The Soldier's Murder in Woolwich/Racism debate

That's utter shite Red Star. Using tabloid rhetoric like 'scum' also detracts from your argument. It's much easier to dislike/hate people who aren't like you - it's more dificult to understand and contemplate the fact that these two people were living here, sounded like us and were dressed like us. These people weren't Arabic, weren't wearing thawbs, they didn't have foreign accents and didn't fly in from the Yemen.

This isn't part of a wider problem either - it was isolated, it was very unusual and it had nothing to do with normality or a growing trend.

It was a horrific 'crime' and that's all for me - it wasn't a declaration of war against the West.

Here's an OT quesstion. We've seen labelling on this thread of Muslims being one homogeneous group - how would people feel about someone stating "all English people are the same"?

They're just common, sickening murderers pretending to have a cause. Should be treated as such, left to rot in gaol.

Mock Cuncher wrote:

They're just common, sickening murderers pretending to have a cause. Should be treated as such, left to rot in gaol.

Looks to me like they have a cause, no matter how misguided they are . They have clearly been radicalised and those people are still out there spreading their hatred.

hairy j wrote:

That's utter shite Red Star. Using tabloid rhetoric like 'scum' also detracts from your argument. It's much easier to dislike/hate people who aren't like you - it's more dificult to understand and contemplate the fact that these two people were living here, sounded like us and were dressed like us. These people weren't Arabic, weren't wearing thawbs, they didn't have foreign accents and didn't fly in from the Yemen.

This isn't part of a wider problem either - it was isolated, it was very unusual and it had nothing to do with normality or a growing trend.

It was a horrific 'crime' and that's all for me - it wasn't a declaration of war against the West.

Here's an OT quesstion. We've seen labelling on this thread of Muslims being one homogeneous group - how would people feel about someone stating "all English people are the same"?

Tabloid rhetoric, dont be a tw@t all your life. You may not see the "people" who committed this atrocity as scum, but I do. You also seem intent on ridiculing Dane at every opportunity, that makes you an even bigger tw@t in my opinion.

I have no argument so nothing to detract, I have a view and am not interested converting you or anyone to my view or my religion. I don't view you as a liberal or do gooder, you do no good.

Awaits inane picture response from Hairy's library.

Good bates mate.

I also referenced Punchy's 'sandpit' comment. Completely derogatory term. Maybe you missed that as it was a bit subtle. Do you need me to post a picture next time?

My view of Dane's attitude and World view is also my view - don't be a tw@t mate. I happen to find that kind of attitude offensive and don't enjoy the fact I share a community alongside intolerant idiots - that includes all intolerance on either side of this tabloid created divide. I don't want my kids growing up surrounded by hate.

The Red Star wrote:

........
....... The scum that hacked the British soldier to death did not see themselves as English, therefore they are not English in either their own view or the wider public view.

I have cut & pasted this quote from elsewhere. I haven't checked its accuracy. If it is accurate that it is what the man says it is chilling in its calmness. It also reflects that he sees himself as British but that Britishness creates a conflict with his religious beliefs.
"The only reason we have killed this man today is because Muslims are dying daily by British soldiers. And this British soldier is one. It is an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. By Allah, we swear by the almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone. So what if we want to live by the Shari'a in Muslim lands? Why does that mean you must follow us and chase us and call us extremists and kill us? Rather you lot are extreme. You are the ones that when you drop a bomb you think it hits one person? Or rather your bomb wipes out a whole family? This is the reality. By Allah if I saw your mother today with a buggy I would help her up the stairs. This is my nature. But we are forced by the Qur'an, in Sura At-Tawba, through many ayah in the Qu'ran, we must fight them as they fight us. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. I apologise that women had to witness this today but in our lands women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Remove your governments, they don’t care about you. You think David Cameron is going to get caught in the street when we start busting our guns? You think politicians are going to die? No, it’s going to be the average guy, like you and your children. So get rid of them. Tell them to bring our troops back so can all live in peace. So leave our lands and we can all live in peace. That’s all I have to say. [in Arabic:] Allah’s peace and blessings be upon you."

