Would Sturrock Mark 1 have been able to win promotion under Brent ?

Was thinking earlier on how Sturrock Mark1 would have faired had Brent been in charge instead of Stapleton.

Personally I think he'd have taken a couple more years assuminghe didnt get fed up in the meantime, he wouldnt have been able to make the wholesale changes to the playing staff that he made - he just about brough a new team in during 2000-2001 to replace Hodges' signings.
Also any 'derisory' bid for a player could be rejected back then Im not so sure now ANY bid would be rejected.

I do recall he played a part in the non footballing areas of the club.

Fletcher re-signed many that weren't his signings and he's signed a fair few of his own. Sturrock didn't sign anyone at all for any kind of real fee. Given that, I don't see too much that's dissimilar.

One thing that's changed is the loan market - it seems now that every single lower league side sign the maximum amount of loan players that they can.

I'm not sure why us fans are constantly looking at Sturrock as this legendary manager - he won us two promotions but did nothing at Championship level. For me, Pulis and Holloway are the two best recent managers we've had. Pulis would get us out of this league - Holloway probably wouldn't as we'd lose every game 5-6.

Fletcher had every opportunity for a mass clear out in the close season should he have chosen to. Sturrock has legendary status with most fans because he gave us the best few seasons following Argyle in their lifetime, for me 50 years as a fan. The ONLY Argyle manager to oversee 2 promotions, both with huge points totals. All this Sturrock could only manage in the lower leagues is cobblers as far as I'm concerned. Given the budget, resources and a level playing field with his competitors I am confident his abilities would have come through in the Championship no problem. At Argyle he came back to a club in freefall, the crown jewels sold. He made some make do signings on the budget he had and also showed his eye for players by bringing in the likes of Johnson, Mackie, Noone and Barnes who have since proved their worth in the Championship. He was sacked in November for Mariner and there is no guarantee he wouldn't have cobbled together the half dozen extra points to keep us up with his experience against Mariner's even if his hands would have been even more tied the next year and relegation probably inevitable due to the finacial crisis and looming administration. At Wednesday following promotion he comfortably kept them in the Championship despite having one of the lowest budgets and a squad decimated by injuries that season. In the Premier at Southampton his brief reign saw him attain more points per game than any Saints manager since McMenemy and Southampton were also a club in turmoil at the time with relegation the following season after Sturrock's departure. If Sturrock had been appointed the same time as Fletcher and had to make the emergency and short term signings Fletcher had to make to stave off relegation I think he would at the end of the season probably have been a little more ruthless and had more of a clear out and used the summer and early season to bring in his own players, working with a smaller squad with maybe more emphasis on quality in key positions. It is all conjecture though. In reply to the OP I think if Sturrock had a competitive budget under Brent and by that I mean one of the largest 6 to 8 in the division then with his experience and ability yes he would get us promotion under Brent no problem.

I don't think there's a better manager out there for Leagues 1 + 2 than Sturrock.

If he was manager under Brent I reckon he would have released pretty much the entire squad at the end of last season and built his own team from scratch.

Obviously a couple of players would've been retained but he certainly knew what it takes to get out of this League.

He almost managed it with financially stricken Southend last season on crap gates, he did it with us, and was responsible for our promotion to the Championship.

He also got Swindon and Sheffield Wednesday promoted without exactly breaking the bank, but with Wendies and then latterly with us, he does appear to struggle in the Championship. I say appear because we will never know what would have happened if he had turned down Southampton all those years ago.

We had momentum back then and went on to have some of the best players ever seen in Argyle shirts, and with Sturrock still in charge of a winning team, we would have been getting gates approaching 20k week in week out.

It still hurts me to think about what might have been back then. I don't know what Sturrock was promised at Saints, but somebody at Argyle should have offered Sturrock the world to stay on here.

A new improved contract and a "competetive budget" might have swung it in our favour. The chance to finish what he had started from scratch. It may have taken a couple of seasons to adjust but I think he would have gotten us into the play-offs within 3 years, but we will never know for sure.

If only Jock if only. If he hadn't gone to Saints I agree the momentum and feel good factor with Sturrock could well have seen the impossible dream happen within a few years.

It doesn't take much to get out of this appallingly shite division. Sturrock Mk 1 would have got us competing at the right end of the table in spite of the specky banker's best efforts to keep us down. In fact give me Sturrock Mk 2 over carl the clueless any day. I'd even take Bobby williamson over carl the clueless.

FLETCHER OUT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Freathy wrote:

It doesn't take much to get out of this appallingly shite division. Sturrock Mk 1 would have got us competing at the right end of the table in spite of the specky banker's best efforts to keep us down. In fact give me Sturrock Mk 2 over carl the clueless any day. I'd even take Bobby williamson over carl the clueless.

