All 3 Devon clubs after Little Messi

An 8 year old kid who has been dubbed "little Messi" by his 8 year old team-mates has been offered deals at Argyle, City and Torquay. He's based in Paignton so Torquay should be favourites and his brother also trains with Torquay (but that road from Paignton to Torquay is shit so its probably quicker to get to Plymouth ).

Could he be a Rooney or Cherno Samba?

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Chemical Ali wrote:

An 8 year old kid who has been dubbed "little Messi" by his 8 year old team-mates has been offered deals at Argyle, City and Torquay. He's based in Paignton so Torquay should be favourites and his brother also trains with Torquay (but that road from Paignton to Torquay is shit so its probably quicker to get to Plymouth ).

Could he be a Rooney or Cherno Samba?

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Fecking shameful to put that much pressure on a kid so young.Pound to a penny he'll never make it to pro level.

Greenskin wrote:

Fecking shameful to put that much pressure on a kid so young.Pound to a penny he'll never make it to pro level

What pressure?

Pressure from his parents, mates or the various development centres he has been attending? Kids love to play football and the only concern I would hold for him is the amount of travelling involved going down to Plymouth and up to Exeter; but his parents are quite rightly having a good look at all the options open to him as to where he can develope under the coaches of their choice.

No-one of less than under 9 age group (academic year 4) can be signed on any form of "contract" by any club and then, such contracts can only run for one season until they reach academic year 7 in preparation for u13 football when the periods can be for 2-4 years.

Parents MUST be aware however that in order to take advantage of such a contract, their child's registration is then lawfully held by the club until school leaving age unless they decide to release him ~ either with or without compensation payable by either the parents or any other club who wishes to sign him. So whilst you can take your child away from a club you cannot put him into another one unless they are satisfied they have recovered their "investment" of time and effort into him.

Where I live in North London it is quite common for under 6s 7s and 8s to attend various development and pre-academy centres before making up their mind as to where to commit.

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My own son was attending 3 separate clubs (Arsenal, Spurs & Watford) on 4 nights a week last season before settling on Watford where he is now in their academy as an u11. He had also had invitations to trial at a number of other clubs in London, The South East and The Midlands.

In my opinion, kids DO need to be receiving the type of coaching a good professional club will provide at as early an age as they can get it as with the passing of each year it gets harder and harder for them to break into the academy or CoE system where skill and physique alone will not provide them with the technique the others will already have by then of how to retain possession of the ball through body positioning, body strength and win it off opponents through using the correct techniques.

Good luck to the kid ~ wherever his parents choose to commit him!

Merse what are you thoughts on the youth set ups of the three Devon clubs? Argyle are losing Gordon Bennett which seems to be a big loss?

Chemical Ali wrote:

Merse what are you thoughts on the youth set ups of the three Devon clubs? Argyle are losing Gordon Bennett which seems to be a big loss?

I think that as far as their finances will allow them they appear to be doing a good job whilst ALL arriving at this current point in time ~ the start of EPPP

Exeter City have been running their system for years now and have been regularly producing players fit for purpose to go into their First Team squads and be sold on for the benefit of player and club alike.

Plymouth Argyle have repeated the very injurious error that Torquay United did 9 years ago of downsizing (Torquay even closed theirs under Mike Bateson) and removing the finances necessary to run an adequate scheme..........the situation at Home Park will take a lot of retrieving and it could not be at a worse time given the financial impositions of EPPP.

Torquay United's current ownership made the re-establishment of a good development system their priority after regaining Football League status and they duly set out from day one of ownership of a Football Conference club through the opening of their own Centre of Excellence and their Development Centres throughout the South West Pennisula.

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It takes a good few years for a freshly launched or re-launched system to realise the investment, so I would imagine that at this moment in time Plymouth Argyle will be somewhat disadvantaged when set against both Exeter City and Torquay United...........a big fall for what was historically a very productive youth development set up.

I think it is very important for the entire bank of footballing talent that exists in the South West that all three Devon clubs operate to the very limits they can and Torquay United have just commited an annual budget of over £110,000 pa in order to in turn to receive twice that amount allowing £6,000 per week to be used in providing a Level 3 Academy if the footballing authorities decide that the facilties they will have warrant that.

