The Soldier's Murder in Woolwich/Racism debate

Gert Loinz wrote:

Angry wrote:

Gert Loinz wrote:

Angry wrote:

Sufferedsince68 wrote:

You've only been a mod for five minutes and your censoring posts angry, is it because you don't like cobi because thats what it looks like, not a good start bey.

sorry ss68 but no

i moved it to the mod room for discussion its not been deleted nor has a decision made yet on whether it gets moved back.

Surely it's better to have the discussion then take any appropriate action if necessary. If there is any doubt then it is highly likely that a post does not breach forum rules. I'd genuinely like to know, for future reference, what forum rules and regulations you suspected the post might have contravened.

I was the only mod on at the time and when i read it first hand there were a number of things included that i felt needed to be looked at, i moved it so the other mods in the morning could see it and check it over. If its OK it will be put back! if not then im sure the reasons why will be told.

But surely that's the whole point of a forum - to look at and read and understand others' points of view and to agree or challenge - to learn and educate. That's for members to decide not moderators - it is our forum - even more than Argyle is our club. You just can't unilaterally censor simply because you disagree with a poster's politics or beliefs - unless the post, politics or belief is inciting criminal violence.

Angry - you're a decent chap I have no doubt but you simply made an error of judgment here. Just admit it and move on.

I haven't censored anything if i have censored opinions on this matter i would have locked the thread and moved it but i didnt i simply moved a post to be discussed as its content was borderline. The topic is still open for discussion and people can continue to be posted on it and as i keep saying the post can be put back after its been checked by all mods if its given the all clear.

Apart from common sense is there a written code of conduct for ATD? Are there written rules,regs and guidlines for members? Just a link please.

Gert Loinz wrote:

Apart from common sense is there a written code of conduct for ATD? Are there written rules,regs and guidlines for members? Just a link please.

It's largely common sense and to stay within the law. Didn't see Cobi's post but I doubt very much that it was against any laws , internet or otherwise. You can read extremist material anywhere and until that situation changes, I don't personally think we should be too precious.
Once we go down the route of removing posts because they cause offence to some, where on earth do you stop ?
We had a similar situation about this time last year over supposed fascist comments and a member was suspended for a week.I didn't agree with that then and the mod responsible for initiating the reprimand has since made jokes about the sinking of the Belgrano on the farm.
If you don't engage with extreme viewpoints, how can you hope to change them ?

Cobi justifying his point of view.

LINK

I would leave it stay then everyone can laugh at what a tw@t Cobi is. In months and years to come it'll be funny as he lurches from one extreme to another, changing his mind more often than he changes his spunk stained bedsheets.

Gert Loinz wrote:

Apart from common sense is there a written code of conduct for ATD? Are there written rules,regs and guidlines for members? Just a link please.

This is the relevant part of the constitution: "the ATD ethos of free speech within the law and common decency". As with all such issues this is vague and open to interpretation. Nobody wants ATD to resort to frequent censorship but, equally, nobody wants those boundaries to be so far out as to be meaningless.

It is still being discussed in the mod room. When a decision has been made, a statement will be made.

Be careful what you wish for. Ban the MOOOOODS

In all honesty, Cobi's post was semi-nazi, it was diet-nazi, it was half-fat-nazi. If you're going to be a racist far-right f u c k-job, at least be sincere and direct as opposed to changing your mind half way through. Skindheads would likely kicik the shite out of you for not having the balls to speak your mind.

Such a tragic killing and on the streets of London too,where you would have thought a member of the armed services would be safe.

It has been reported today that thousands could be radicalised in this Country and that is a shocking reality check of how a multicultural society has failed [yes i said failed] in the UK.

Yes,there are many-many in the Muslim faith who are law abiding and decent,but are they doing enough to stop their youth and whoever from being radicalised beyond repair.

There are many areas/places and parts of the larger Cities up the line where it is not safe to go through or go in to you if you happen to be white person and if this is the multicultural society that the Left and Liberal elite raved about,then something has gone terribly wrong somewhere down the line [this needs to addressed rather quickly i feel]. As these areas and places are usually hotbeds of extremism if the truth be known.

