Match thread for the massive derby

greengenes wrote:

Angry of Mayfair wrote:

Czarcasm wrote:

Why oh why does Argyle somehow avoiding a loss, always result in greengenes piping up on ATD?

Because he has no mind of his own and obviously feels the need to try and say Fletcher i good everytime he does his job correctly and gets a point or 3. When fletcher goes on another losing streak im sure he will stick with the other deluded bunch on the other place and talk about how things are looking great now we have mural instead of investment in the club. hit pasties instead of fans in the seats and a club so out of touch with its own city a calendar shop can get away with stocking exeter city and torquay utd merchandise without a word said to them.

Are you a fuckwit ? - I WANT FLETCHER TO GO - I'VE SAID IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN !

Yet you only come on here to champion him when he gains a point or 3 hmmmm

Angry of Mayfair wrote:

just saw the goal... No one going to mention it took a deflection to go in then lmao

Both goals were deflections,to be fair.

Angry of Mayfair wrote:

greengenes wrote:

Angry of Mayfair wrote:

Czarcasm wrote:

Why oh why does Argyle somehow avoiding a loss, always result in greengenes piping up on ATD?

Because he has no mind of his own and obviously feels the need to try and say Fletcher i good everytime he does his job correctly and gets a point or 3. When fletcher goes on another losing streak im sure he will stick with the other deluded bunch on the other place and talk about how things are looking great now we have mural instead of investment in the club. hit pasties instead of fans in the seats and a club so out of touch with its own city a calendar shop can get away with stocking exeter city and torquay utd merchandise without a word said to them.

Are you a fuckwit ? - I WANT FLETCHER TO GO - I'VE SAID IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN !

Yet you only come on here to champion him when he gains a point or 3 hmmmm

Are you for real ? can you read ? Or do you read and post from a script you wrote several weeks ago ?

greengenes wrote:

Angry of Mayfair wrote:

greengenes wrote:

Angry of Mayfair wrote:

Czarcasm wrote:

Why oh why does Argyle somehow avoiding a loss, always result in greengenes piping up on ATD?

Because he has no mind of his own and obviously feels the need to try and say Fletcher i good everytime he does his job correctly and gets a point or 3. When fletcher goes on another losing streak im sure he will stick with the other deluded bunch on the other place and talk about how things are looking great now we have mural instead of investment in the club. hit pasties instead of fans in the seats and a club so out of touch with its own city a calendar shop can get away with stocking exeter city and torquay utd merchandise without a word said to them.

Are you a fuckwit ? - I WANT FLETCHER TO GO - I'VE SAID IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN !

Yet you only come on here to champion him when he gains a point or 3 hmmmm

Are you for real ? can you read ? Or do you read and post from a script you wrote several weeks ago ?

Speaks like a true bear too lol

I think GG came here thinking we're all happy with a point against our "fiercest rivals" (sic webby you tw@t). It's the wrong mindset but innocent.

GG...We're crap and that is all that matters.

Coxside_Green wrote:

I think GG came here thinking we're all happy with a point against our "fiercest rivals" (sic webby you tw@t). It's the wrong mindset but innocent.

GG...We're crap and that is all that matters.

Im happy we didnt lose naturally as im sure everyone (i'' make the exception for our city friends) is. But by all accounts its a point snatched not a point earnt and sadly i dont see a point as something to wank over when we need to be winning games. By the way we are 4 points off the relegation zone.

feck me I missed all the kerfuffle on this thread! Bloody mother yapping on about people I don't know and will never meet.

So it was a point which was better than I expected, even though our city chums did say they are better away from home, and better still as we were behind.

I still don't think Fletcher is the man for the job but unless ward has been offered the dof role and the other candidates been rejected, only for ward to prefer the now vacant rovers job, then Fletchers safe for a while.