FLETCHER OUT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Freathy, there's 4 promotion places in this league and there's 24 teams. There's a 16.6 (recurring) % chance of promotion. That means there's an 84% chance that you won't get promoted. You have to play 46 games and you would need, if last season was a benchmark, to attain 72 points from those 46 games to be in with a chance of promotion. Over 1.5 points per game are required and that means you need to get more out of every game, on average, over those 46 games than a draw. To simply state that it doesn't take much to get out of this appallingly shite division is both factually, statistically and mathematically incorrect. This view however does support your online persona of being a moaning minny with a one track view of a club you refuse to go and watch.

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hairy j wrote:

Freathy wrote:

It doesn't take much to get out of this appallingly shite division. Sturrock Mk 1 would have got us competing at the right end of the table in spite of the specky banker's best efforts to keep us down. In fact give me Sturrock Mk 2 over carl the clueless any day. I'd even take Bobby williamson over carl the clueless.

FLETCHER OUT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Freathy, there's 4 promotion places in this league and there's 24 teams. There's a 16.6 (recurring) % chance of promotion. That means there's an 84% chance that you won't get promoted. You have to play 46 games and you would need, if last season was a benchmark, to attain 72 points from those 46 games to be in with a chance of promotion. Over 1.5 points per game are required and that means you need to get more out of every game, on average, over those 46 games than a draw. To simply state that it doesn't take much to get out of this appallingly shite division is both factually, statistically and mathematically incorrect. This view however does support your online persona of being a moaning minny with a one track view of a club you refuse to go and watch.

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What a very poor reply. A better manager with better tactics, better training and better contacts would give us a better chance.

hairy j wrote:

Fletcher re-signed many that weren't his signings and he's signed a fair few of his own. Sturrock didn't sign anyone at all for any kind of real fee. Given that, I don't see two much that's dissimilar.One thing that's changed is the loan market - it seems now that every single lower league side sign the maximum amount of loan players that they can.

I'm not sure why us fans are constantly looking at Sturrock as this legendary manager - he won us two promotions but did nothing at Championship level. For me, Pulis and Holloway are the two best recent managers we've had. Pulis would get us out of this league - Holloway probably wouldn't as we'd lose every game 5-6.

I would say that there are dissimilarities between Sturrock and Fletcher in terms of resources.Transfer fees are not the issue,most of Sturrocks signings [with the exception of Evans] were Bosman types,as have been Fletchers.But there is no way that players like Hodges,Coughlin,Keith,Worrell,Bent,McGlinchey and Evans [all permanent signings playing at a higher level than Argyle were-Sturrock didn't have to basically rely on the loan market for players of some pedigree] would have come here without being paid decent wages.I believe that the club was being bankrolled by Nick Warren at the time,the same Nick Warren who resigned on principle when the freehold was purchased in 2006.There was also a nucleus of young but experienced players on the books when Sturrock took over-Stonebridge,Wotton,Phillips,Adams and Beswetherick had already played a considerable amount of games,Fletcher had no such benefit,most of our similar talent had already been sold off.Having said that, Sturrock did take over a bomb site at Southend and seemed to do a pretty good job at rebuilding it very quickly-maybe the value of his experience and contacts did come into play in that respect.

One thing was proved last season and that is you have to be impossibly poor to get relegated from this league. There are only two to go down, and now a constant stream of former non league clubs returning to their proper level with their sub 2000 crowds, stripped off the best players that gave them their almost meteoric rise up the leagues.

As for promotion, there is a history of big clubs like us , Burnley and Wolves for instance, that have spent donkey's years in the bottom divisions, when it has been something more deep rooted at the club holding them back than the normal cyclical thing that is often a formailty to overcome.
A quick "Lase Virren" and you're off and running. I wonder when we'll be booked into the clinic .

I still sense for some strange reason, too much of the old blood and some of the bad ways has survived the cull that should have happened ( we even have former owners still believing they have done nothing wrong banging down the doors ), and that will inevitably show itself on the pitch.
Would someone please knock on my cryogenic freezer when it's all over.

Greenjock wrote:

I don't think there's a better manager out there for Leagues 1 + 2 than Sturrock.

If he was manager under Brent I reckon he would have released pretty much the entire squad at the end of last season and built his own team from scratch.

Obviously a couple of players would've been retained but he certainly knew what it takes to get out of this League.

He almost managed it with financially stricken Southend last season on crap gates, he did it with us, and was responsible for our promotion to the Championship.

He also got Swindon and Sheffield Wednesday promoted without exactly breaking the bank, but with Wendies and then latterly with us, he does appear to struggle in the Championship. I say appear because we will never know what would have happened if he had turned down Southampton all those years ago.

We had momentum back then and went on to have some of the best players ever seen in Argyle shirts, and with Sturrock still in charge of a winning team, we would have been getting gates approaching 20k week in week out.

It still hurts me to think about what might have been back then. I don't know what Sturrock was promised at Saints, but somebody at Argyle should have offered Sturrock the world to stay on here.

A new improved contract and a "competetive budget" might have swung it in our favour. The chance to finish what he had started from scratch. It may have taken a couple of seasons to adjust but I think he would have gotten us into the play-offs within 3 years, but we will never know for sure.

Bang on Jocko.