There are things he has to say there that many people in the world have also said - specifically about the indiscriminate nature of drones but also about western interference in foreign countries. Indeed Obama has just delivered a speech in which he felt constrained to defend his escalation of use of drones. There are important points this man was delivering.

The difference is that this man's warped view of how to deal with the undoubted strength of his feelings has lead to another person being hacked to death. That is abhorrent. What would also be abhorrent is if others in this country - whether Xtian, Muslim, non-religious or so-called 'patriots' - took on board his warped mantra of an eye for an eye.

Amen knecht.

See the usual weak ass wankers are out in force again, always the same mantras, you are right wing fascists we are going to stop you having a point of view, uh duh!

Some of you tossers should spend some time living in Woolwich, vast tracts of London are no longer recognisable as being part of Britain and the kind of nut bag perps that killed this young man are anything but rare, gangs of young muslims roam areas of London trying to enforce their version of Sharia Law while the police do nothing cos they are shiite scared.

These two are not home grown, a majority of the imams preaching hate of the white man in the madrassas are foreign, they need to be removed from this country, they are the very essence of racism.

Red is right, these two need to executed in the most cruel and painful way imaginable, as does everybody that helped them or condoned their actions.

I would also add to that list with Blair, Bush, Obama and every other warmongering ass wipe that has put our lads in harms way to further their own ends, oh, and everyone that has ever made more than £50k a year working for Goldman Sachs, Citicorp or any of the other blood sucking leeches, our lads are needed in our country to defend us against insurgents like this pair of boko haram inspired nut bags, they should not be hanging around the "sandpit" getting blown to shiite by iranian munitions so that Blair can rake in millions from oil companies.

Ooooh, Tis. I love it when you talk dirty.

Maybe we can agree that THIS was extreme heroism.

How would execution deter people like these people? They don't give a toss if they are caught. In fact they probably hope to be caught. Would a suicide bomber think twice if there was a death penalty? No. In fact it would tie in to the Jihadi's belief that dying during a Jihad always leads directly to eternal paradise. The death penalty would actually encourage more attacks.

And the death penalty would create a steady supply of martyrs who were murdered for their beliefs (as it would be interpreted in some circles).

Lord Tisdale wrote:

See the usual weak ass wankers are out in force again, always the same mantras, you are right wing fascists we are going to stop you having a point of view, uh duh!

Some of you tossers should spend some time living in Woolwich, vast tracts of London are no longer recognisable as being part of Britain and the kind of nut bag perps that killed this young man are anything but rare, gangs of young muslims roam areas of London trying to enforce their version of Sharia Law while the police do nothing cos they are shiite scared.

These two are not home grown, a majority of the imams preaching hate of the white man in the madrassas are foreign, they need to be removed from this country, they are the very essence of racism.

Red is right, these two need to executed in the most cruel and painful way imaginable, as does everybody that helped them or condoned their actions.

I would also add to that list with Blair, Bush, Obama and every other warmongering ass wipe that has put our lads in harms way to further their own ends, oh, and everyone that has ever made more than £50k a year working for Goldman Sachs, Citicorp or any of the other blood sucking leeches, our lads are needed in our country to defend us against insurgents like this pair of boko haram inspired nut bags, they should not be hanging around the "sandpit" getting blown to shiite by iranian munitions so that Blair can rake in millions from oil companies.

absolute bollocks as per usual tisdale. i would debate with you but you generally cant teach retards anything with using pictures and your not worth googling tosser

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

How would execution deter people like these people? They don't give a toss if they are caught. In fact they probably hope to be caught. Would a suicide bomber think twice if there was a death penalty? No. In fact it would tie in to the Jihadi's belief that dying during a Jihad always leads directly to eternal paradise. The death penalty would actually encourage more attacks.

And the death penalty would create a steady supply of martyrs who were murdered for their beliefs (as it would be interpreted in some circles).

exactly SFD, they are religious fanatics they welcome death its what they want why give it too them.

London is, has been for centuries and always will be populated by migrants. That fact alone makes it, along with a small amount of other cities, one of the greatest cities in the World.