We're still in the shit but not right up to our necks in it where we would've been without our 4 points from the last two games. We won't go down but lower reaches of this dogshit league is nowhere near good enough. Another sending off too. Not going to help over xmas. I thought the comms said it was a straight red, anyone know if it was?

So rovers have sacked McGhee which will make it interesting to see if their fortunes improve now. I thought they would be challenging for promotion this season so what do I know? Fletcher might be a genius and I wouldn't have a clue.

If we go on a ten game unbeaten run now, only 8 more to go guys, will this change anything for you? To me it's what we should be doing anyway so not really for me, but it would ensure Fletchers safe for the season and probably beyond. Then it would be the chance to completely strip the squad bare and start afresh. Goodbye to Chadwick, Feeney, Williams and Griffiths unless we start playing two upfront from now and he scores regularly from then on.

More realistic will be the odd win, odd defeat and a lot of draws. Another wasted season and nothing to set the pulses racing. Enough for Fletcher to keep the job for next season? I hope not but fear it might be.

Still, unbeaten in two away derbies. Look how far we've come.

Treated like animals, poor performance to be honest, didnt really deserve anything, pretty happy with a point at the end mind.

GreenWhiteBlack wrote:

Treated like animals, poor performance to be honest, didnt really deserve anything, pretty happy with a point at the end mind.

The irony is that when a vocal majority of the support marches through the streets behaving like scum, they shouldn't be surprised that the authorities treat them as such.
We've probably all 'been there' in the past but this is the 21st century ffs.
Football attracts the moronic element of society.

Listening on the radio, Chris Webb is not this pro-Fletch sheep that some like to paint him as. He wasn't pleased that we started one up front and wasn't pleased when Gurrieri was taken off and he certainly wasn't there as a club sponsored ambassador - he even stated at one point that the club needs to either back Fletcher in January or get rid of him.

Interesting point from the above for me was that Mr President did deride Griffiths up front on his own and commented that he wouldn't have scored the amount of goals he did for his previous club as a lone striker. Just because he's 6ft + doesn't mean he should be used as a target man - target men don't score that many goals. People seem to think Griffiths isn't up to this standard but perhaps the issue is, Fletcher isn't playing the formation that Griffiths is used to - another striker up there with him is a must. Perhaps Feeney and Griffiths up front together would yield more goals.

hairy j wrote:

Listening on the radio, Chris Webb is not this pro-Fletch sheep that some like to paint him as. He wasn't pleased that we started one up front and wasn't pleased when Gurrieri was taken off and he certainly wasn't there as a club sponsored ambassador - he even stated at one point that the club needs to either back Fletcher in January or get rid of him.

Interesting point from the above for me was that Mr President did deride Griffiths up front on his own and commented that he wouldn't have scored the amount of goals he did for his previous club as a lone striker. Just because he's 6ft + doesn't mean he should be used as a target man - target men don't score that many goals. People seem to think Griffiths isn't up to this standard but perhaps the issue is, Fletcher isn't playing the formation that Griffiths is used to - another striker up there with him is a must. Perhaps Feeney and Griffiths up front together would yield more goals.

Webb has woken up at last from his boy scout style positivity. I have seen nothing from him previously that indicates anything other than satisfaction with the way the club was/is being managed.
20th in the bottom division, on a competitive budget, with a large squad and attendances in the top few, would suggest to anyone that something is wrong, somewhere ?

You play one up front when you have a class forward like Evans in your team, who was a master at that role. He didn't score many but sure as hell set up countless opportunities.
Argyle's problem isn't Griffiths can't score, the problem is no one can, particularly the midfielders... ie..the team he has assembled is very poor for this league.

Someone should tell him the best teams play to their strengths... and strangely the blinkered Webb and Sparks, for once, were on to that particular case...almost as if it were pre planned in a similar manner to their pointless attacks on so called fickle fans and moaning janners... maybe Fletcher really has at last been rumbled. He seems hell bent on playing a certain way that doesn't suit his sub standard manpower. He's just packing the midfield with dross and presenting it as passing football..... but it has nowhere to go.... it's just 5 a side tippy tappy. The mistake has been too many players, not enough quality, and now the dummy is stuck with it.