The Government have an awful [nay,difficult] job on their hands to combat radical behaviour and those that teach it.

Just what is wrong with these people,when they wish to give up all they know about the UK,its laws/its democratic roles/fairness that goes with it and its way of life we all so dearly lead,so that they can wage a war here or elsewhere [The main suspect has been described as intelligent and loved football and rounders and he was good in school,being in the top group for English and Maths..]

How much longer can the British public tolerate these radicals,who spout their vile hatred of the Country they were born in [most of them anyway] and how much longer will it be before tolerance turns to violence,and i do not mean the odd riot in the streets involving the UAF and the EDL,i mean something far-far worse.

We just have to hope that those tolerance levels remain as they are,because an awful lot of people are ever so angry about this tragic attack at the moment.....

We have not had or seen the behaviour as seen in Bristol last night in Devon as yet ? and let us hope it stays like that too..

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And Newcastle yesterday...

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This issue is in it's nature contentious.

From my point of view, I always want people to have their say.

I think there have been some ignorant posts in this thread. I can ignore them easily. Some people just have their opinions and they are wrong. That's more or less fine.

What I can't ignore however is a supposedly factual deconstruction of a religion, tenuously linking Islam to Nazism. Nazis were evil, all of them. Not every German was evil, but every Nazi was. Cobi's post wasn't just your usual ignorant bile 'Muslims r bad' type thing, it was inciteful and so far deluded from reality that it actually struck me as just being 'over the line'. ATD is liked because, and this is a bit of a cliche now, we have a pub type atmosphere with a relaxed touch. We're all a bit strange in our ways and generally tolerate each other. I'm not going to suggest that people here don't have the capability of ignoring Cobi or forming their own opinions on anything - far from it. However as one of the 'landlords' of this 'pub', I wouldn't allow the BNP to cover my walls with their nonsense propaganda. That's about where I am on it.

knecht wrote:

Gert Loinz wrote:

Apart from common sense is there a written code of conduct for ATD? Are there written rules,regs and guidlines for members? Just a link please.

This is the relevant part of the constitution: "the ATD ethos of free speech within the law and common decency". As with all such issues this is vague and open to interpretation. Nobody wants ATD to resort to frequent censorship but, equally, nobody wants those boundaries to be so far out as to be meaningless.

It is still being discussed in the mod room. When a decision has been made, a statement will be made.

It was purposely vague Knech, as within society mods should reflect the views of society, no rule can be created for that unless you seriously over regulate. But a broad thinking, diverse and non bigoted selection of moderators will have the noggin to know what "common decency" is.

At the time of creating the "common decency" bit it was believed that the users would have plenty enough of intelligence and common sense to elect the right people, as has been has been borne out by the election process and the success of the site despite skulduggery to prevent it.

Mock Cuncher wrote:

This issue is in it's nature contentious.

From my point of view, I always want people to have their say.

I think there have been some ignorant posts in this thread. I can ignore them easily. Some people just have their opinions and they are wrong. That's more or less fine.

What I can't ignore however is a supposedly factual deconstruction of a religion, tenuously linking Islam to Nazism. Nazis were evil, all of them. Not every German was evil, but every Nazi was. Cobi's post wasn't just your usual ignorant bile 'Muslims r bad' type thing, it was inciteful and so far deluded from reality that it actually struck me as just being 'over the line'. ATD is liked because, and this is a bit of a cliche now, we have a pub type atmosphere with a relaxed touch. We're all a bit strange in our ways and generally tolerate each other. I'm not going to suggest that people here don't have the capability of ignoring Cobi or forming their own opinions on anything - far from it. However as one of the 'landlords' of this 'pub', I wouldn't allow the BNP to cover my walls with their nonsense propaganda. That's about where I am on it.

And that's exactly why you are a moderator Mock, because I believe those words firmly represent the general view of society.

Having read it again.

After what has been said on this thread (site) - It is absolutely pathetic if that post is going to be removed.

Rickler wrote:

Having read it again.

