in my opinion, conveniently edited for the sole purpose to exploit bigoted agendas. It also shows the level of awareness that so called leaders of the EDL have that appear to me to be nothing less than thick.

There are wankers on both sides, thankfully they are both minorities and promoted by bigots to satisfy their own thirst to create disharmony. Neither belong in society and neither deserve to have the freedoms of expression because they wish to remove that freedom from others!

"Imagine christians trying to march like this in Tehran or Islamabad" - Now if one of those in that clip said that but swapped the cities to London or New York, wouldn't it be described as "radicalisation", or is that just a Muslim thing?

I wasn't aware that the clip was part of a longer documentary and I don't understand what you are suggesting in your last sentence.

In case you have forgotten, there continues to be a huge Islamic terrorist threat on the streets of the UK and everywhere in the world. The muslim communities in the UK could do more to expose the radicals in their midst and the UK government could do more to lock them away.

I condemn any extremist groups and those like the EDL should be similarly exposed and controlled.

ps have just skipped through the whole video and it would appear to provide a realistic snapshot of the bigger picture and why there are likely to be ongoing inter community problems. Even taking away the terrorist threat, there remains a deep divide between large sections of the population.

I’ll tell you why Tring but this isn’t aimed solely at you or even this thread……the past few days have been an eye opener!

I have read some utter shyte on this wonderful Internet recently…….Every time a hint of crap is mentioned on here or anywhere else within the public eye that contains ridiculous statistics combined with idle and mischief making comments and a video that has purposely been edited to remove it from its intended context to probably “back up” a failed point in a very weak argument (aimed at the editor and BTW, the edited version is doing well on Facebook!))….every time someone tries to prove their point in this way it fails and falls flat on its face for most of us, but some youngsters are influenced in exactly the way that many on this thread are siting as evil, “Radicalisation”. ….because that’s exactly what it is! – By posting that video Tring and without doing your homework, you added to the “radicalisation” that you claim to despise, even if it was not intended. I have seen a hundred similar things recently that like the video have been purposely designed to change a context.

Because of this “radicalisation” on such a massive scale that I have never witnessed in this country in my lifetime and that can be found on just about any social media site…today thousands of old people are afraid to go out, young families are afraid to take their children to the park and in some areas undoubtedly, there will be many that will be so afraid that they will not be able to sleep…for some it may be considerably sadder and hurtful yet the vast majority of these people will be completely against the extremist that carry out these disgusting crimes and believe it or not, they will also share a great many western values! - So Why? – Because some young and easily “radicalised” youngster is terrorising them because of the colour of their skin, their religion or because they dress funny…..and the youngster that is terrifying these people believes that what he is doing is right because he read how all Muslims hated Westerners on an EDL poster, how everyone that worshipped the Islam faith is a supporter of the guy that slaughtered that poor soldier and you never know, he may even have watched a video on a football forum and it showed a couple hundred Muslims shouting anti Brit stuff so that means that all Muslims must hate the Brits! Maybe he could even have been radicalised by a respected elder that he knows on the Internet, all within just a few simple sentences of twisted and contorted bigoted bullshit.

I have no problem with people using facts to back up an argument but on such a delicate argument I would hope that everyone has at least researched the facts before they decide to post what could potentially lead to a nightmare scenario for all of us!

THINK BEFORE YOU POST, BASE YOUR OPINION ON LOGIC AND FACT, NOT EMOTION OR BIGOTRY!

I AM NOT ASKING FOR A DENIAL OF THE PROBLEMS THAT WE ARE EXPERIENCING, BUT NEITHER SHOULD THESE HORRIBLE EXPERIENCES BE USED FOR BIGOTED INTENTION!




Cobi, research your facts and figures and when you have finished bring them to me and I will pick it apart, dissect it, question it and argue it. After that I will take what I want from it and I will provide you with facts based on your facts that will provide an opposite argument to the one that you are proposing. Exactly like the BNP and the EDL do!




I know we like to think of this place as our local pub but it isn’t, the whole world can look in and that means that when debating topics such as this that we have a responsibility to promote values that are good for our society, does anyone seriously believe that by distorting fact, changing context, generalising and promoting disharmony will make this society a better society, really?


“The internal expurgation of the Jewish spirit is not possible in any platonic way. For the Jewish spirit is the product of the Jewish person. Unless we expel the Jewish people. Unless we expel the Jewish people soon, they will have judaized our people within a very short time.”

Adolf Hitler at Nuremberg, January 13, 1923



Has anyone been watching “Hitler; The Rise of Evil”?

You're out of your mind, Gob.

Get a feckin grip for fucks sake.

Coming from someone with such a wide experience of rudeness and antagonism combined with mild insanity, I will consider your contribution and promptly dismiss it, Rickler.

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

It's easy HJ. Stop the radicals preaching in their Mosques.
Publically demonstrate against Islamists.
There must be hundreds of thousands/millions of Muslims who feel Choudary is a threat to all of our way of life - it is time now for all of us to hear that voice. But as yet that voice is silent.