100-150 years ago, the Irish migrants were treated like vermin. Then it was the West Indian migrants after that. Enoch Powell ring any bells.

Would a hanging give you a sense of masculinity Tis? You seem to be well up for it. It naturally creates a free and just society where all people live harmoniously. You know China? They execute more people over there than any where else in the World. It's a lovely place to live*




*if you've got a few million in the bank

I believe a large percentage of British muslims are of Pakistani origin ? I taught in a few multicultural schools and a Pakistani educationalist once told me that in his opinion, many Pakistani kids fail at school because their families are from country areas and are largely not from the big cities and lack sophistication/ breeding, for want of better words. He pointed at a map of Pakistan and compared the region they came from to American hillbillies or rednecks. I don't know if he was totally correct but it always struck me that the children from these origins did underachieve and were very insular in outlook.Often their parents could not speak English, particularly the women.
The Hindus from India were a completely different kettle of fish and were more open and accepting of UK society and its values. I coached a lot of sport and I once asked a mixed ethnic origins group of boys who they supported in Test cricket. The Hindus usually said England because they were born here but they also liked India as it was where their families had originated. Sadly, not once did a lad from a Pakistani/Muslim family ever put England first.
It seems to be that large sections of the muslim community in the UK don't want to be British. In fact the more extreme elements march the streets campaigning angrily against the police, the army and Britain in general. It seems they would adopt Sharia law in the UK if they could.
I think what I'm trying to say is that the moderate Muslims need to really stand up to the extreme elements in their communities. To expose those who they know are being radicalised to the authorities instead of largely keeping quiet.
If they don't, there will eventually be a lot more blood on the streets as extreme elements on both sides take the law into their own hands.

The ethnic problems in Cyprus between Muslim and Christian, Greek and Turk were also fuelled by extremist elements.
In my opinion the UK government must take a much tougher stance against any radical groups and those who harbour them. The UK is justifiably proud of its tolerance and multicultural society but extremists must be dealt with firmly, or there will be big trouble ahead.

Parts of London are now absolutely no-go areas for white christians. I've been a victim of what has been described as a 'muslim patrol' - it was a terrifying experience.

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Personally, I really do believe there will 'rivers of blood' in the streets before too long. It's almost inevitable.

I'd like to add that I'm white but certainly not a Christian.

Look up ethnocentricity Tring. I think you've posted a perfect example of that. We're all guilty of it and therein lies the crux.

To the hanging debate. It won't happen. Look at how long it took to ban fox hunting in this country. Bringing back the death penalty just won't happen - that's why Guantanamo Bay exists.

"Crux" seems to be the word to use at the moment

its funny to me in a weird why when i see people moan about immigrants changing the face of where they live to something you would find in there homeland.. Let me ask you this who has been to benidorm? who has been too malaga? cyprus in some parts? australia even and even even south africa as they all have had their faces alter too included fish and chip shops, pubs and british culture by expats who a great deal dont bother to learn the language.

so it works both ways in some cases.

Angry of Mayfair wrote:

its funny to me in a weird why when i see people moan about immigrants changing the face of where they live to something you would find in there homeland.. Let me ask you this who has been to benidorm? who has been too malaga? cyprus in some parts? australia even and even even south africa as they all have had their faces alter too included fish and chip shops, pubs and british culture by expats who a great deal dont bother to learn the language.

so it works both ways in some cases.

There's a big difference between the enormous positive effects of multi-culturalism on any society and THIS

hairy j wrote:

I'd like to add that I'm white but certainly not a Christian.

Look up ethnocentricity Tring. I think you've posted a perfect example of that. We're all guilty of it and therein lies the crux.

To the hanging debate. It won't happen. Look at how long it took to ban fox hunting in this country. Bringing back the death penalty just won't happen - that's why Guantanamo Bay exists.

I thought I was painting some background information on many British muslims and generally being critical of extremists of any description ? But don't let that get in the way of anything.

The vast majority of people (all people) want to live happy, productive lives and watch their children grow in a safe and peaceful environment. Then there are fundamentalists to whom there is only one way, their way.

