EU,in or out ?

In.

If for no other reason, I hate the little Englander mentality: pull up the drawbridge and fight the enemy off; 'Fog hits Channel - Europe cut off'.

I see no contradiction between having a local identity and being part of a wider organisation. Did nobody play the "this is where I am" game as a child? My room, my house, my street, my area, my town, my country etc..... We can see our place in the wider picture without losing site of where we are.

I am never able to understand the concept of being 'proud' of a country. There are some things that Britain does very well - NHS, assimilation, queuing, jingoism for example. There are some things that we do very badly - forgetting that we no longer rule lots of the world, limiting bureaucracy, positivism for example. We have things to teach and things to learn.

No!No!No!

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In. Cameron is shitting it as he'll lose the next General Election unless he does something to get the unthinking voters to vote for him. Usually, that's a war but we can't afford one of those so the next best thing is get jingoistic and anti-Europe and tell people he's listened to them. The sad thing is, the Sun and Daily Mail readers will come out in droves and vote for an Up Yours Delores vote.

I'm European, I'm not British and 'friends with people who speak English'.

In addition, a referendum will cost a small fortune to organise and it comes out of your taxes. The recent Police vote we had where nobody bothered to vote (cheers for that one Dave) cost a lot more than people would imagine.

I’ll never understand the desire to turn what is a rational debate about finances into some sort of war on nationalism, but then, it wasn’t all that long ago that if you questioned such things you were tarred and stigmatised as some sort of racist. I always assumed it was a cheap shot that was fired when there was no logical argument that provided the evidence to back up a claim but maybe I was wrong, maybe it’s a lack of emotional education or an excuse for intolerant behavior when people cannot put forward a logical debate.

Neither should we be made to feel hollow if we have pride, it’s a vital emotion to have in the world of humanity and just as vital as any other emotion, we all have it at varying levels. Someone may have a higher level than me, that doesn't mean I am a better person because it’s how that pride is managed that is important.

Be proud to be a Janner, be proud to be English and be proud to be British and be proud to be European if you wish, the thing to remember is that it's how you manage that pride that is important. To not recognise it is just silly.

Happy Daze wrote:

I don't want to be European
I don't want to be British (even less being called a brit)
I am English and proud of it

So the European parliament can piss off and a out vote from me

Perhaps if a few more people where to take a deal of pride in being English (not in an EDL way though) then perhaps we wouldn't be in the state we find our selves in.

The history of the English has every sort of awful behaviour, failures and stuff to be ashamed of - like every other country in the world. I see the mantra of "proud to be English" as evidence of wearing blinkers that enables the wearer to ignore the negative.

I'd go for a balanced view myself - recognising the good but not forgetting the bad.

My children have on one side of the family an Austrian grand-mother and a Bavarian great-grand-mother (plus an Austrian great-grand-father who fought against 'us' during the war). And on the other side of the family a Scottish grand-father and a Prussian great-great-grand-father. Should they not be proud of England, Scotland, Austria & Germany? There are also Hungarian and Scandinavian links and even Cornish! Maybe it makes more sense to talk about being a human being?

GOB wrote:

I’ll never understand the desire to turn what is a rational debate about finances into some sort of war on nationalism, but then, it wasn’t all that long ago that if you questioned such things you were tarred and stigmatised as some sort of racist. I always assumed it was a cheap shot that was fired when there was no logical argument that provided the evidence to back up a claim but maybe I was wrong, maybe it’s a lack of emotional education or an excuse for intolerant behavior when people cannot put forward a logical debate.

Neither should we be made to feel hollow if we have pride, it’s a vital emotion to have in the world of humanity and just as vital as any other emotion, we all have it at varying levels. Someone may have a higher level than me, that doesn't mean I am a better person because it’s how that pride is managed that is important.

Be proud to be a Janner, be proud to be English and be proud to be British and be proud to be European if you wish, the thing to remember is that it's how you manage that pride that is important. To not recognise it is just silly.

I'm not proud to be anything GOB, I just realise that in a global World, you can't be self sufficient and we need as many allies as we can - having those on your doorstep and sharing a common history and a relatively similar culture helps that allegiance along.

I once had a meeting with a Cornish bloke who'd just sold his business to a French company - I'd got him in as all of a sudden, the service bacame terrible and I was getting him in to give him an ultimatum that he either improved or I'd give him the boot - his response was, "what do you expect, we're a French company now so that's why we've got lazy" - we need to be looking further than our coastline and Europe will happen with or without us - it's best to be in and involved at the top rather than just withdrawing.

There's more to this than the shape of cucumbers.

A good and evolving debate!

One day we will all be coffee colored humanist, but evolution won't be rushed.

I don't believe that pride is something that you can be geographically associated with from birth, race or colour, it's what is felt in the heart that counts. If I moved to the Bahamas tomorrow I may well be proud to live there and I may well be proud of that country.

Firstly society should provide and allow free opinion, secondly society should educate.

hairy j wrote:

GOB wrote:

I’ll never understand the desire to turn what is a rational debate about finances into some sort of war on nationalism, but then, it wasn’t all that long ago that if you questioned such things you were tarred and stigmatised as some sort of racist. I always assumed it was a cheap shot that was fired when there was no logical argument that provided the evidence to back up a claim but maybe I was wrong, maybe it’s a lack of emotional education or an excuse for intolerant behavior when people cannot put forward a logical debate.