But that's the thing though Damon, their voice isn't silent.

Thousands of them did march in London this weekend. The Muslim Council of Britain and the Islamic Society of Britain have both condemned it. Every individual Muslim that I know or that I follow on social media has condemned it. I can provide you with sources for all those if you want. And aside from that, the implication that Muslims need to condemn it more than say, you or I is one that I really struggle with. I personally think that if you take these normal, peace-loving Muslims as decent people than it's surely obvious as anything that they're against radicalisation.

I live with a Muslim when I'm at university. He studies economics at Southampton. The idea that I'd have to specifically ask him if he's against this is absurd. Of course he's against it because he's a sane, moderate, peace-loving person. I think if Muslim groups want to specifically condemn it then good for them. However, I also think, and this isn't a very popular view but I'll say it anyway, that putting pressure on Muslim groups to openly condemn it more so than Christian groups or Hindu groups or agnostic groups only serves to appease the viewpoint that all Muslims are to be treated with suspicion. I don't think for a second that you or anyone else meant it that way Damon but I think it may be an unintended consequence.

hairy j wrote:

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

Disappointed that I have not had a reply from the Plymouth Islamic Education Trust. I emailed them last week asking for their views on how hard working British Muslims could and should be expressing their condemnation of the Islamist radicalisation of their youth.

I have spent some time over the past week reading much from both sides of the argument and do find myself shifting slightly. GOB's old strapline of good men doing nothing for evil to succeed does seem to bare truth in this debate and I am not sure that the vast majority of Anglicised Muslims are doing enough to halt the rise of the minority fanatics. The Choudarys of this world are given a platform in certain Mosques and are not shouted down.

Tommy/Steven/whatever, leader of the EDL has certainly tapped into a deep routed vein of enough's enough up and down the country. It is a dangerous moment and I have absolutely no confidence in this Government's ability to calm the situation. Storming Syria next - just more of the old Etonian 'we'll do what we want because we are the ruling class' - will do nothing to help the situation.

That's surprising Damon. As a Jewish man, are you socially bound to denounce the actions of Israel when they contravene the Geneva convention? I wouldn't even think to ask you to let alone expect you to. What exactly are they supposed to say?

I'm baffled as to why this thread has been renamed too - it links immigration with the murder that happened in London and it really shouldn't. If a murder happened in Cyprus involving a non-Cypriat, would we expect Tring to publicly denounce it and then create a thread that links non-Cypriats with 'murders in Cyprus'?

In Cyprus, the locals always blame someone else for anything bad that happens .............. usually the Brits, sometimes the Americans and often the Turks. More latterly the Germans

When my lad had his car accident in KSA , it was of course his fault. In the KSA it is always the foreigners fault and the actual reason given is that if the foreigner wasn't where he was, it wouldn't have happened ! They still behead women too, while the men pop over to Bahrain, drink lager and shag as many women as they can manage, often returning with HIV and blaming their women again

By the way GOB. Do you have some sort of seasonal disorder ? You seem to be making a habit of going wanky at this time of year.

Rickler wrote:

You're out of your mind, Gob.

Get a feckin grip for fucks sake.

He's made a very strong point. It's a shame you don't take the time to contribute anything other than a put down - you're not even that good at it either.

Well said GOB.

hairy j wrote:

Rickler wrote:

You're out of your mind, Gob.

Get a feckin grip for fucks sake.

He's made a very strong point. It's a shame you don't take the time to contribute anything other than a put down - you're not even that good at it either.

Well said GOB.

Hairy J - King of Irony

Czarcasm wrote:

hairy j wrote:

Rickler wrote:

You're out of your mind, Gob.

Get a feckin grip for fucks sake.

He's made a very strong point. It's a shame you don't take the time to contribute anything other than a put down - you're not even that good at it either.

Well said GOB.

Hairy J - King of Irony

Totally agree although he comes across more the Queen of Ironing

Tringreen wrote:

hairy j wrote:

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

Disappointed that I have not had a reply from the Plymouth Islamic Education Trust. I emailed them last week asking for their views on how hard working British Muslims could and should be expressing their condemnation of the Islamist radicalisation of their youth.

I have spent some time over the past week reading much from both sides of the argument and do find myself shifting slightly. GOB's old strapline of good men doing nothing for evil to succeed does seem to bare truth in this debate and I am not sure that the vast majority of Anglicised Muslims are doing enough to halt the rise of the minority fanatics. The Choudarys of this world are given a platform in certain Mosques and are not shouted down.

Tommy/Steven/whatever, leader of the EDL has certainly tapped into a deep routed vein of enough's enough up and down the country. It is a dangerous moment and I have absolutely no confidence in this Government's ability to calm the situation. Storming Syria next - just more of the old Etonian 'we'll do what we want because we are the ruling class' - will do nothing to help the situation.

That's surprising Damon. As a Jewish man, are you socially bound to denounce the actions of Israel when they contravene the Geneva convention? I wouldn't even think to ask you to let alone expect you to. What exactly are they supposed to say?