Can't see many fans, who were guarded enough to avoid a season ticket, bothering for much longer. My brother, after much guffawing on my part, has at last dropped down to a 6 ticket "membership" this season and yet he still hasn't used one ticket. He's running out of games

hairy j wrote:

Listening on the radio, Chris Webb is not this pro-Fletch sheep that some like to paint him as. He wasn't pleased that we started one up front and wasn't pleased when Gurrieri was taken off and he certainly wasn't there as a club sponsored ambassador - he even stated at one point that the club needs to either back Fletcher in January or get rid of him.

Interesting point from the above for me was that Mr President did deride Griffiths up front on his own and commented that he wouldn't have scored the amount of goals he did for his previous club as a lone striker. Just because he's 6ft + doesn't mean he should be used as a target man - target men don't score that many goals. People seem to think Griffiths isn't up to this standard but perhaps the issue is, Fletcher isn't playing the formation that Griffiths is used to - another striker up there with him is a must. Perhaps Feeney and Griffiths up front together would yield more goals.

Agree with every word of that- Griffiths either needs a striker partner or if not then we'd need to play a PROPER 4-3-3, with the wide forwards playing more an inside forwards than extra midfielders as we're used to.

I don't think Griffiths is a bad player, I'd say he's certainly up to this standard. I think if he had a striker who knew where the need was next to him he could be an assist machine. That's the trouble with us at the moment though, there's always a lot of ifs and caveats next to everything that could be considered a positive. Rarely is anything at the club right now a stand alone shining positive in its own light.

Thing about our strikers is, we have a lot of strikers who would be decent enough playing as a secondary striker. Griffiths, Feeney, Madjo (for all his praise that he's been getting, he's no scorer) to name just three are players at this club who can't score goals but are capable of offering other stuff with regards to the build-up, good distribution, high pressing, winning balls etc as secondary strikers. I'd say Sims and Lecointe fit into this as well from what I've seen of them. But what ALL of those players need is either a strike partner or two forwards up there with them. They're no good on their own. I wouldn't put Chadwick into this category as I'd say he's just plain rubbish as any kind of striker.

The only player at the club who even remotely resembles a goalscoring striker is Paris Cowan-Hall and I wouldn't even say he is a particularly good one. Maybe Tyler Harvey too I suppose but he's an unknown quantity at present. None of our strikers aside from Paris have scored more than one league goal in open play this season. Griffiths, Madjo, Feeney and Chadwick have one each. Lecointe has none. That really is a truly atrocious statistic. I genuinely think any of those players bar Chadwick would be competent secondary strikers at League 2 level (although that may be a tad generous to Feeney) but there is NO use playing them without a scoring striker and I don't get why Fletcher cannot see that.

I haven't seen Argyle play since last season, overall I thought we were much improved, what hasn't improved are the tactics, we looked like we were setting up for a draw from the start, when we go 1 down fletch has a think for twenty minutes then goes two up front like he should have done from the start and we could have won the game until Wankard got sent off. I think it is unfair judging players harshly when the tactics are to blame.

Iggy wrote:

I haven't seen Argyle play since last season, overall I thought we were much improved, what hasn't improved are the tactics, we looked like we were setting up for a draw from the start, when we go 1 down fletch has a think for twenty minutes then goes two up front like he should have done from the start and we could have won the game until Wankard got sent off. I think it is unfair judging players harshly when the tactics are to blame.

Absolutely. The great imponderable to me is why Brent thinks/says that Fletcher has managerial talent, when every indicator suggests otherwise.