Neither should we be made to feel hollow if we have pride, it’s a vital emotion to have in the world of humanity and just as vital as any other emotion, we all have it at varying levels. Someone may have a higher level than me, that doesn't mean I am a better person because it’s how that pride is managed that is important.

Be proud to be a Janner, be proud to be English and be proud to be British and be proud to be European if you wish, the thing to remember is that it's how you manage that pride that is important. To not recognise it is just silly.

I'm not proud to be anything GOB, I just realise that in a global World, you can't be self sufficient and we need as many allies as we can - having those on your doorstep and sharing a common history and a relatively similar culture helps that allegiance along.

I once had a meeting with a Cornish bloke who'd just sold his business to a French company - I'd got him in as all of a sudden, the service bacame terrible and I was getting him in to give him an ultimatum that he either improved or I'd give him the boot - his response was, "what do you expect, we're a French company now so that's why we've got lazy" - we need to be looking further than our coastline and Europe will happen with or without us - it's best to be in and involved at the top rather than just withdrawing.

There's more to this than the shape of cucumbers.

Yes Hairy I recognise those points and getting back on topic....

In a nutshell & simplistically....

I just see so much red tape and such an uneven distribution of wealth that it makes my stomach turn. If we really are going to have a "Europe" then why hasn't all the dosh been chucked into one pot, why haven't the the wealthy Italian companies been paying taxes, why didn't the Greeks pay any taxes, why aren't American companies paying their European taxes.....I could go on but you can fully understand why America doesn't like the idea of us leaving, because McDonalds would be forced to pay taxes!

Now I don't believe for a minute that little old England will have it all easy or have all the answers, far from it, but it'll be easier to control and we'll have a better idea where the taxes that we do pay are going. Better to just have one bank account then 200, the bank fees are less......And I know that's the whole idea behind Europe but Europe isn't adopting it's own values!

The secret is to keep an eye on the finances while at the same time employing European values, the values that Europe doesn't really have but likes to impress that it has.

hairy j wrote:

I'm European, I'm not British and 'friends with people who speak English'.

What, grew up speaking European did you ?

OUT out OUT OUT
Unelected bureaucrats influencing our laws and taking our money with no audited accounts for 13 years. I voted to be part of a trading market not the United States of Europe . If you're in, you're all in, none of the others are, they pick and choose.

I love Nick (F not C)

I dunno.

Out.

The French an ze Germans have too many cars to sell to sever all ties with us, and we'll send some chaps with round helmets over to re-colonise Ireland. Portugal have always been our allies, and how bothered am I that we won't have trading ties with Greece or Italy? Not very!

Of course it'll make those weekends staying in the family estate in Normandy slightly more awkward, but it's more than worth it to bloody the nose of Jean-Pierre and the Hun - ROARRR!

In. But it would be good if someone had the balls to stand up to the electorate and popular press and say why it benefits us all. No way will Cameron allow a referendum, he when he didn't have one on the Lisbon treaty despite offering a 'cast iron guarantee'. The stupid tw@t is just trying to stop the swivel eyed element of his party from trying to get Boris in place and protect his vote from ukip as Hairy says.

Pokesdown wrote:

Absolutely in. Our island mentality is one of our curses of geography. It may give us Ben Ainslie (sailing toff) but it also (for some reason) seems to generate a sense of superiority to the rest of Europe.

Look at any barometer of the quality of life within Europe:

The gap between the richest 5% and the poorest 5%
Poverty
Child pregnancy
Smoking rates
Alcohol consumption
Air quality
cost of travel
quality of public services
Maternity/Paternity allowances
Pre School coverage and costs

My guess (because frankly I can't be arsed to do the research) is that we will finish high up all those lists.

The question should really be why would the rest of Europe want such a basket case of a country when all it does is try to sit outside the rules. This debate simply does not happen to this extent in the rest of Europe.

Just like Germany! All getting worse here too! Most cities in the old West are now almost bankrupt.

In for me.

We know what we have now. We don't know what will happen if we leave and isolate ourselves.

Far better to try and influence change from within.

Also it's about time we adopted the euro!

OUT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

But camoron (SPIT) is only 'promising' a vote to head off UKIP who are fast becoming a threat to the comfortable three party collusion system. All three 'main' parties are rabidly pro-EU, pro-international big business and international banking and none of them will ever allow a vote that could end with an 'out' vote. So any referendum will be a choice between 'in', 'out' or a 'third way' fudge. So most votes will go to 'in' and the fudged 'third way' option which will be the same as voting 'in'. The British people will be conned on Europe again. There is absolutetly NO democracy allowed when it comes to the EU.

in,,,all the way,

tcm wrote:

in,,,all the way,

Ooer! vicar

As Freathy says, Fletchout, Cameronout, Europeout, Brentout, Whiteout,!!!!!!!
Out for me. Put the borders back up properly, fook the eastern europeans, fok all of them.England for the English, Scotland can fook off as well, keep the money we give to the scots, keep the money we give to Europe and start making things again, and no I dont feel guilt or a loss of pride about slavery of anything else, that wasn't me, I doubt any of my relatives had anything to do with it either.

Undecided. Out here in the land of Arabs with socks, they only apply the EU regulations they like, otherwise they ignore them.

Maybe we should do the same.

Happy Daze wrote:

tcm wrote:

in,,,all the way,

Ooer! vicar

prozackly,,,,never pull out till your done,,,enjoy the ride

Out as soon as,European socialist republic,no feckin thanks

Uk contributes £53mil per day to EU.

If we left the EU would have even more spare eurocrats since we are the only state that takes any notice of the constant stream of directives that hamper our activities.