EU,in or out ?

Not for a few years and only if Cams gets another term.What would you vote ?

Out.

I doubt (hope) that very few of the electorate are gullible enough to believe that Cameron has any intention of allowing a vote on leaving the EU. There's no way that Cameron wants to leave the EU - this 'promise' is just a ploy to nullify UKIP and make back some ground in the polls.

I suspect that if they do get back in there will be a Cleggesque u-turn on the referendum or, more likely, the devil will be in the detail and the referendum won't be for a straight in/out vote, but an In option A/In option B vote. It's the same as Cameron talking tough on tax avoiders, while his party actually makes tax avoidance easier. There are too many vested interests from the companies that fund the Conservatives (and Labour for that matter) for any of the major parties to seriously consider withdrawing.

Massive................................OUT!


We done this in work a few weeks ago and it was something like 90% wanting OUT. It'll be interesting to see what ATDers think.

In because in my opinion there is very little choice anymore. We are so far entrenched in it that to escape now there would have to be a European war. However, it would be a reluctant in vote because there is so much wrong with it and it needs fixing. 25 years from now despite any protestations from those that don't want it I can see one parliament and that will be Brussels for the whole of Europe. England will cease to exist as a single nation.

Absolutely in. Our island mentality is one of our curses of geography. It may give us Ben Ainslie (sailing toff) but it also (for some reason) seems to generate a sense of superiority to the rest of Europe.

Look at any barometer of the quality of life within Europe:

The gap between the richest 5% and the poorest 5%
Poverty
Child pregnancy
Smoking rates
Alcohol consumption
Air quality
cost of travel
quality of public services
Maternity/Paternity allowances
Pre School coverage and costs

My guess (because frankly I can't be arsed to do the research) is that we will finish high up all those lists.

The question should really be why would the rest of Europe want such a basket case of a country when all it does is try to sit outside the rules. This debate simply does not happen to this extent in the rest of Europe.

Pokesdown, there's no reason why we shouldn't finish high up that list even if we were not in Europe.

Basket case of a country? Compared to Germany they are 'better off', we're even with France and above the rest, that's hardly a basket case.

And this is a ballot not a discussion GOB so leave off the influencing of outcomes. Single opinions please.......one post per person (not counting this one which I know is two but I had to......... )

GOB wrote:

Pokesdown, there's no reason why we shouldn't finish high up that list even if we were not in Europe.

Correct Gob. I guess the point I'm making is that we have a false sense of superiority in this country, in my opinion of course. This whole debate about leaving Europe seems to have little credence with economists and businessmen but in the main seems to be peddled by right wing middle aged white blokes - I am of course referring to the people we see representing this opinion in the media and not my brothers and sisters on this obviously superior island of a website swimming in a common market of shite peddled by other websites

GOB wrote:

Pokesdown, there's no reason why we shouldn't finish high up that list even if we were not in Europe.

Basket case of a country? Compared to Germany they are 'better off', we're even with France and above the rest, that's hardly a basket case.

Who is better off? In Bhutan they measure gross national happiness instead of GDP. I think they are ahead of their time. What's that Madness song again...

This is still the life for many people...



You say richer, who is? It is the fair distribution of income that is important. No point if it is only concentrated in the few.

As the Torygraph says:

Rich Poor Gap

Anyway enough of this left wing nonsense I'm on the train in 6 hours time with a 2 hour commute to London. Now who is a hypocrite

I'm a middle aged left bloke and so is pretty much everyone that I work with.

I'm not totally against Europe and there are things that have been brought in that have helped lower/working class, such as H&S etc. but, at the same time the gap between the wealthy and the poor has grown massively and as we read every day, the wealthy and the company owners don't like to pay their taxes that us little'ens nee to pay for our social services, NHS etc.

We're also unusual in Europe that we have a massive expenditure of a National Health Service and thank God that we do, when Europe also adopts an NHS then I may reconsider.

I'm also not all that keen about Europe's WW3 ambitions with our soldiers used to prop up Europe's Asian oil fields or Europe's African minerals.

I'll stop here or I'll be at it all night!

Pokesdown wrote:

GOB wrote:

Pokesdown, there's no reason why we shouldn't finish high up that list even if we were not in Europe.

Basket case of a country? Compared to Germany they are 'better off', we're even with France and above the rest, that's hardly a basket case.

Who is better off? In Bhutan they measure gross national happiness instead of GDP. I think they are ahead of their time. What's that Madness song again...

This is still the life for many people...



You say richer, who is? It is the fair distribution of income that is important. No point if it is only concentrated in the few.