Interesting to note that Yeovil Town have decided not to pursue those objectives and have in effect given up on providing any more than a Level 4 academy which will preclude them from contracting any one under the age of 16 in the future. When I looked into their "predicament" it transpired that last season they were only commiting £600 a week of their own money into running their Centre of Excellence ~ the wage of just one player I would contend ~ and THAT was joke in itself given the amount of moaning and groaning emanating from there over the "imposition" of EPPP!

merse wrote:

Greenskin wrote:

Fecking shameful to put that much pressure on a kid so young.Pound to a penny he'll never make it to pro level

What pressure?

Pressure from his parents, mates or the various development centres he has been attending? Kids love to play football and the only concern I would hold for him is the amount of travelling involved going down to Plymouth and up to Exeter; but his parents are quite rightly having a good look at all the options open to him as to where he can develope under the coaches of their choice.

No-one of less than under 9 age group (academic year 4) can be signed on any form of "contract" by any club and then, such contracts can only run for one season until they reach academic year 7 in preparation for u13 football when the periods can be for 2-4 years.

Parents MUST be aware however that in order to take advantage of such a contract, their child's registration is then lawfully held by the club until school leaving age unless they decide to release him ~ either with or without compensation payable by either the parents or any other club who wishes to sign him. So whilst you can take your child away from a club you cannot put him into another one unless they are satisfied they have recovered their "investment" of time and effort into him.

Where I live in North London it is quite common for under 6s 7s and 8s to attend various development and pre-academy centres before making up their mind as to where to commit.

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My own son was attending 3 separate clubs (Arsenal, Spurs & Watford) on 4 nights a week last season before settling on Watford where he is now in their academy as an u11. He had also had invitations to trial at a number of other clubs in London, The South East and The Midlands.

In my opinion, kids DO need to be receiving the type of coaching a good professional club will provide at as early an age as they can get it as with the passing of each year it gets harder and harder for them to break into the academy or CoE system where skill and physique alone will not provide them with the technique the others will already have by then of how to retain possession of the ball through body positioning, body strength and win it off opponents through using the correct techniques.

Good luck to the kid ~ wherever his parents choose to commit him!

Well, the rather obvious pressure of labelling a kid as "little Messi" and duly exposing him as such in the local press.How many child prodigies have you seen given such treatment in the past and are essentally burnt out by the time they reach puberty? If you need proof of what exposure of this kind can do,here's a salutary reminder;

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It isn't a question of coaching [which i agree with] or any of the other matters that you mention,it's exposing the kid to the extraneous stuff that would be my objection-just imagine the clogging that the kid could come in for in future from people who would revel in messing up "little Messi",not to mention the peer group piss taking [not of the banter variety,either] that will inevitably come forth should he fail to match up to the rather stupid label attched to him.Ever wonder how much damage the "next £10m player" handle that Alan Ball stuck on Buster Phillips did?

Greenskin wrote:

Well, the rather obvious pressure of labelling a kid as "little Messi" and duly exposing him as such in the local press

Well yes fair enough Greenskin, your point there is a pertinent and a good one.

I think the parents should have opted not to have done that publicity stunt with the local paper as (and I have alluded to earlier) there are many kids attending and attracting the attentions of various clubs at that age.

No-one, knows how an 8 year old will develope and the vital age is when they reach 16 and decisions have to be made whether or not the lad is good enough to be offered a youth scholarship, then 2 years down the line whether he is worthy of a development pro' contract.

Many kids get heavy and ungainly when they hit puberty and that does for their pliability and ability to demonstrate their technique ~ in short you just don't know you can merely hope until development is complete.

My boy has been a local character and little star in his local estate "cage" since he was 5, but he is just one of many and as such never had those sort of tags put on him. When these kids get into academies they go from being the local star to just one of the crowd, and some can't cope with that.

As one academy manager said to me whilst talking about coping with being released: "It's not the boys we have the problems with (they are often fine and remain pro-active enough to try elsewhere) it is the ruddy parents who cannot handle the 'rejection' as they see it" and it's the same with the parent who cannot shut up whilst his son is being managed on the pitch or coached in sessions..........THEY jeopardise their own son's futures and THEY ruin their own son's chances. Whilst it's a great thrill to have a son who is a football talent one cannot live one's life through their gift but must willingly settle for the huge amount of commitment in both time and money in getting them here there and everywhere and relentlessly attending after school training sessions.

merse wrote:

Greenskin wrote:

Well, the rather obvious pressure of labelling a kid as "little Messi" and duly exposing him as such in the local press

Well yes fair enough Greenskin, your point there is a pertinent and a good one.

