IF ....

Greenskin wrote:

Frank Bullitt wrote:

Its interesting to talk about a "circle" as an Argyle fan.

My first game as an 8 year old in November 1985 during the Dave Smith promotion season. Of course I thought football was always going to be like that and I was hooked. I was too young to understand the slide that followed due to the lack of investment. As a teenager I got excited about the Shilton years. The relegation to the 4th division was just a blip and Wembley made up for it all. I bought my first season ticket in the Hodges years and travelling around shithole grounds watching terrible football did not bother me. Away trips were fun and it was more about being on the beer with my mates then anything. Then the Luggy era began and like most of us I enjoyed the ride. But I remember looking around me and remembering the bad old days because I never thought it would last. I didn't predict the downfall of the Stapes era like others did, but I do remember being very disillusioned with the style of football in second Holloway season. Then I moved east and have only watched the collapse from afar.

But if Carl Fletcher and James Brent takes on another Luggyesque rise through the divisions I will never have the same passion as before. We won 2 championships in 3 years - one of them with 102 points. We saw 3 sides of the ground rebuilt. We had a reserve team for the first time in years and the club began to take itself seriously off the pitch. And in Pulis and Ollie we had 2 managers good enough to take our team to the premiership. And all of this with no investment from the board, during a time of massive investment in football when billionaires wanting to become millionaires were growing on trees.

Argyle's history is littered with blown chances.......and I don't think we will ever blow a bigger chance then we did in the years 2005-07. You old timers talk about the Waiters/Mariner era in the same way - the damage from that debacle lasted for decades, but I think this could be far worse.

Could well be,Frank.It would be interesting to see what gates would be like should we get on another run a la the Sturrock years of 2001-2005. It may well be that terminal disiilusionment has set in with thousands of supporters after this fiasco and they just won't return.You mention the Mariner affair-even in my limited contact area,i know of at least a dozen supporters [regulars,too] who have not set foot inside HP since,such was their exasperation at the club blowing a heaven sent opportunity to build a team around a great player.Same in the sixties too,in a different sort of way,players like Book,Jackson,Jones,Trebilcock and Jennings sold off,cheap,mostly over the hill replacements brought in,with the inevitable result.It was not brought about by low gates either-Argyle's crowds compared favourably with many other clubs who made progress and really established themselves as top level outfits and made almost certain that any future stays in the lower divisions would be very short ones.It's a cumulative thing really and it's why the club has engendered apathy and cynicism in the city and surrounds.I would say that the only way for the club to repair the damage long term is to reach the premiership,even of only for a season or two.And that looks a very long way off.It is nonsensical for people to state that the only way forward is for 20000 crowds to turn up at HP-it's putting the cart before the horse to an absurd degree and just won't happen.The onus is on Argyle to hit the heights and become a club for the wider populace to take pride in,otherwise,it'll be "same old,same old", perhaps,as you suggest,even worse this time.

Ha ha ! great minds think alike !

Lots of people making lots of good points, the first cut is the deepest, but the second, third and fourth prevent the healing.

On the bright side I think that Jones understands this and will build with these issues in mind, but it will be "that" much harder thanks to Stapes's exploits.

My view is that the crowds will start to come back if we have success. It's a bit like any entertainment - if it's not good people won't watch/buy the cd/attend the performance. Why should they pay for a sub-standard product? Mostly, I don't go for this "my club through thick and thin" argument. It might take me a while to make the decision - staying loyal and watching - but eventually if the product becomes consistently crap why keep buying it? Though I've been following them for 50 years and haven't been properly ever put off yet. I don't get there much nowadays because I'm broke - I need a rich sugar mummy.

I don't think success means a run of a few games - it means we are up pushing for promotion towards the end of the season. It's only then that the potential fan will begin to take notice. I can't see 20,000 crowds coming until we are pushing for the championship at least and probably not even then. There are too many other activities nowadays that compete for attention.