I cannot and would not dare to challenge any person's right to freedom of thought or speech or action except where those thoughts or speeches or actions lead to violence and the disruption of our way of life.

How people like Hamza, Qatada and Choudary have been allowed to get away with preaching their hatred and intolerance for so long is a disgrace. It is against thelaw to incite racial hatred - that is what they do and I don't understand why they have been allowed to continue their preaching. These are the people who, I believe, as soon as they start should be jailed or deported. No civil rights, no fancy lawyers. They ae here to disrupt our way of life.

I admit to not knowing much about Islam or the Quran. I do know some very Anglicised Muslims who have integrated and live 'normal' lives. Let me use the Jewish people as an example . Until recent history always 'homeless', the Jews have, in the main, looked to assimilate wherever they have been and again in the main have integrated well into society. Different places of worship, maybe different butchers but generally integrated. There is a small minority, however, who don't integrate. The Chassidic communities in the larger cities do keep themselves to themselves, like more orthodox Muslims they have their own laws and courts and if a business or family dispute arises between them they will use their own court system to settle the dispute. But the underlying principle of these Courts will fit in with the laws of the land.

Radicalisation of young Muslims to a fundamentalist belief is wrong and outside the laws of the UK. Successive Governments have pussy footed around attacking this problem head on. If Chowdary wants to live in state where Sharia Law exists then he can emigrate to Iran - Muslims can and should have the right to live, work and pray to Allah in peace on the streets of the UK. Fundamentalists have no place here.

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Gert Loinz wrote:

Angry of Mayfair wrote:

its funny to me in a weird why when i see people moan about immigrants changing the face of where they live to something you would find in there homeland.. Let me ask you this who has been to benidorm? who has been too malaga? cyprus in some parts? australia even and even even south africa as they all have had their faces alter too included fish and chip shops, pubs and british culture by expats who a great deal dont bother to learn the language.

so it works both ways in some cases.

There's a big difference between the enormous positive effects of multi-culturalism on any society and THIS

Religion doesnt kill people, its people with religion that kill people. Fanatics can take any meaning in a book and twist it too preach hatred and inspire impressionable people into doing unspeakable acts same could be said for other books of fictio n too like catcher in the rye and john lennon. All religions have them not just islam.

that patrol group you posted is off fanatics not ordinary muslims.

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

.......These are the people who, I believe, as soon as they start should be jailed or deported. No civil rights, no fancy lawyers. They ae here to disrupt our way of life.

......

Damon, in your post there are things I agree with and things I disagree with. But the above bit is what I want to respond to.

"Our way of life" is always changing. If it isn't dynamic it will die. The many groups of immigrants and refugees we have welcomed into Britain have contributed to the rich tapestry that, at its best, is Britain. Indeed, part of my own family came here as part of the migration from the Baltic in the early 19th century. There may rightly be concerns about our current ability to accommodate the recent large numbers coming here but that's another discussion. But, with some reservations, my view is that immigration is a positive thing for this country.

BUT, more importantly, and with reservations, "our way of life" includes tolerance and a respect for freedom of speech. It includes as a cornerstone of "our way of life" a respect for civil rights. I may find their speeches odious but nobody has the right not to be offended. I believe that forms an important part of "our way of life". If they are literally inciting violence that is another matter. That is illegal and should not be tolerated.

Not addressing you but others who have posted here & elsewhere words to the effect, "Why should we tolerate these people here - it wouldn't be tolerated in their countries." If you wish to reduce our behaviour in this country to the alleged lowest common denominator that you claim is to be found elsewhere it does make a mockery of what you aspire our country to be.

Don't disagree Knecht. Change is good - but when the change certain people are looking for is violent and evil (Sharia Law) - when the change those people are looking for includes chopping off the hands of shoplifters and non acceptance of people's right to choice of sexual preference, of dictating what women can and can't wear, what food can be eaten or what drinks we are not allowed to drink and the taking away of the right of free speech then those people have overstepped the mark of my tolerance level. Our tolerance levels are all different - generally (away from football passion) I am happy to live and let live. Chowdary and his like I cannot tolerate.

Australia has it about right imo.

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They would not tolerate this nonsense.

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