I think the parents should have opted not to have done that publicity stunt with the local paper as (and I have alluded to earlier) there are many kids attending and attracting the attentions of various clubs at that age.

No-one, knows how an 8 year old will develope and the vital age is when they reach 16 and decisions have to be made whether or not the lad is good enough to be offered a youth scholarship, then 2 years down the line whether he is worthy of a development pro' contract.

Many kids get heavy and ungainly when they hit puberty and that does for their pliability and ability to demonstrate their technique ~ in short you just don't know you can merely hope until development is complete.

My boy has been a local character and little star in his local estate "cage" since he was 5, but he is just one of many and as such never had those sort of tags put on him. When these kids get into academies they go from being the local star to just one of the crowd, and some can't cope with that.

As one academy manager said to me whilst talking about coping with being released: "It's not the boys we have the problems with (they are often fine and remain pro-active enough to try elsewhere) it is the ruddy parents who cannot handle the 'rejection' as they see it" and it's the same with the parent who cannot shut up whilst his son is being managed on the pitch or coached in sessions..........THEY jeopardise their own son's futures and THEY ruin their own son's chances. Whilst it's a great thrill to have a son who is a football talent one cannot live one's life through their gift but must willingly settle for the huge amount of commitment in both time and money in getting them here there and everywhere and relentlessly attending after school training sessions.

Indeed so-as a friend of mine,well known in local football circles said to me once-"it soon puts 'em off football when they find out that Billy Whizz is not Billy Whizz".I knew exactly what he meant and have seen examples time after time-some parents think that it because their kid is good,the path to the top is an easy one,but life ain't made that way.One of the most revealing bits of that Sonny Pike article is where one of the coaches says "very skilful,can pass it but lacks pace".No matter how good you are technically,if you can't get around the pitch adequately to stay with the pace of the game,you're not going to be a pro footballer.If Messi is to be taken as an example,then the most obvious quality that he possesses is the ability to show explosive pace over a few yards to hammer home and emphasise his technique-without that,he would be nothing like the same player.If that kid doesn't either retain/ develop pace over the next few years,then he won't be a pro footballer,as simple as that and it's truly absurd to burden him with such expectations at his age.

Greenskin wrote:

here's a salutary reminder;
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Sonny Pike's case was an extreme of the very worst examples I can think of, but for every Sonny there is a Joe Cole, a Jermaine Defoe, Sol Campbell or Ledley King ~ ALL from similar inner London backgrounds.

The very reason I chose Watford for my son was because of their excellent reputation of balancing football with educational and general holistic progression within their academy. Monthly contact between his academy education officer and his head teacher means that any hint of a bad attitude, distracted mind as to education or poor social intreractivity with his peers would result in a suspension of his football coaching forthwith and that is unequivocal. Watford too have a record second to none of bringing so many of their boys through to First Team football.

All those lads I mentioned above did well at school, lived good and balanced lives during their development years and reaped the rewards. Whilst I never opted for the easiest of logistical commitments in taking my son to Watford ~ we use a combination of public transport and lifts to make the return journey from near The Emirates Stadium where we live three times a week ~ neither would I (at primary school age) have signed him away to any club because (a) they were "local" or (b) were so far away his young life would be totally disrupted and entirely centred around becoming a footballer.............just too much pressure on a young mind in my opinion.

Apart from Joe Cole (who's dad was a taxi driver) those other lads came from single parent families of little income and plenty of other commitment needed to their siblings, but through hard work, focus and dedication on behalf of them and their parent they "made it"; and that's what I (don't really have to) preach to my son all the time. He finds training and being coached a fantastically enjoyable experience, so never has to be reminded to get to bed in good time or get up in good time; but the last thing either he or any of his compatriots need right now is a father employing an agent, allowing exraneous activity such as Sonny Pike always seemed to be doing and in my opinion the worst thing Sonny Pike ever did was leave Leyton Orient, get involved with Chelsea and then Ajax.