Tring, I believe Brent's ardour for Fletcher is straight out of the patient businessman routine played so badly by Todd. He thinks quality control is a factory formula that needs consistent management.... and, he thinks it bad form, don't you know, to flail around like some football oik, sacking people at the drop of a baseball hat. Like Todd, he's wrong of course. Sporting success is often the opposite of good housekeeping and clean sheets. It's about momentums, personalities and belief ... so far from anything he knows.

we only come alive when it 4-4-2


eventually fletcher will spot this and drop 4-5-1 as we dont have the player to play it.

Iggy wrote:

until Wankard got sent off. I think it is unfair judging players harshly when the tactics are to blame.

Brilliant Iggy. You've contradicted yourself quite magnificently there. Have you got a hangover?

Man,we had some good luck yesterday for a change.

We played the get out of jail card for free and it paid off.

Credit to Chadwick and Feeney for upping the game when they came on.

It was not a classic game,but a derby for firsts...

hairy j wrote:

Iggy wrote:

until Wankard got sent off. I think it is unfair judging players harshly when the tactics are to blame.

Brilliant Iggy. You've contradicted yourself quite magnificently there. Have you got a hangover?

Why? Blanchard was rash as feck in the second tackle and already on a yellow I think? If it was straight red it is even worse. Blanchard as a player I think is alright, getting sent off when we could have gone on and won the game IMO is really feckin stupid and had nothing to do with Fletches tactics or are you suggesting that I meant that Fletches tactics were the reason that Blanch got sent off? I am not hungover or pissed just on my usual meds. They make me a bit fuzzy, you dont help either.

VillageGreen wrote:

Man,we had some good luck yesterday for a change.

We played the get out of jail card for free and it paid off.

Credit to Chadwick and Feeney for upping the game when they came on.

It was not a classic game,but a derby for firsts...

We did have good luck, Cureton going wide twice when both times I thought oh feck here we go again, it's just such a pisser after that not taking the opportunity to get another goal, both these sorts of things are the difference between a promotion team and and mid table team, neither city nor us are in the promotion bracket.

Tringreen wrote:

hairy j wrote:

Listening on the radio, Chris Webb is not this pro-Fletch sheep that some like to paint him as. He wasn't pleased that we started one up front and wasn't pleased when Gurrieri was taken off and he certainly wasn't there as a club sponsored ambassador - he even stated at one point that the club needs to either back Fletcher in January or get rid of him.

Interesting point from the above for me was that Mr President did deride Griffiths up front on his own and commented that he wouldn't have scored the amount of goals he did for his previous club as a lone striker. Just because he's 6ft + doesn't mean he should be used as a target man - target men don't score that many goals. People seem to think Griffiths isn't up to this standard but perhaps the issue is, Fletcher isn't playing the formation that Griffiths is used to - another striker up there with him is a must. Perhaps Feeney and Griffiths up front together would yield more goals.

Webb has woken up at last from his boy scout style positivity. I have seen nothing from him previously that indicates anything other than satisfaction with the way the club was/is being managed.
20th in the bottom division, on a competitive budget, with a large squad and attendances in the top few, would suggest to anyone that something is wrong, somewhere ?

Too right. It's taken The President longer than most (I think Pasoti's Esmer is last man standing) and his reaction so much more muted than you would expect of a union firebrand. it's hard to criticise Fletcher when you've stood shoulder to shoulder with him on a quasi picket line.

As for the game I'm glad it's over. Too much of a distraction. Too many people happy to poke fun at the club up the road with their little open stand and low attendances when the point is what the heck are we doing playing a club with a little open stand and low attendances.

As for Griffiths is not the answer to the striker question unless the question is 'name the player which a club bought as a striker from non league and hopelessly placed all their hope on him when he was out injured and continued to do so despite limitless evidence that he wasn't up to it?'

Beyond the extreme anxiety I always feel in this game, I found it an interesting chance to see whether or not the general ATD view of the playing side was fair, or just the common phenomenon of fans moaning.

Without blowing smoke up anyone's ar*e, IMO it is absolutely spot on, if that game is anything to go by.