After what has been said on this thread (site) - It is absolutely pathetic if that post is going to be removed.

Absolutely. Rip his argument and POV to shreds, laugh at his logic, ridicule the rhetoric but censoring his rather benign comments to the point of removing them altogether is frankly North Korean in mindset. Nothing I want to be a part of that is for sure.

Well, we all have our opinion on this most emotive of subjects.
I thought Angry made the right call.
I personally will never be part of a website that allows blatant racist views or advocacy to stand. I don't like Pitbull returning here at this time after an absence of months. He has history going right back to gleefully helping trash the old Argyle talk forum. Not my sort at all.

These sort of moderating decisions will be going on all over the country on internet forums', as we post. It's not been a good week.

worried of penzance wrote:

I personally will never be part of a website that allows blatant racist views or advocacy to stand. I don't like Pitbull returning here at this time after an absence of months. He has history going right back to gleefully helping trash the old Argyle talk forum. Not my sort at all.

These sort of moderating decisions will be going on all over the country on internet forums', as we post. It's not been a good week.

Neither will I. But there's a massive difference in persistent and blatent racist remarks in endless threads and the expression of personal views, however misguided, in a single thread started on a specific topic and at a time when emotions are bound to be high.

All of us have the intellectual capacity to challenge and ridicule racists. And they should be.

Removing Cobi's post was a mistake, albeit a genuine one - it was unnecessary and sets an unhealthy precedent.

What is the point of having mods if they don't do anything?

Are you serious?

After discussion in the mod room we've decided not to return Cobi's post.

We are aware this won't please everyone but putting it back wouldn't please everyone either. This sets no precedence .It is a difficult balance. We decided that propaganda like this should have no place on ATD.

A truly sad and pathetic decision in my humble opinion.

I for one don't need nannying on a small forum of this kind.

Good luck for the future.

I don't blame Gert.

Unbelievable..

Anyone like to tell us which way they voted?

I'm always late to the party.

Well done angry, you've only been a mod for a day and you've lost a good poster.

I read his post last night even though it arrived in print rather late when few were on here. I would say that it wasn't racist in the sense that Islam is not a race but a religion. However, it was a pretty one sided view of the faith to say the least and did portray it as something evil.

As a member on this site it is easy for me to say that it should be left on here for all to see. I have no doubt it would have produced, it has already, some very choice responses and Cobi would have been ripped up for it. He in turn would have continued digging and I've no doubt the responses would have gotten more and more agressive as time passed. If I put myself in a MOD position I can see the dilema. At what point would both parties, Cobi for and pretty much the rest against, have gone too far. I think it would have come down to that. On balance though maybe it would have done Cobi some good to have been hammered if it woke him up to real life and not the blinkered existance of a teenager. However there is little point voting for Mods and having them if they are criticised everytime they make a decision.

HBLC wrote:

I'm always late to the party.

Just fashionably...

Rickler wrote:

I don't blame Gert.

Unbelievable..

Anyone like to tell us which way they voted?

Sure.

I don't know whether or not I would have removed it had I come across the post first. I haven't removed much at all as a mod and the one time I attempted to be decisive it turned out that I had completely misread the intention behind that user's post and then had to grovel an apology via email. I'm generally against censorship as it relies on an assumption that by stopping the mouth the brain will follow, whereas really it is the other way around.

Having said that, now it has been removed I really don't see the need for it to be returned. It doesn't add anything good to any sort of debate or conversation. In fact, I'd say if we returned the post it would set an impossibly low benchmark of what we think is acceptable.

So I voted against returning it.




Free speech vs platform for hate speech; there's no winners in this imperfect world...Apols to fans of Gert - I hope he returns.

Guys i moved a post for discussion in the mod room. i am very sorry if that was worse than shooting bambi's mum and but it was a dodgy post that was move for discussion in the mod room that is all.

There is a fine line between free speech which is welcome and outright racist propaganda cobi's post teeter on both which is why i felt the mods needed to look into his post and decipher what it would be classed under.

I regret Gerts decision to quit the forum because the other mods voted to keep it off and i truly hope to see him back soon.