Some times when I look at my son sitting on The Metropolitan Line train eating his pasta meal on the journey straight from school to Harefield Academy I wonder what he must be thinking whilst his mates are by now out playing at home, but as he tells me he has lots of other mates within the Watford Squad too and THEY all go through the same life style and interact through social networking on the evenings they are at home in various locations from Harlow to Reading to Inner London..........he's thoroughly enjoying his experience!

Got to agree that the pressure comes from the parents most of the time where this is involved. My lad has been with Derby County for the last year with their under 7 squad and has just been retained for next year at under 8, he was also at Forest but decided he didn't want to go there anymore as it was more fun at Derby so we took him out. Some parents I know of lads not in "the system" were amazed that we let him make the decision and were not "encouraging" him to go because of the opportunity!!! All I can say is that from our point of view we have spoke with him and said to enjoy it whilst it lasts and that he can go as long as he enjoys it. Parents make the "being there and the subsequent rejections" a big thing, not the kids they just want to play football.

On a separate but sort of connected point I think the new FA rulings on Youth Development will really help over the next coupe of years to change attitudes at all levels and hopefully then the whole system including grass roots can then develop lots of little Messi type players.

Greenskin wrote:

No matter how good you are technically,if you can't get around the pitch adequately to stay with the pace of the game,you're not going to be a pro footballer.

Very true GS.
This city and country has always been full of folk saying their sons are fine footballers, but in truth they were actually quite, quite hopeless. If football were all about ball control, the game would be called juggling, and played out in the mind... it's played by athletic men, not 10 year old superstars with neatly ironed socks.

For me the most important thing, once one has the basic skills, is the vision and understanding thing, then physicality and confidence.... and I don't mean the make believe vision of Steve "he's too good for this team" Maclean.

Merse, your post overlapped mine. From the hard work point of you and the value of the coaching your are spot on with the boys and how they are treated, but also and I think most importantly my son now has in his words "lots of other mates" outside of his school circle of friends,and when he sees them on a sunday, as at this age they can still play for their local teams as well and to hear them talking about what they did at training and the pride they have in how hard they work to get and stay there always makes me smile. I think even at this age they appreciate that they do give up evenings down the park or going to a mates for tea as they have to be in for training 3 nights a week but they love it and get to play football more than there mates and football is what they enjoy most.

just because he is good now, doesnt mean he will be good in 10 years time.. get real folks!!!!

Penz wrote:

Greenskin wrote:

No matter how good you are technically,if you can't get around the pitch adequately to stay with the pace of the game,you're not going to be a pro footballer.

If football were all about ball control, the game would be called juggling, and played out in the mind... it's played by athletic men, not 10 year old superstars with neatly ironed socks.
For me the most important thing, once one has the basic skills, is the vision and understanding thing, then physicality and confidence....

All of this is true, but without total mastery of the ball athleticism and physicality is rendered obsolete.

The implications of the imposing of smaller sided games on smaller sized pitches for youngsters will increases touches of the ball and less periods of mental switching off for future generations.

Spain and Barcelona have shown that you do not to be a physical giant to be athletic, but of course in this country (and particularly at the lower levels of the game well below Football League status) there are coaches and managers who are substituting technique with a form of "base line tennis" played out by giants.

Even at the highest levels of our domestic game there has been a mass import of humongous African athletes to play amongst the finest of our own production lines. How has that improved our game or international credentials? Bringing in some brick out house to knock seven bells out of the opposition is short termism of the lowest denomination in my book.

I could take you now to various academies and CoEs around the country where squads as young as 10 and 11 are dominated by the physically advanced and advantaged. Half of those boys will have disappeared out of the system by the time they reach 16 and the smaller but more technically gifted players they oppose will keep the ball for fun and tire them out!

merse wrote:

Penz wrote:

Greenskin wrote:

No matter how good you are technically,if you can't get around the pitch adequately to stay with the pace of the game,you're not going to be a pro footballer.

If football were all about ball control, the game would be called juggling, and played out in the mind... it's played by athletic men, not 10 year old superstars with neatly ironed socks.
For me the most important thing, once one has the basic skills, is the vision and understanding thing, then physicality and confidence....