Nail on the head there FunnyMan!

WTF's going on today, everyone agreeing!!

It was a cleverly worded statement from the grassy Brent Knoll.
Basically he's saying he won't be investing in the football. How that fares alongside what is bound to be a debt mountain around the club's neck is anyone's guess.
It's beginning to look as if Jones is going to be the main man under Brent, and he will have been giving of his knowledge of Argyle's p word.
I am quite in favour of Jones, but am not sure he knows the answer any more than anyone else. It would appear there have been background murmurings of fans raising money, and I'm sure the 'mixed economy' Swansea model appeals to a lot of people. I quite like it, but the money men have to show willing first and not just ask fans to stomp up vulnerable equity while they just issue more secure or preferential loans. I also believe Jones will overestimate the amount of fiscal interest in Argyle itself. Who wants to invest in a club that is controlled by someone else.

A dodgy club I cannot agree with will still not see my return as a regular, success on the pitch or no .... the years since Gardner and Co came in have really killed something off inside. A heavy blow after the initial selfish ground purchase and the ludicrously bad timing of Sturrock chasing his dollar. And yes, 99% of televised football is like watching paint dry.
However, winning does increase the entertainment quotient for many people.

funny man wrote:

My view is that the crowds will start to come back if we have success. It's a bit like any entertainment - if it's not good people won't watch/buy the cd/attend the performance. Why should they pay for a sub-standard product? Mostly, I don't go for this "my club through thick and thin" argument. It might take me a while to make the decision - staying loyal and watching - but eventually if the product becomes consistently crap why keep buying it? Though I've been following them for 50 years and haven't been properly ever put off yet. I don't get there much nowadays because I'm broke - I need a rich sugar mummy.

I don't think success means a run of a few games - it means we are up pushing for promotion towards the end of the season. It's only then that the potential fan will begin to take notice. I can't see 20,000 crowds coming until we are pushing for the championship at least and probably not even then. There are too many other activities nowadays that compete for attention.

Good luck with the sugar mummy search. Have a word with Mock Cuncher, he's an expert with the ladies.

As I've said before and drawing on my long suffering experience of Argyle and attendances, we will again be able to pull in the regular 16k crowds after a few years of success/promotions. What went wrong again last time was that the city/region and some of the floating fans got bored with mediocrity at Championship level. By the time Holloway was getting together a decent side, crowds had slumped to about 12k. To me, the obvious reason was a lack of visible , cash backed investment.
The ground still wasn't finished. The training facilities were still amateur. The directors were clearly intent on keeping it to themselves and were trying to cement their own financial futures through property.
IF they had sought out a buyer, even a Manderic type, or invited in the consortium, the fanbase both real and potential would have begun to 'believe'. Both Stapleton and Pasoti blamed apathetic janners for staying away but that is the nature of the beast for a club with no top flight history. The only difference between us and the likes of Norwich, Ipswich and Southampton is history. That is where the fanbase is grown and cemented.
Next time, with Peter Jones hopefully involved, lessons will have been learnt.
Give the people a reason to believe and they will come. Everyone is not a diehard. It just doesn't happen like that, no matter how laudable the loyalty of the 5 thousand.

Tringreen wrote:

funny man wrote:

Though I've been following them for 50 years and haven't been properly ever put off yet. I don't get there much nowadays because I'm broke - I need a rich sugar mummy.

Good luck with the sugar mummy search. Have a word with Mock Cuncher, he's an expert with the ladies.

With a name like Cock Muncher - you're joking!

funny man wrote:

Tringreen wrote:

funny man wrote:

Though I've been following them for 50 years and haven't been properly ever put off yet. I don't get there much nowadays because I'm broke - I need a rich sugar mummy.

Good luck with the sugar mummy search. Have a word with Mock Cuncher, he's an expert with the ladies.

With a name like Cock Muncher - you're joking!

He is complicated I know but he does have talent.