Everything I've read about Fletcher here was visible in glorious technicolor. You had spots of neat football, but with less goal threat than even us at our worst. If it hadn't been for a superb strike by Lennox, who I thought was an extremely bright player, I couldn't see you scoring if you were still playing today.

The tactics were quite baffling. If you're going to play one up front, then at least give the poor b**ger some support. It was blindingly obvious that the system was totally ineffectual, yet for some bizarre reason Fletcher left it until late to change things - I suspect out of desperation rather than any great tactical masterplan.

The decision to take off Guerreri was baffling - until he went off he was the standout player in an attacking sense and certainly seemed to be the main one giving drive and energy to the side in the "hole". In fact even though it obviously wasn't his main position, IIRC he was the only one out wide on the occasions when he popped up on the right.

The most curious thing about Fletcher's approach is his complete failure to take advantage of our main weakness.

I would imagine that every single side in the League is aware of the glaring fault we've had this season - certainly all apart from you have obviously gone out to exploit it.

In a nutshell, that is our horrific defending from crosses and wide set-pieces. I'm not sure of the exact figure, but a staggering proportion of goals against us have come from this route - possibly because we have virtually a new back-four at times. You could see the problem for yourselves when Purse was left completely free from a corner, but put in a poor header.

Like all the other teams, you started out attempting to exploit this, but after a relatively short time stopped trying for some inexplicable reason and started fannying about. To be fair the initial attempts were more often set-pieces - again, it was strange that you didn't, or wouldn't go for us down the flanks and attempt to turn us, given that for all their other qualities, we have possibly the slowest defence in League 2.

Before the supporters of Brent and Fletcher get carried away, I think they need to bear in mind a couple of other important things.

First of all is the fact that by contrast, we created a number of good chances and on another occasion Cureton would have put away at least one of his two, not just 9 times out 10, but 99 times out of a hundred. So while you were possibly better in terms of the number of decent spots you had in the game, we carried by far the greater goal threat and on another day things could very well have been different.

Secondly, you have to factor in that you were playing a side that is anything but top seven at home. We are not just better away - strangely we are very good away at times, but have often been horrific at our place. After all we were even worse than a dreadful Chesterfield side and worse than an even poorer Wimbledon side in the second-half. I believe we have a decent team, but it is a new team, with all the teething troubles that brings. It didn't help to begin with an appalling home defeat - I think some of the players have struggled for confidence ever since. I could see that coming through against you, along with anxiety once you equalised. A team that carried any goal threat that day might have caused us serious problems. Of course the attitude away - and thus the performance - is totally different. Even some of the few defeats we've had have been against the run of play.

It might amuse some of you to hear about an exchange which makes it seem clear to me that Purse is in the ATD camp as far as Fletcher is concerned.

During a period when we were on top and there had been no real goal threat at all, Fletcher was doing that ostentatious thing where managers bark out instructions and gesticulate as if they are implementing some tactical masterplan. (The tedious Mourinho writes deliberately in a notepad too, just so we all know that what a wily genius he is.)

One of the Dutch managers was once on Five Live, claiming that most of the time this is utter b*ll*cks and is done purely in a cynical attempt to manipulate the opinion of fans and observers.

I guess Purse is of that opinion too, because from my position near the dugout I witnessed him furiously give Fletcher both barrels in reply. The gist of it seemed to be that Purse was telling Fletcher to make up his fecking mind and that your former captain had no clue what he was doing. Interestingly Fletcher appeared to have no comeback and sheepishly turned and walked away.

I hate to see managers pilloried or sacked - these are human beings with families to support and their livelihood at stake. I have alot of time for the way Fletcher conducts himself and his abilities as a player, but everything I've seen and read makes me think that Fletcher is not ready for management in these circumstances. IMO he is there as the Reluctant Bidder's cheap option, who can draw on a certain amount of goodwill to deflect the flak that would be directed against someone with no previous connections to the club.