All of this is true, but without total mastery of the ball athleticism and physicality is rendered obsolete.

The implications of the imposing of smaller sided games on smaller sized pitches for youngsters will increases touches of the ball and less periods of mental switching off for future generations.

Spain and Barcelona have shown that you do not to be a physical giant to be athletic, but of course in this country (and particularly at the lower levels of the game well below Football League status) there are coaches and managers who are substituting technique with a form of "base line tennis" played out by giants.

Even at the highest levels of our domestic game there has been a mass import of humongous African athletes to play amongst the finest of our own production lines. How has that improved our game or international credentials? Bringing in some brick out house to knock seven bells out of the opposition is short termism of the lowest denomination in my book.

I could take you now to various academies and CoEs around the country where squads as young as 10 and 11 are dominated by the physically advanced and advantaged. Half of those boys will have disappeared out of the system by the time they reach 16 and the smaller but more technically gifted players they oppose will keep the ball for fun and tire them out!

I think the smaller pitches and goals is a good idea, but this idea about making the matches non-competetive where the score is irrelevant seems less of a good idea to me.

I know plenty of parents push their children too hard and are ultra competetive, often to the point of taking the enjoyment out of the game, but kids do like to compete sometimes, and learning to win and lose sportingly and graciously is important. Seeing children who are cocky and big-headed when they win is awful, and so is seeing children who are bad losers.

The result shouldn't be the be all and end all, but I do believe there are important lessons to be learned from winning and losing.

Greenjock wrote:

I think the smaller pitches and goals is a good idea, but this idea about making the matches non-competetive where the score is irrelevant seems less of a good idea to me.

I respect that point of view but I think the intention is to minimalise the occasions where very technically good and imaginative players are somewhat intimidated into not trying their skills for fear of giving a game away.

It's a difficult one to come to a satisfactory conclusion over but I feel that generally the more skilled the boys the less the result of a game becomes a thing of importance for them.

At present under 8 football in my part of London is played non competitively, so results are neither recorded nor published and therefore league tables are not collated ~ a very good thing in my opinion but I bet you every time I ask one of the kids I know how they got on they will not only tell me the result of their last game but how long it is since they got beaten!

Some of the best games you can give very young kids as a stimulus and coaching tool in the pre-academy years (under 8 and younger) are those where conditions are imposed so that a goal can't be scored without a stated minimum number of passes being put together or conversely; a period where only a maximum number of passes are allowed before a shot must be despatched............believe me, those so young CAN cope with those impositions and of course they make for very good training disciplines throughout their careers!

Jock, I have yet to see a non competitive game of Junior football, every single player wants to win and in time will learn to win and lose with grace. The idea of no league tables will stop coaches who think they are the Mourinho of Junior football from stopping the less talented players from taking part in a game that may decide the league title, or parents having a go at coaches who do play the lesser talented ones in that game and they make a mistake that does lose the game.

It gives all players time to learn the game and develop ability before the dubious (in my opinion) practice of maybe playing a certain way to win 3 points becomes prevalent.

I can see why this is going to be introduced, and I guess once the real talented children have been identified, then there is time for the competetive edge and a sporting mentality to be introduced.

I suppose that's where the coaches will be important and hopefully will be able to keep the kids interested in the match when the score isn't being recorded. And like Merse says, I suppose the kids will be keeping their own personal tally anyway.

Will be interesting to see if it bears fruit in the future, instead of British players always looking cumbersome compared to other country's players who are comfortable on the ball from a young age, like the Ajax educated youngsters.

Daz Evans wrote:

The idea of no league tables will stop coaches who think they are the Mourinho of Junior football from stopping the less talented players from taking part in a game that may decide the league title, or parents having a go at coaches who do play the lesser talented ones in that game and they make a mistake that does lose the game.
It gives all players time to learn the game and develop ability before the dubious (in my opinion) practice of maybe playing a certain way to win 3 points becomes prevalent

Agree with al of that and witnessed all of that.

Add on the coaches who try to keep interest in a player from a pro club from his parents, who obstructively try to hang on to those players and keep them at a level they have outgrown and who truculantly fail to "be happy" for those lads who do eventually move onwards and upwards.