I'm baffled as to why this thread has been renamed too - it links immigration with the murder that happened in London and it really shouldn't. If a murder happened in Cyprus involving a non-Cypriat, would we expect Tring to publicly denounce it and then create a thread that links non-Cypriats with 'murders in Cyprus'?

In Cyprus, the locals always blame someone else for anything bad that happens .............. usually the Brits, sometimes the Americans and often the Turks. More latterly the Germans

When my lad had his car accident in KSA , it was of course his fault. In the KSA it is always the foreigners fault and the actual reason given is that if the foreigner wasn't where he was, it wouldn't have happened ! They still behead women too, while the men pop over to Bahrain, drink lager and shag as many women as they can manage, often returning with HIV and blaming their women again

By the way GOB. Do you have some sort of seasonal disorder ? You seem to be making a habit of going wanky at this time of year.

Only when dealing with bigoted attitudes Tring.

Britain first a right wing group.Say that they are going to arrest Anjem Choudry today.Good luck on that one.Probably has as many old bill round him as the Queen

You hardly post on here for ages DTT. And then this topic comes along and you're like a cat on heat.

knecht wrote:

You hardly post on here for ages DTT. And then this topic comes along and you're like a cat on heat.

Be gone again soon just having some time off.got 6 months work in front now ,busy busy busy

Sensiblegreeny wrote:

Sorry downthetrack but no it won't be the big one as you put it. Armagedon is not in the interests of anyone personally or nationally so it is unlikely to happen.

It only takes one person to push a button.

Never say never,the World is a more volatile place than it was in the past.

Since the Berlin Wall came down and Communism failed and died a death,the World has imploded with hate and fear and loathing,leaving it a more dangerous and unpredictable place.

It has always been said that WW3 will start in the Middle-East,that seems to ring true now,especially with regards to the Arab Spring and the threat that Iran will soon have a nuclear bomb.

Israel is being held back at the moment from launching strikes at Iran by concerned Western Officals,and who can blame them. Syria is a civil war that is fast becoming a global conflict,involving the major powers and the extremist radicals [we have had Turkey and Syria exchanging gunfire,we have had Lebanon/Hezbolla erupting in to civil unrest with its rival factions and we have had Israel and Syria exchanging gunfire. All in the past few weeks or less].

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Russia will put sophisticated arms in to the hands of President A,while the West [mainly the EU and the USA] dither,but when the West decides on arming those rebels further action may need to be taken.

I read yesterday that the West would have to put boots on the ground to make sure that the weapons they have given to the rebels are in fact being used by the rebels. If that were to happen,then Russia [with backing from China] would also need to put boots on the ground in Syria to protect their interests. That would be an escalation of the most serious nature.

If ever the World was facing a major crisis,then that time is now and present..

The police will no doubt be hoping for rain in the coming weeks, hot weather will see the ale flow & the hatred escalate. Rain will see everyone take their pc's instead.

MI5 will come in for some stick over this, both appear to be known to them.

Ali Choudray going to be arrested? bet he's not inside for very long.

I think we're all going to die.

Russia & China are owed a lot of money & wont want ANY nato involvement.

Greenjock wrote:

VillageGreen wrote:

Radio5live sent out a direct challenge to all Muslims the other night,when it asked for them to hold a rally/march in Central London to denounce the Islamic extremists within the UK [I would like to see that too,perhaps they could get all faiths to take part also so that they can ram home the message].

They argued that such a gesture would go along way to healing a steadily growing rift between the population over the murder of Lee Rigby.

The shocking events of that murder,along with the spraying painting vandalism on a war memorial [also in London],just goes to show what the majority of these Islamic extremists think about this Country.

The spray painting vandalism on the war memorial has disgusted a great many to the core [although some belief that Right-Wing thugs may have done this,rather than Islamic extremists. I find that rather crass in outlook].

It is of paramount importance that decent Muslims in the UK march in support of British values/what it means and what it stands for,while turning the vile on to those that seek extremist radicalisation as a way out or forward.

The Woman from Cornwall deserves all the praise she gets..

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

If this Country has to go down a totalitarian route to wipe out and destroy the Islamic extremist threat on these shores,then so be it. I would not be too chuffed if it were to happen,but the needs of security come first.

Should all catholics go on a march renouncing paedophile priests? All Christians march to renounce every white CofE murder or rape that's committed?

The guy who has been released from hospital into police custody tonight has been laid into by his own family tonight, is that good enough?

Just because an idiot like Cobi Budge says all Muslims are plotting to take over the world and feck all our kids doesn't mean it's true.

If my memory and history serves me correct,then i belief that Christians [mostly Catholic and Protestant] did march in the UK and Northern Ireland during the troubles to voice their anger at the IRA terrorists that blighted both shores.

It took much time and patience,but the message they preached and voiced has gone a long way to seeing a more peaceful Northern Ireland. There is still much to do other there,but they are getting it right slowly.

For decent Muslims to do the same thing here regarding radical extremists within their communities and locality,then it would show a symbolic gesture that would be appreciated by many in the UK.