It frustrates me that this looks like panning out to be a 'nothing' season. The middling mediocrity of the squad means that relegation shouldn't be a danger. Yet while we have a YTS manager learning his trade and making his mistakes 'on our manor', the play-offs are a distant dream.

I think we finished around 12th two seasons running in the Hodges era, and were just bimbling along doing nothing. The current regime probably has 12th place and no further aspirations as their 'Plan A'.

Brent needs to learn that in this division, you don't have to speculate wildly, to accumulate. Just a little in the right places - a manager and coach with a touch of pedigree, to start with.

Alas it seems the Brent/Fletcher combo will probably be looked upon in years to come as 'the mundane years'.

Serious question .... does anyone know what Sturrock's record was like in his first season as a manager in Scotland?

Not sure about his first season, but his first managerial position was with St.Johnstone and his stats were, played 190, won 90, drew 56 and lost 51 so a win percentage of 45.69% which isn't too shabby for an unfashionable Scottish league club.

I also wonder if Fletch is merciless enough to cut it at this level. He started off playing with most of these players (and you have to be matey with team mates) and is now their manager, I think he is worrying about hot get the best out of poor players that should have been axed this summer.

hairy j wrote:

Freathy wrote:

It doesn't take much to get out of this appallingly shite division. Sturrock Mk 1 would have got us competing at the right end of the table in spite of the specky banker's best efforts to keep us down. In fact give me Sturrock Mk 2 over carl the clueless any day. I'd even take Bobby williamson over carl the clueless.

FLETCHER OUT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Freathy, there's 4 promotion places in this league and there's 24 teams. There's a 16.6 (recurring) % chance of promotion. That means there's an 84% chance that you won't get promoted. You have to play 46 games and you would need, if last season was a benchmark, to attain 72 points from those 46 games to be in with a chance of promotion. Over 1.5 points per game are required and that means you need to get more out of every game, on average, over those 46 games than a draw. To simply state that it doesn't take much to get out of this appallingly shite division is both factually, statistically and mathematically incorrect. This view however does support your online persona of being a moaning minny with a one track view of a club you refuse to go and watch.

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Quoting statistics only works if every club is operating on a level playing field. Unfortunately for your bland assertion, there are too many variables at play for the figures you quote to be anything other than the innacurate ramblings of someone who has little understanding of statistics, probability and mathematical variables. But if I were to draw on my academic experience as a statistician I'd probably bore the arse off of everyone reading this. So I'll say that, in my humble opinion (as someone with a decent qualification in Maths and Statistics) you're wrong Hairy. and Freathy is closer to the truth. An experienced lower-league manager, a properly competitive budget, a clear run on injuries and well-mixed squad are some of the variables involved, and if you can sway those factors in your favour, the percentage chance of gaining promotion also moves in the right direction.

Sorry, I forgot to say BRENT OUT! FLETCHER OUT! to gain popularity points.

Clueless again, I am so ashamed.

My learned friend makes some very reasoned arguments without once saying Brent or Fletcher out, I think you lost that one hairy.
Ps. you must be the only person I know that doesn't fit in on either site, very very good work.

We are well on course for a "nothing season" czarcasm, there is no knowledge, no ambition, no commitment to REALLY gain promotion, from Brent, the owner who won't even fork out for a pot of paint!

Iggy wrote:

My learned friend makes some very reasoned arguments without once saying Brent or Fletcher out, I think you lost that one hairy.
Ps. you must be the only person I know that doesn't fit in on either site, very very good work.

I'm on my own side. That's why I'll be the next President when Chris Webb has had enough of people making hilarious jokes about him on the internet.

I think you missed the part of Freathy's post that said FLETCHER OUT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - he put enough exclamation points on the end of it you blind twonk.

Sorry I feel too full of self importance to read every post.

Iggy wrote:

Sorry I feel too full of self importance to read every post.

Fair enough. Freathy says it so often, it's more like a nervous twitch than actual words anyway

I see Freathy's wise words as more of a mantra than a tic. A useful daily tool in life ... unlike Fletcher.

Sturrock would have pissed this division. It's far worse than when we won it.

I would have to question whether a manager with Luggy's managerial credentials would even entertain managing under Brent in the present climate, let alone get us promoted.

Last season we learnt Walton signed a new contract whereby he took a reduction in salary but his overall length of contract was extended. He wasn't alone either. With the club now being shy disclosing details of certain contracts (ie length of contract), who knows what behind the scene deals are in place this season to further reduce the wage bill?.

Furthermore, I'm just guessing but it's my belief there's a newly imposed salary cap in place which is making it almost impossible to bring in players of any real calibre on a full time basis (I'd be surprised if any of our new summer signings are on over a grand a week). I doubt Luggy Mk1 would've been able to bring in the quality he did bring in under the present circumstances, thus making promotion an almost impossible task for any manager. Maybe in a few years (by which time Brent will likely be long gone) but not now.

I agree that Sturrock would have gone a long way to get us out of this division and I cannot wait for the promised book which will shed light at what went on during his second spell.

For me the best manager Argyle have ever had.