As the Torygraph says:

Rich Poor Gap

Anyway enough of this left wing nonsense I'm on the train in 6 hours time with a 2 hour commute to London. Now who is a hypocrite

You have just proved my point, the wealth gap is huge and growing while we're in Europe. - I'm a bit confused, nothing unusual there!

The Bhutan idea is the way to go, no doubt about it!

Pokesdown wrote:

The question should really be why would the rest of Europe want such a basket case of a country when all it does is try to sit outside the rules. This debate simply does not happen to this extent in the rest of Europe.

Well possibly they might miss the circa £10 billion we pay into the annual budget and the circa £30 billion more a year we buy from them than they buy from us.

The EU with their rapidly stagnating economies and the inability of half the members to fund their existing debts let alone those which will accrue when the various currently unstated financial positions unwind are the basket case old chum. We on the other hand are a bit of a clusterfook but in essence we could stand or fall on our own efforts rather than relying on the Greeks and Spanish, independence from the Euro would give a decent player a pretty flat field of play, unfortunately we seem to consistently pick the sorts of teams that Fletch used to put out. Cameron is a clot, Clegg a clown and Millepede a muppet, the people they would entrust with the running of the country are no better, we is forked whether we be in or out of an ever more federalist Europe, me, I want out, I voted to stay in '75 when we sold a bill of goods by the filthy lying bastards Wilson and Heath, one of each colour and both as rancid, may they rot in hell.

We shall once again be offered the worst of any deal, Cammy will convince the sheep who are probably far too scaredy cat to vote for any change and there are more than enough on the gravy train to bulk out the vote, they will say we have a great new deal like the triple headed whore of Grantham did, fook 'em all.

We 'could' also start to manufacturer again, anyone remember those days?

In and in fully, not this half assed sort of in we are at the moment. We should be adopting the Euro and not be seen to be dragging our heels all the time.

If we ever did leave the rest of Europe would delight in shunning us and making trade harder for us.

Whether it was the right thing to join in the first place is another question, but now we're in we have to commit fully in my humble opinion.

Gawd this could be worse than the v pasoti scrap

Greenjock wrote:

In and in fully, not this half assed sort of in we are at the moment. We should be adopting the Euro and not be seen to be dragging our heels all the time.

Sorry Jock you will have to wait for the Sweaty vote on the issue which will involve Alec sucking whatever dick the French, your natural lords and masters, shove in his face.

Healthy debate GOB. Nobody has anything to gain out of it whatever their view is, just interesting to see how others feel.

Personally I think some people are hung up on this old fashioned notion of how Britain is and how Europe is. The world has moved on but some people still hanker for the days when Britain ruled half of the world.

Alex Salmond can suck anyone's dick he likes, he doesn't really want or believe that Scotland will become independent of the rest of Britain. Cameron is a wanker but he called salmond's bluff alright.

Scotland is a region of Britain nowadays, not a country in its own right.

Greenjock wrote:

Scotland is a region of Britain nowadays, not a country in its own right.

And here's me sat watching Braveheart.

I know Jock, I was puylling at your plonker...emm not literally of course!

I'm quite proud to be a Janner, I'm also proud to be English and I'm also proud to be British and I see no shame in any of that. Neither do I understand how that has anything to do with the European debate, it's just a kop out for a 'no debate'.

When Europe adopts an NHS, forces the wealthy to pay taxes and not just the middle and lower earners, adopts company laws that prevents companies from using tax avoidance, promotes values of equality rather then steal wealth etc. then I may just start to feel proud of being a European.

It's the European Empire, we had one once and look what that done.

I bet you were all cheering on the European Ryder Cup team though.

IN and influencing

Lord Tisdale wrote:

Greenjock wrote:

Scotland is a region of Britain nowadays, not a country in its own right.

And here's me sat watching Braveheart.

Good film but total bollocks.

I'm hoping for a European Bigfoot Hunters Society so we can all pool our resources and knowledge. The yeti and Bigfoot could become interchangable with greater trade and tourism links. That will only happen in a united Europe.

If we're not careful Bigfoot will be making megabucks for Japan or Australia and we'll be left with the odd big cat sightings which will hardly boost our economy. What will tourists be willing to pay good money on, a possible sighting of a fat moggy in Norfolk which has a tearoom and a giftshop selling fridge magnets and car stickers or Sasquatchland with the Bigfoot rollercoaster and yeti burgers?

Russia will soon cash in on the Almas mystery and we need to be having better trade ties or we'll be left with a coachload of grannies from the BBC, British Bigcat Club, paying £2.50 each twice a year to visit Derbyshire and examine possible lynx droppings.

I don't want to be European
I don't want to be British (even less being called a brit)
I am English and proud of it

So the European parliament can piss off and a out vote from me

Wait and see what develops over the next 20 years, that should see me out of it,

out